Newcomer / Intro I don't get core mining... a bit...

[WreckRoot]

A bit of context...
Whenever I have a little time to relax, I go core mining. I find it to be the most interesting of the activities on offer and I typically manage to score about 9-12 cores an hour.

However, there's a couple of things I don't get.

1. PWA seems erratic... a lot.
My understanding of the PWA is as follows. You click, there's a "ping", after the ping the asteroids are highlighted for ~1 second in one shade ("phase 1"), and then for ~4 seconds in a slightly different shade ("phase 2"). Asteroids are highlighted differently based on range, angle (best results straight ahead) and... something about their composition... but the important part is that core asteroids are highlighted differently than others, except some fake small ones that you can differentiate by shape/size.
All in all, I think I'm pretty good at spotting cores, to the point that I don't even have to check for fissures. Whenever I shoot a prospector based on highlight alone, it's a core, and given that I can find one every ~4-5 minutes on average (incl. extraction time), I think I "got this".

However, sometimes PWA just plays dumb with me. Symptoms include:
- highlights disappearing after half a second.
"phase 1" lasts literally half a second and there's no "phase 2", highlights vanish. huh?
- "phase 1" highlights different asteroids than "phase 2".
I see an asteroid highlighted and then suddenly the highlight disappears and another nearby asteroid gets it. huh?
- different asteroids highlighted between activations.
Yeah... I shoot once, I see an asteroid lit up. I head in its direction, I fire PWA again and... nothing. huh?

What's up with that?

2. Seismic charges seem erratic.
My understanding of the seismic charges is that you should pump the blow-o-meter until it's in the blue zone. How much a single seismic charge bumps the meter depends on how long you charged it and on the strength of the fissure (low strength fissures bump the meter fast, high strength fissures by much less) and on the total strength of all fissures. I also try to hit the fissures at a straight angle and in the middle, though I'm not certain if it makes a difference. Whenever I end up detonating, the blow-o-meter is all in the blue, sometimes a handful of columns alternate between blue and orange (below), never red.

However, even if the meter is all blue, very often it goes red upon detonation, with a message saying "Optimum yield range exceeded! Yield forecast poor."
Below is just the last case where I purposefully "undercharged" the asteroid, but I've had the same happen even if all bars are 100% either 1 or 2 blue squares, never red.

Spoiler: what the hell?

Any idea what's up with that?

 

[Para Handy]

I ignore the optimum yield error message - I am sure it is just an unsquashed bug. If you are in the blue (not showing any red before detonation) then the yield is fine.

PWA is pants - I really hate it big time - it changes in Odyssey so if you are going to be using that then wait to see if it is any better (didn't look "better" to me in the alpha - just different).

 

[Chris Simon]

Ad 1)
All I can say is that the pulse wave isn't always working right.
However things you describe can be attributed to the fact that the asteroid highlights reflect off of other asteroid, making them seem like they're highlighted as well, which can be confusing.
Also, not every highlighted asteroid is a core asteroid. Some are just high-yield "normal" ones.

Ad 2) The important status of the charge yield is before the detonation. After you trigger the detonation it becomes erratic and can display yields either too high or too low, but it doesn't mean anything.

edit: ninja'd

 

[Frags]

There are four major factors to detect core asteroid before you hit it with a limpet:
1. Bright and long glow from distance.
2. Shape.
3. Dense black grid on PWA pulse as you approach the asteroid (disappear when you're too close).
4. Clearly visible fissures with night vision. This is final ultimate condition. If you don't see fissures it's not a core asteroid.

 

[WreckRoot]

Also, not every highlighted asteroid is a core asteroid. Some are just high-yield "normal" ones.

There are four major factors to detect core asteroid before you hit it with a limpet:
1. Bright and long glow from distance.
2. Shape.
3. Dense black grid on PWA pulse as you approach the asteroid (disappear when you're too close).
4. Clearly visible fissures with night vision. This is final ultimate condition. If you don't see fissures it's not a core asteroid.

This post was about the erratic functioning of PWA and the yield exceeded message, not about spotting cores. As I mentioned in OP, I really don't have an issue with that. It's only annoying when PWA plays dumb by highlighting rocks at random and changing its "mind" every few seconds .

 

[Chris Simon]

This post was about the erratic functioning of PWA and the yield exceeded message, not about spotting cores. As I mentioned in OP, I really don't have an issue with that. It's only annoying when PWA plays dumb by highlighting rocks at random and changing its "mind" every few seconds .

Yes, that's why I said that PWA highlight sometimes illuminates other roids, making them look like they glow as well.
They then stop glowing when your POV changes and the path of light gets obscured..

 

[WreckRoot]

Yes, that's why I said that PWA highlight sometimes illuminates other roids, making them look like they glow as well.
They then stop glowing when your POV changes and the path of light gets obscured..

While I do notice one asteroid highlighting another, this is actually more consistent than the other issues I mentioned, I expect it and have no problem with it .
What I meant by "nearby" in

- "phase 1" highlights different asteroids than "phase 2".
I see an asteroid highlighted and then suddenly the highlight disappears and another nearby asteroid gets it. huh?

... was something more like "up to 3-5km away".

 

[WreckRoot]

So I wanted to test your opinions that the seismic charge thing is not an issue, just an erroneous message.

I set out for a 1hr run to test this idea and reevaluate my own mining speed.
Ended up finishing with full cargo hold and refinery on my Python, having gathered 18 alexandrite, 14 musgravite, 152 monazite and 14 serendibite in 12 total cores found over 56 minutes in the ring (from drop in to low waking out).

My results indicate that yeah, the "yield exceeded" message does indeed reduce your yield.
It doesn't seem to affect the number of surface deposits you need to blast off or the contents thereof, but it does seem to reduce the number of chunks released on detonation (as soon as you crack, there's a couple of clusters of ready-to-collect rocks floating near the cracked asteroid).

I always detonated "in the blue zone" with never a single spike in the red, and yet:

• about half of my detonations were "exceeded yield"
• my "exceeded yield" detonations resulted in 8-11 floating chunks and as a result a ~14 tons of mineral refined from the core on average
• my regular detonations resulted in 11-15 floating chunks and as a result a ~18 tons of mineral refined from the core on average

So yeah... it seems like this really is an issue. Not a big one, of course, just 4 tons of something worth ~700.000 credits per ton per core, which in my today's test run (where I had 6 "exceeded" detonations) means I lost 6 * 4 * 700.000 = 16.8 million credits. Pocket money.

But still, it seems to be a bug, unless there's something about blowing up rocks that I don't get.

 

[Para Handy]

.......
My results indicate that yeah, the "yield exceeded" message does indeed reduce your yield.
.......

I find the opposite - even with the message I still get 13, 14 or 15 chunks produced.

Just so long as my bands of blocks are blue when I do "detonate now" - then even with the message and loadsa red blocks after the boom - full haul of chunks.

 

[WreckRoot]

I find the opposite - even with the message I still get 13, 14 or 15 chunks produced.

Really? Can you post a screenshot of that? (exceeded yield, 15 chunks freed)? I will do another run tonight perhaps and take screenshots of my results to compare. It's baffling.

Just to be clear, we're talking about the chunks freed on detonation, not tons of refined material and not including the ones produced by abrasion blasting off the cracked asteroid's fragments, rite?

 

[Para Handy]

Really? Can you post a screenshot of that? (exceeded yield, 15 chunks freed)? I will do another run tonight perhaps and take screenshots of my results to compare. It's baffling.

Just to be clear, we're talking about the chunks freed on detonation, not tons of refined material and not including the ones produced by abrasion blasting off the cracked asteroid's fragments, rite?

no - if you don't believe me, tough, people on here will tell you I don't lie

yes - I clearly said "chunks produced"

EDIT: See below

 

[Para Handy]

Really? Can you post a screenshot of that? (exceeded yield, 15 chunks freed)? I will do another run tonight perhaps and take screenshots of my results to compare. It's baffling.

Just to be clear, we're talking about the chunks freed on detonation, not tons of refined material and not including the ones produced by abrasion blasting off the cracked asteroid's fragments, rite?

Just jumped in game (note times on HUD) - first two cores, 14 chunks each time with the yield exceeded message. (Not going to muck about for a 15 chunk experience as I want to eat. )

I'll stick up a video of the first one shortly (yootoob takes an age to process)...

 

[alexzk]

My understanding of the PWA is as follows. You click, there's a "ping", after the ping the asteroids are highlighted for ~1 second in one shade ("phase 1"), and then for ~4 seconds in a slightly different shade ("phase 2"). Asteroids are highlighted differently based on range, angle (best results straight ahead) and... something about their composition... but the important part is that core asteroids are highlighted differently than others, except some fake small ones that you can differentiate by shape/size.

To understand that, make imaginary experiment.
Pick random sized rocks, break some mirror in small pieces. Put rock in glue then in mirror's pieces.
Now you have rock with glued mirrors.
Now imagine you direct light source to it, what you see?
So "mirror" here is minerals inside rock, and light source is ur scanner. And works basically on this principle - more minerals - brighter reflection. Also cores have complex external shape which looks "black" when light is mirrored back.

 

[Para Handy]

Really? Can you post a screenshot of that? (exceeded yield, 15 chunks freed)? I will do another run tonight perhaps and take screenshots of my results to compare. It's baffling.
....

The promised video:

 

[WreckRoot]

Just jumped in game (note times on HUD) - first two cores, 14 chunks each time with the yield exceeded message. (Not going to muck about for a 15 chunk experience as I want to eat. )

View attachment 226084


View attachment 226085

I'll stick up a video of the first one shortly (yootoob takes an age to process)...

Thanks!
Just to be clear, I never suspected you of lying, just that you might be mistaken. I expect that I might be mistaken as well, that's why I said I would go there again and get some screenshots (perhaps later tonight if I feel well after Pfizer).

What platform are you playing on btw?

 

[Para Handy]

......
What platform are you playing on btw?

I play on PC - video recording via OBS Studio which scales down my 1440 image to 1080 (for the toob) so loses a bit of crispness.

Here is a video showing the PWA use approaching a core rock and the setting of charges - I stopped recording before detonation but it produced the second screenshot even though there were some un-filled blue boxes (I had messed up one charge and disarmed it) the detonation video needs trimming before I can post it.

Here is the detonation, showing the yield exceeded message but also the "detonation successful 14 resource chunks freed" message:

 

[WreckRoot]

Ok so here are my results over two short runs. Total cores found = 17.

Spoiler: screens

Spoiler: analysis

Optimal count	5
Optimal sum	63
Optimal avg	12.6
Exceeded count	12
Exceeded sum	134
Exceeded avg	11.16666667

chunk count	Optimal	Exceeded
9	0	3
10	1	2
11	1	2
12	0	2
13	0	1
14	3	2
TOTAL	5	12

Now, being a mathematician I should probably keep testing for the next several days until I accumulate a sample of a hundred data points or some such, but frankly I cba.

So here are my tentative conclusions, unsupported by any p-value, but still more reliable than based off two screenshots :

• over 70% of detonations reported exceeded yield, despite every single detonation being in the blue or slightly below and none of them having a single spike of red.
• 9 chunks seem only possible on exceeded yield detonations (25% occurence), never on optimal yields. This is consistent with my potentially fallible memory.
• 14 chunks appear significantly more often on optimal yield detonations (60% on optimal, 17% on exceeded).
• there is an average of 1.5 extra chunks (+12.8%) freed on optimal detonations, giving roughly one million per core (assuming ~700k cr per ton, one chunk being almost a ton).

Overall the difference doesn't seem to be as drastic as I thought, perhaps I fell victim to confirmation bias, but the (admittedly unabundant) data indicates I am right, exceeded detonation yield does negatively impact your chunk yield.

It almost seems as if there were three scenarios on every blue detonation, with a roughly 1-1-1 split:

• optimal yield
• false exceeded yield
• true exceeded yield

... where false exceeded yield gives the prompt but has similar yield to optimal, whereas true exceeded yield actually causes your yield to suck balls.

Ugh... head hurt. No more core mining today.
Let's get some passenger ship set up for extractions. Stations are burning.

 

[Chris Simon]

Ok so here are my results over two short runs. Total cores found = 17.

Spoiler: screens

View attachment 226104
View attachment 226110

Spoiler: analysis

Optimal count	5
Optimal sum	63
Optimal avg	12.6
Exceeded count	12
Exceeded sum	134
Exceeded avg	11.16666667

chunk count	Optimal	Exceeded
9	0	3
10	1	2
11	1	2
12	0	2
13	0	1
14	3	2
TOTAL	5	12

Now, being a mathematician I should probably keep testing for the next several days until I accumulate a sample of a hundred data points or some such, but frankly I cba.

So here are my tentative conclusions, unsupported by any p-value, but still more reliable than based off two screenshots :

• over 70% of detonations reported exceeded yield, despite every single detonation being in the blue or slightly below and none of them having a single spike of red.
• 9 chunks seem only possible on exceeded yield detonations (25% occurence), never on optimal yields. This is consistent with my potentially fallible memory.
• 14 chunks appear significantly more often on optimal yield detonations (60% on optimal, 17% on exceeded).
• there is an average of 1.5 extra chunks (+12.8%) freed on optimal detonations, giving roughly one million per core (assuming ~700k cr per ton, one chunk being almost a ton).

Overall the difference doesn't seem to be as drastic as I thought, perhaps I fell victim to confirmation bias, but the (admittedly unabundant) data indicates I am right, exceeded detonation yield does negatively impact your chunk yield.

It almost seems as if there were three scenarios on every blue detonation, with a roughly 1-1-1 split:

• optimal yield
• false exceeded yield
• true exceeded yield

... where false exceeded yield gives the prompt but has similar yield to optimal, whereas true exceeded yield actually causes your yield to suck balls.

Ugh... head hurt. No more core mining today.
Let's get some passenger ship set up for extractions. Stations are burning.

No offense, but you're taking this WAY too seriously.
But it's good, I guess. You're new, full of energy and want to understand everything. But there are things in Elite that simply defy scientific method.

If something unexplainable happens to me, I usually just shrug, go get a beer from the fridge and carry on trucking.

 

[rOmiLaYu]

If something unexplainable happens to me, I usually just shrug, go get a beer from the fridge and carry on trucking.

This is the way.

 

[WreckRoot]

No offense, but you're taking this WAY too seriously.
But it's good, I guess. You're new, full of energy and want to understand everything. But there are things in Elite that simply defy scientific method.

I'm not sure what that would even mean, to defy the scientific method
What we have here is not the case for that, it seems. I just don't have the time to apply proper statistical analysis to it, cause I'd need to spend literal days on sampling.

If something unexplainable happens to me, I usually just shrug, go get a beer from the fridge and carry on trucking.

This is the way.

If that works for you, that's cool. I like figuring things out and improving myself, that's what drives me. "Carry on trucking" is the direct opposite of what I want to do in such moments and if I ever reach that point, that will very likely be my last day of playing this game