I don't know much about...

[Decksmeck]

...Block chains, but since this is P2P archtitecture, could you create a block chain that contains AI ships. Star systems conduct transactions with each other and trade AI ships. Encrypted names of course. Then to validate, when we fly around, use a little bit of every connected cpu to validate. Like when one enters the star system, it's hash gets validated. Like I said, I don't know too much about block chains but maybe you can use one in a way to create a persistent AI presence.

 

[Decksmeck]

Like I was saying. Not a lot of knowledge but if it was a concern about being able to correlate your current system with the encrypted name of the system, what about making it so you are not the host of your own system. Just somebody else's random system. Maybe you could have random hosts (some kind of distributed hosting if possible) and 3 random validators processing a system in the background.

Lol. I wish I knew more but I have not studied it.

 

[Lestat]

If I getting you right you want to do something on the cryptocurrency type world and want to trade currency to other players. That I have to say no. Because it promotes Bots and such.

 

[Decksmeck]

Then (sorry for the run-on posts) if it jumps into a system where there is no host, it actually jumps into your computers. Your computers are hot storage, warm, cold, frozen. In hot storage, it looks at the timestamps on the AI often. So a pirate jumped to a system to escape a fight. Your computer checks it 30 secs or a minute later after storage. It then decides if it was going to return. If so it applies a time shift algorithm to it to adjust shields and what not and jumps it back to the host.

Otherwise it gets moved to warm. In warm storage it gets checked hourly or something and updated. Maybe it is a trader and it should have traded and wouI'd have jumped around some. It gets time shifted and assigned to the to the appropriate system.

And so on.

Or maybe that isn't block chain. Perhaps when you time shift the AI it is a transaction too of some sort. Ah, well. Just ideas.

 

[Decksmeck]

Not at all. I was thinking more like Star systems trading AI ships like they are currency.

 

[Kenpachi85]

Not at all. I was thinking more like Star systems trading AI ships like they are currency.

What for? Npc ships spawn and respawn randomly in a system as you fly about why would star systems "trade" ships?

 

[Decksmeck]

For persistence. So you could have npc ships carrying cargo and the supplies of stations could reflect successful deliveries. Then the economy becomes persistent. If an NPC was attacked by you and he escaped, maybe you made his top 10 most feared CMDRs list and if he sees you again he reacts.

Frozen storage might hold event based npcs. They might activate when a player jumps to a remote system. They are pulled out of frozen and hosted. Then they might stay active for some reason in a warmer state.

In far away systems, exploration npcs might exists in cold storage. Perhaps they are time shifted in to a future state. Example. The computer projects an exploration route and time shifts the craft there and puts it in cold storage with time windows. System A from time x to y. System b from time y to z. If a player enters either system during those time frames, the computer gets the craft, time shifts it, and delivers it to the host.

 

[Kenpachi85]

For persistence. So you could have npc ships carrying cargo and the supplies of stations could reflect successful deliveries. Then the economy becomes persistent. If an NPC was attacked by you and he escaped, maybe you made his top 10 most feared CMDRs list and if he sees you again he reacts.

Frozen storage might hold event based npcs. They might activate when a player jumps to a remote system. They are pulled out of frozen and hosted. Then they might stay active for some reason in a warmer state.

In far away systems, exploration npcs might exists in cold storage. Perhaps they are time shifted in to a future state. Example. The computer projects an exploration route and time shifts the craft there and puts it in cold storage with time windows. System A from time x to y. System b from time y to z. If a player enters either system during those time frames, the computer gets the craft, time shifts it, and delivers it to the host.

I wouldn't want npc pirates following me out while I explore trying to interdict me while I'm using the fss thatd be incredibly annoying and why would they be out in uninhabited space(just to stalk us )? Plus aside from sounding very complicated the cargo idea would hinder traders used to stations having a relatively predictable amount of goods to trade. Game is complicated and at times glitchy enough without adding all of this on top.

 

[Decksmeck]

I wouldn't want npc pirates following me out while I explore trying to interdict me while I'm using the fss thatd be incredibly annoying and why would they be out in uninhabited space(just to stalk us )? Plus aside from sounding very complicated the cargo idea would hinder traders used to stations having a relatively predictable amount of goods to trade. Game is complicated and at times glitchy enough without adding all of this on top.

Well, there wouldn't be too many deep space pirates, I bet. They need to stay close to their prey.

I suppose it might still be fairly predictable and change would be slow unless a major incident occurred. Alien invasions or major celestial events might mix it up. Piracy probably wouldn't make it uninhabitable.

Though I guess all these commodities could be there own individual crypto currency. That would all be behind the scenes. But it might make some routes become very profitable. It just depends on where the supply of cargo is coming from and how far it has to go to reach its destination. There are many extraction economies. I don't know if any long routes are necessary but it would make trading more challenging and rewarding, provided to tools to find the routes were good. Of course, pirates have the same tools no doubt.

The same is true of all the cargo types. I hope there are rarer goods. Otherwise, trading it probably always short range. Loading up a T10 heavy with rare good and being escorted by a wing or squadron of friends to a remote location through shark invested space could be good gameplay.

Even successful pirates carrying stolen but valuable cargo might have worries too.

 

[Morbad]

Sounds like you want to solve persistence and connection issues by using peers to store a distributed global server/client state.

I can certainly see upsides to an MMO that didn't need any server infrastructure at all and a blockchain or similar solution could probably be made to work, but it wouldn't be simple to convert the game to use it, and the client storage requirements would quickly become significant.

Intriguing premise though.

If I getting you right you want to do something on the cryptocurrency type world and want to trade currency to other players. That I have to say no. Because it promotes Bots and such.

Cryptocurrencies usually use blockchain ledgers, but blockchain in no way implies cryptocurrency.

What a blockchain could do for a peer-to-peer game is allow the peers to also be the core authentication/transaction/chat/mission/update/whatever servers, while maintaining or improving upon security/resistance to tampering. You could track all instance states and validate them against other peers. Loads could be balanced better, peers obfuscated better, and anomalies would be rejected by the network. It could make the game much more resistant to downtime, enable persistence we cannot practically have in the current system, and prevent cheating much more easily. You could probably get all of the benefits of having dedicated servers, while making the game even more distributed decentralized.

Downside would be each client having to act as a node which could require significant local storage if the entire blockchain were kept. There would also need to be Frontier superpeers to push through changes (patches) against network consensus.

 

[Decksmeck]

Even fuel could be a crypto currency. The ship buys power from the PP with fuel. The thrusters and fsd buy movement with fuel and power. The whole ship is a transaction machine. You could even time shift npcs within a system. If an npc is on the otherside of the star system and no one is within sensor range it doesn't need to be live. You just project its path and its transactions and calculate the time to update. Then you just need to time shift it and update the transactions if a player comes within sensor range.

Npcs can still react to each other if they cross paths. They just don't need to be live. A fast computer can calculate the outcome with a truncated rule set. Think rock, paper, scissors but throw in a chance of anomalies in the outcome. Every once in a while scissors beat rock.

 

[Decksmeck]

Sounds like you want to solve persistence and connection issues by using peers to store a distributed global server/client state.

I can certainly see upsides to an MMO that didn't need any server infrastructure at all and a blockchain or similar solution could probably be made to work, but it wouldn't be simple to convert the game to use it, and the client storage requirements would quickly become significant.

Intriguing premise though.



Cryptocurrencies usually use blockchain ledgers, but blockchain in no way implies cryptocurrency.

What a blockchain could do for a peer-to-peer game is allow the peers to also be the core authentication/transaction/chat/mission/update/whatever servers, while maintaining or improving upon security/resistance to tampering. You could track all instance states and validate them against other peers. Loads could be balanced better, peers obfuscated better, and anomalies would be rejected by the network. It could make the game much more resistant to downtime, enable persistence we cannot practically have in the current system, and prevent cheating much more easily. You could probably get all of the benefits of having dedicated servers, while making the game even more distributed decentralized.

Downside would be each client having to act as a node which could require significant local storage if the entire blockchain were kept. There would also need to be Frontier superpeers to push through changes (patches) against network consensus.

Thanks. Yeah I think it could work. The thing is. Bitcoins don't disappear. AI ships can be destroyed. So why remember them? Need a block chain that forgets what no longer exists and remembers what does.

Maybe every ship is it's own little block chain.

 

[Morbad]

The thing is. Bitcoins don't disappear. AI ships can be destroyed. So why remember them?

So no one can claim to have destroyed ships they didn't, or otherwise manipulate the game's history.

Not everyone would need to run a full node and most clients could retain only pertinent information, but some significant minority of peers would need to be more detailed nodes to guard against manipulation of the game state.

 

[Decksmeck]

I guess an npc ship can get 1 TTL(Time to live). That is the number of lives and it is a crypto currency. When they get killed by a player, the player gets their TTL and gets added to their statistics account. When a ship has 0 TTL it gives a key to the host that the host usees to delete it.

If an npc wins a TTL, maybe they buy a rank of combat skill or upgrades.

 

[Decksmeck]

Maybe...what the host has is time as a currency. The ship buys time from the host with fuel, which is a currency, and it gets added to the ship's Time account. The host converts the fuel into space, also a currency, using the ship thrusters and/or fsd stats by spending the ship's time (clock or calculation depending on whether it is hosted live or being projected into the future ). When it spends all the time, it updates the ships location using the space it created. If the ship is hosted live, the ship buys small units of time per transaction. If it is to be projected, it buys larger units. The host decides the unit size based on proximity of players to the npc.


Maybe there needs to be two hosts.

One has time and the other has space. The ship has fuel.

So one host stores it and the other processes it.

The ship buys space and time with fuel.

........i should be asleep.....

I don't know.

Lol

 

[Decksmeck]

Maybe exchange servers that change one thing into another. Like one player exchanges fuel for time. Another exchanges mj from the PP for mj for the shields. Another time for space. Space for travel distance. Then you could spawn 1000s of every type of exchange server as needed and the could process exchanges without knowing much.

 

[Decksmeck]

Building on that hot to frozen storage idea. Within a system, let an instance be a sensor bubble plus additional layers. The sensor bubble is live hot. Real time updates occur. Next might be sensor range x 2. That is live warm. Live cool is x3. And so on. A host or hosts creates a bubble that encapsulates this complete space bubble. It updates the ships in the same fashion, in terms of keeping them ready for live hot action by time shifting the layers around the live hot bubble. So the farther the layer from live hot, the less updates they need.