I don’t think I’ll ever do AX stuff

[Rakk Jackham]

Can someone convince me to do it?

The AX gameplay, at a glance, represents many of the worst design philosophies found in ED, all concentrated in one little bottle.

Good games emphasize horizontal progression, meaning you obtain the ability to do something new, rather than making numbers go up. I want more tactics and abilities, not a sword that does twice as much damage. In contrast, in ED the percentile based uh… everything and confusingly little space for modules limits players to almost exclusively vertical progression. Specialization becomes king - general functionality is, at best, difficult to pull off.

I’ve never tried it, but AX stuff just seems like the exact opposite of this design philosophy. Ostensibly, they just added AX to the name of a bunch of modules that function exactly the same as modules already in the game so that they could force the players to go off and grind another ship… and modules.. and money. THEN come back and you can play the fun stuff, finally.

I’m not down with that. Idk, I think there’s enough else to do outside of ‘goid combat that I’m not going to be coerced into restarting for one, narrow aspect of play.

Am I misreading this whole thing? Is AX combat the bees knees? Do I have the wrong viewpoint on it?

 

[HappyMoonMonkey]

I'm sorry, I don't understand your point? You don't want to spend credits on a ship capable of doing AX combat because you think AX combat will be like other combat?

I'm not sure what you do or do not understand about AX combat but I'd suggest you do a little research into it yourself first. It's dramatically different from NPC combat in all forms unless all you want to do is mow down scouts with AXMCs.

 

[Kira Goto]

Fighting Thargoid Interceptors is some of the most fun PvE content which you can find in the game. I think it's definitely worth getting invested into - it's not just setting your ship up for it (though the specialization it requires, and the fact that only Guardian and human "anti-xeno" weapons really work against them, have been subject to a fair bit of criticism), but there's a fair bit of (a) learning curve to get into it as well.

The only things you would have to unlock is Guardian weapons(Gauss for standard, the others I'd suggest getting the modified variants from the Mbooni system - requires permit - at the Prospect Deep surface station), but right now you can just buy some gimballed AX multicannons alongside a [enhanced] xeno scanner and be good to fight off Scouts and still take on a Cyclops without too much concern about whether you can damage it enough.

The rest, it's building a ship for it, but engineering effects don't change too much, just what you throw into it(namely, it generally favors hull tanks than shield tanks, especially for mediums). It is only really going to be good at AX but when you fight Thargoids, you rarely do anything else. So I wouldn't say that specialization has any impacts on the rest of the game. (Unless you only use a single ship and always have to adapt it for each task, but that's just... well, more an issue with the outfitting system and a lack of ship "loadouts" than the Thargoid content itself.)

 

[Mr Lindsay]

Yes, you've completely misread the whole thing, and that's okay.

The limiting of AX combat to certain modules is a pretty straight-forward design choice by FDev so that they could better control the range of available options, which in turn meant they could design really engaging and difficult gameplay that (generally) requires a higher-skill floor than general PvE. It also allowed them to control the 'narrative' of the war over the last few years, with humans as a whole gaining power over time and the Thargoids responding, rather than players just rushing in with their pre-existing PvP builds and dominating the Thargoids on Day One.

Whether you actually would enjoy it is a different question. It's not for everyone, but I would suggest looking for some guides and then trying to take down a Cyclops by yourself if you are interested, and see how that tickles you. I think people trivialise them a bit because once you've learned all the techniques they can become rather rote, but for me the one-on-one Interceptor fights are probably the best boss-battles in any game like this, and playing in a busy AX combat zone with a load of other players is the most fun I've had in Elite.

 

[Rebel Yell]

I never did it too, no regrets and I don't feel as having missed something in the game... reason is because I do PvE stuff only if it is functional to PvP.

 

[DemiserofD]

Can someone convince me to do it?

The AX gameplay, at a glance, represents many of the worst design philosophies found in ED, all concentrated in one little bottle.

Good games emphasize horizontal progression, meaning you obtain the ability to do something new, rather than making numbers go up. I want more tactics and abilities, not a sword that does twice as much damage. In contrast, in ED the percentile based uh… everything and confusingly little space for modules limits players to almost exclusively vertical progression. Specialization becomes king - general functionality is, at best, difficult to pull off.

I’ve never tried it, but AX stuff just seems like the exact opposite of this design philosophy. Ostensibly, they just added AX to the name of a bunch of modules that function exactly the same as modules already in the game so that they could force the players to go off and grind another ship… and modules.. and money. THEN come back and you can play the fun stuff, finally.

I’m not down with that. Idk, I think there’s enough else to do outside of ‘goid combat that I’m not going to be coerced into restarting for one, narrow aspect of play.

Am I misreading this whole thing? Is AX combat the bees knees? Do I have the wrong viewpoint on it?

What AX combat really is about is precise navigational control. You need to use all your thrusters to carefully maintain the exact correct speed and range to maximize your damage dealt and minimize your damage taken.

Guardian gear is largely to make that skill progression easier, but it's exactly the same type of skill whether you are using a fully engineered guardian chieftain or an unengineered AX multicannon Vulture.

If the grind bothers you, and you prefer the more skillful aspects, there is nothing wrong with using that vulture to get started. In fact, it is more than capable, with a little npc support, of soloing ax conflict zones.

Do YOU have the skill to succeed, without the grind?

 

[nemolomen]

What AX combat really is about is precise navigational control. You need to use all your thrusters to carefully maintain the exact correct speed and range to maximize your damage dealt and minimize your damage taken.

Well, sure, that's one way of doing it, but not the only way...

 

[gorankar]

You like it or don't. Give it a try in some thing cheap and simple in a NHS. If you like that then try AX CZ's, then grind the good gear if you like. Or, don't if you don't.

 

[Greasetrap42]

It should be pointed out that "AX Stuff" includes many different activities. Some include combat, others don't.

What I enjoyed was some of the activities required specialized ships. And I like building ships. Building a special ship to accomplish a specific task I find quite fun.

Examples of Specialized AX Ships:

• AX Combat ships - Designed specifically for AX combat.
• AX material gathering - Cold shieldless build so you get left alone. Corrosive resistant cargo racks, collector limpets, lasers. Add SRV hanger for Thargoid planetary bases.
• AX Titan Bomber - Shoot the Titan's pineapple. Cold shieldless build so you get left alone. Nanite Torpedo Rack and AX Missile Racks. Repair limpets and AFMU so you can repair and do multiple runs at the Titan's heart.
• Station Evac - Weaponless ship designed for one purpose. Fill with passengers and zip away.

Preparing a ship for a specific task is no different than other RPG games where I equip and prepare my character for a specific activity. Gathering the appropriate armor, weapons, upgrades, potions, and spells for the activity I'm about to focus on. It is a bunch of work preparing for a new activity.

 

[Greasetrap42]

If a player has never visited a Thargoid planetary base they are really missing out.

Its not AX combat, but it does involve Thargoid activities. You want to get a Thargoid Probe and Thargoid Sensor (visiting an attacked science vessel is the easy way), then visit the ground base with an SRV. You enter the base and activate the 'map'. Its funtastic!

 

[Shurimal]

I used to do a lot of AX combat around outpost CZ-s. Now I only bother with attacks on Titans--a nice chill activity rewarding stealth and patience.

The biggest gripe with AX combat for me is that it's all the same. Same enemies with the same attack patterns, same handful of weapons you can use against them, same tactics that works--bigger interceptors are just tougher and meaner and take a lot more time to take out while leaving less margin for errors. Glaives and Scythes brought some variance into it, but Scythe baiting got nerfed and weapons that work against Glaives don't work against interceptors and vice versa. The difficulty in interceptor combat is very Soulslike: learn the pattern, then apply your attacks and counters with perfect timing and precision without room for messing up. I get why many people like it, but that's never been quite appealing for me (outside of one-of-a-kind boss fights); I prefer different sort of difficulty, operational difficulty instead of mechanical difficulty. The utter madness and chaos of fighting in human CZ-s, assaulting settlements and taking on multiple targets in haz RES-s (shame that NPC wings are still broken...). I like when things predictably get unpredictable, I like when perfect muscle memory and fast reflexes are not enough to win a fight. I also prefer the flexibility and engineering options for anti-human weapons--I'm always tinkering, swapping out guns and trying different engineering options, that's half of the game for me and AX combat just doesn't have this aspect to it.

On a side note, I recently started going through Black Mesa, after 20 or so years I played Half-Life the last time. And now I understand why Half-Life has always been the nr. 1 shooter for me: it's much more involved than just running and gunning. Thinking ahead, observing the environment, coming up with a battle plan based on incomplete information you have and then executing, re-evaluating, re-prioritizing and re-positioning depending on what actually goes down, without the game forcing you to start the fight all over again if you don't do it the "correct" way, is just so much fun for me.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I never did AX simply because i was annoyed it mean making a new ship configuration, rather than the ships i'd spent many hours customizing, and in the early days of AX there were some limitations on weapons (turrets could only be multicrew - why? Because FD wanted people to MC?), the fact that those weapons are then rubbish against human ships, and the mechanics for destroying Thargoids were just a pain. Oh, and the constant damage requiring more faffing around during combat. By the time some of those things got better, I had lost all interest in anything to do with Thargoids.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Can someone convince me to do it?

If you don't want to do it, you don't... Simple and straightforward.

Sounds as if you have already convinced yourself, so I won't waste any effort.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Good games emphasize horizontal progression, meaning you obtain the ability to do something new, rather than making numbers go up.

different strokes for different folks however i think this is a pretty blinkered way of looking at it.

some games, generally competetive PvP games balance is important...... but i would say the vast majority of games, involve "earning" upgrades which are out and out improvements over what you had before.

Elites challenge it faces is it is trying to be all things for all people, do you look at it as a competetive pvp game? or an arcade shooter, or some sort of space RPG,

Elite is aiming to be all of those things despite all of those games generally have very different design philosophies,

If in doubt i would say look to previous games in the series - which isnt perfect as Elite D does have new features.... but previous elite games have always had out and out upgrades, in Elite, Elite Frontier and Elite 1st encounters.

i will however say that i never liked the notion that weapons which were effective against thargoids were next to useless against humans.... that is just inviting a gankers paradise.... but new weopons to be effective against them is fine imo

 

[Brrokk]

Yes, you've completely misread the whole thing, and that's okay.

The limiting of AX combat to certain modules is a pretty straight-forward design choice by FDev so that they could better control the range of available options, which in turn meant they could design really engaging and difficult gameplay that (generally) requires a higher-skill floor than general PvE. It also allowed them to control the 'narrative' of the war over the last few years, with humans as a whole gaining power over time and the Thargoids responding, rather than players just rushing in with their pre-existing PvP builds and dominating the Thargoids on Day One.

Whether you actually would enjoy it is a different question. It's not for everyone, but I would suggest looking for some guides and then trying to take down a Cyclops by yourself if you are interested, and see how that tickles you. I think people trivialise them a bit because once you've learned all the techniques they can become rather rote, but for me the one-on-one Interceptor fights are probably the best boss-battles in any game like this, and playing in a busy AX combat zone with a load of other players is the most fun I've had in Elite.

I agree. I'm not great as an AX fighter, but it's immense fun.

Because I don't usually do this Solo I find I can get away with departing from the meta. ATM I've stopped using Guardian weapons (only occasionally going back to mod shards). My shieldless Krait ATM has 3 gimbal AXMCs and 2 thermal vent beams. I find this very survivable; can solo a Cyclops or a load of Scouts and can contribute to taking down larger ones. It's all off-the-shelf stuff with no special unlocks.

Caustic sink launcher helps enormously, but I think that's also off-the-shelf now.

The "Guardian grind" no longer exists, if it ever did.

 

[HRDiagram]

Another comment, another drop in the sea of comments!

I tried everything before forming my opinion, even things that I was dubious about.
I got into AX from scratch because I'm not good at anything, but I enjoy the trip more than the destination, so building the ship and unlocking the tech to me was not a hurdle to the content I wanted, but part if it. (I know that everyone is different about this. )

Learning how to solo an Interceptor has been one of the most satisfying experiences I've had in ED.

 

[nemolomen]

If a player has never visited a Thargoid planetary base they are really missing out.

Its not AX combat, but it does involve Thargoid activities. You want to get a Thargoid Probe and Thargoid Sensor (visiting an attacked science vessel is the easy way), then visit the ground base with an SRV. You enter the base and activate the 'map'. Its funtastic!

View attachment 398078

I recently did this for the first time, with the assistance of @Jack Winter, who is an old pro at it...Many thanks again Jack, it was awesome, even though we had some instancing issues...

 

[Rakk Jackham]

The Thargoid ground structures do look pretty cool, I might have to check that out. Thanks Greasetrap.

different strokes for different folks however i think this is a pretty blinkered way of looking at it.

some games, generally competetive PvP games balance is important...... but i would say the vast majority of games, involve "earning" upgrades which are out and out improvements over what you had before.

.... but previous elite games have always had out and out upgrades, in Elite, Elite Frontier and Elite 1st encounters.

i will however say that i never liked the notion that weapons which were effective against thargoids were next to useless against humans.... that is just inviting a gankers paradise.... but new weopons to be effective against them is fine imo

I assume most games do do that. But it’s more of a legacy from older and tabletop games. Games that don’t have the language in game to describe why something is more effective. So they just say “this dagger is +2.” Elite has that language, so just scaling stats up is kind of a waste - like, I feel bad for the Fdev programmer who had to do math on modules stats - because when is the last time anyone has used any module other than A or D? Because why would you? Why would anyone? That’s a serious question not sarcasm and it is one anyone doing world design needs to consider.

Elite has the language to describe it, which is why it’s a bit disappointing. Imagine if instead of E-A rated multi cannons, they were just different calibers. Small caliber-fast, large caliber, and large caliber-magnum. You could imagine how each of those would vary in projectile speed, ammo and jitter - stats that are very much already in the game. You could have an active debate about which was most effective that you couldn’t solve with a calculator and it would make sense, in-universe, why some people used one over the other.

Like, why are brand new ships that cost 100s of millions sold with ALL the worst equipment. The fairly bald-faced answer is: to make you go shopping. The in-universe answer is:________[placeholder] ?

Elite makes these “+3 dagger”-isms far worse by making them HUGE leaps in power, when even if you decide to go that design route, they should be marginal utility. I can go to a PVE Rez and literally blast NPCs while staying stationary, collecting materials and they can’t even dent my shields. While meta-engineered tankers can drop my shields in seconds, if they decide to bother instead of just shooting through them.

Now I’m supposed to go buy all new gear that has no utility against human vessels and start climbing a new pyramid of , because these ones are made from garlic-infused silver or whatever…

I think the fact that Mechan freaked out about the caustic resistant cargo rack was telling to me - like, cargo racks… I need specific cargo racks to do this? Well that tracks exactly with how the rest of the game is designed, so… I see the comments saying that you don’t need good AX stuff and that I just need to git gud, but doesn’t that mean just having to run 5-fold as many cold orbits because my gear is sub-meta? Because that’s what it means everywhere else in the game.

 

[GreySix]

Nobody need convince me. I won't engage in any of the AX activities, simply because it does not interest me.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

The Thargoid ground structures do look pretty cool, I might have to check that out. Thanks Greasetrap.



I assume most games do do that. But it’s more of a legacy from older and tabletop games. Games that don’t have the language in game to describe why something is more effective. So they just say “this dagger is +2.” Elite has that language, so just scaling stats up is kind of a waste - like, I feel bad for the Fdev programmer who had to do math on modules stats - because when is the last time anyone has used any module other than A or D? Because why would you? Why would anyone? That’s a serious question not sarcasm and it is one anyone doing world design needs to consider.

Elite has the language to describe it, which is why it’s a bit disappointing. Imagine if instead of E-A rated multi cannons, they were just different calibers. Small caliber-fast, large caliber, and large caliber-magnum. You could imagine how each of those would vary in projectile speed, ammo and jitter - yet, all still have a use. You could have an active debate about which was most effective that you couldn’t solve with a calculator and still make sense in-universe.

Elite makes these “+3 dagger”-isms far worse by making them HUGE leaps in power, when even if you decide to go that design route, they should be marginal utility. I can go to a PVE Rez and literally blast NPCs while staying stationary, collecting materials and they can’t even dent my shields. While meta-engineered tankers can drop my shields in seconds, if they decide to bother instead of just shooting through them.

Now I’m supposed to go buy all new gear that has no utility against human vessels and start climbing a new pyramid of , because these ones are made from garlic-infused silver or whatever…

I think the fact that Mechan freaked out about the caustic resistant cargo rack was telling to me - like, cargo racks… I need specific cargo racks to do this? Well that tracks exactly with how the rest of the game is designed, so… I see the comments saying that you don’t need good AX stuff and that I just need to git gud, but doesn’t that mean just having to run 5-fold as many cold orbits because my gear is sub-meta? Because that’s what it means everywhere else in the game.

i dont disagree with a lot of that .. (B rated limpets have a use btw as they are longer range)..... but i take your point, i would like to see more use for the other rated gear in the game as well.


however that does not mean we should not be able to get objectively better "improved" A - E rated modules.

it isnt going to change given the age of the game however 1 way to get us out of the meta (and would not be a huge amount of work imo) would be having missions which come with a specific ship and load out supplied. Deliver a ship to a certain area, clone a person and fly in "their" ship for (insert various nefarious reasons here) or just patrol missions or what not where local security insist you do it in their equipment..