I have been told there are many whiners on here, so I'm going to join them

[Cmnd Fulsom]

Okay, I have a complaint about the AI. No, it's not too hard, I can handle just about any AI ship out there. And it's not- that they're too easy per se. It's just- they don't seem to have any survival instinct. So, let me run you through the scenario I keep seeing. I get up behind my target, open up on the ship, and they'll hit the boost, gain a little distance, and as I approach, they stop, flip, and open up.

Sounds good so far, but- they don't even try to get out of my sights. The rest of the battle is then me flying around the enemy, as they- basically just sit where they are rotating along with my vertical and lateral thrusters. This kind of AI behavior bugs me. I understand it, I do, I remember the time when all the AI would do is fly defensively, and it was trivial to just stay behind them, because they weren't very good at defensive flying. But while this is more challenging for a certain values of challenge, no person fights like this. This behavior only exists because the AI's ships are expendable. They don't have rebuy costs, they don't need to work to engineer their modules, they just, pop into existence out in the sky.

The AI isn't playing to beat me, the AI is playing to cause attrition, and while fighting the AI is still fun, it would be even more enjoyable if it were better.

 

[Lightspeed]

Okay, I have a complaint about the AI. No, it's not too hard, I can handle just about any AI ship out there. And it's not- that they're too easy per se. It's just- they don't seem to have any survival instinct. So, let me run you through the scenario I keep seeing. I get up behind my target, open up on the ship, and they'll hit the boost, gain a little distance, and as I approach, they stop, flip, and open up.

Sounds good so far, but- they don't even try to get out of my sights. The rest of the battle is then me flying around the enemy, as they- basically just sit where they are rotating along with my vertical and lateral thrusters. This kind of AI behavior bugs me. I understand it, I do, I remember the time when all the AI would do is fly defensively, and it was trivial to just stay behind them, because they weren't very good at defensive flying. But while this is more challenging for a certain values of challenge, no person fights like this. This behavior only exists because the AI's ships are expendable. They don't have rebuy costs, they don't need to work to engineer their modules, they just, pop into existence out in the sky.

The AI isn't playing to beat me, the AI is playing to cause attrition, and while fighting the AI is still fun, it would be even more enjoyable if it were better.

But they did have a survival instinct - they fled to a safe distance when their shields were taken down - and there were complaints - and it was nerfed.

The problem was, you could spend a while in battle with the NPC, it would then withdraw and recharge, and you would have to do it all over again. It sometimes took an age and it didn't always end in a satisfactory win.

 

[Cmnd Fulsom]

I mean, I get where you're coming from. But here's the main problem I've always seen with the AI. It always does the same thing. Right, like, I came back from my exploration and obviously I haven't fought in a while. So I jump into my vulture, and the first ship I encounter is a FAS. And that's very much the right thing for a FAS to do in a straight up face to face shooting match with a vulture, the FAS will win. I mean, it will take damage, but it'll win. And I thought, oh, that's cool. And then eagles started melting because they tried that too.

There has to be a middle ground between playing chasey chasey catchy catchy kissy kissy with the AI and the AI basically sitting still and firing away at you. There must be some point at which the AI will actually fly and try to evade fire, while also being aggressive enough to pose a threat.

 

[Soopyyy]

But they did have a survival instinct - they fled to a safe distance when their shields were taken down - and there were complaints - and it was nerfed.

The problem was, you could spend a while in battle with the NPC, it would then withdraw and recharge, and you would have to do it all over again. It sometimes took an age and it didn't always end in a satisfactory win.

That was because they did it every single time.
I'd be fine with higher level NPC's doing that a couple times, every 10th NPC or so. But not every single NPC every single time I try to kill them.

 

[NW3]

The problem with most game AIs is that they generally don't play like humans. They have super-human aiming abilities and subhuman tactics and survival skills.

Designing human-like AI is hard. If they are too good, players complain; if they suck, players complain. It's basically a no-win situation. What we need are AIs which are tailored to a player's skill level. That may not be feasible in Open, but it ought to be doable in Solo.

 

[Noddie]

Not quite.

Players want different things from this game. Some want NPCS that are basically there to be shot up like the goons in some FPS. Some want NPSs that are good enough to be roll played as humans.

And. You can't easily please both camps. As they want mutually exclusive behaviors from the same code..

 

[dognosh]

When NPCs were stupidly easier, we complained.
When NPCs were stupidly harder, we complained.
Now we still complain.

There is no situation that will please most of the player base,thus making FD look good.

 

[Susanna]

Not quite.

Players want different things from this game. Some want NPCS that are basically there to be shot up like the goons in some FPS. Some want NPSs that are good enough to be roll played as humans.

And. You can't easily please both camps. As they want mutually exclusive behaviors from the same code..

Is it not possible to have an option switch in settings that the player could set? So that they could switch the npc behaviour as they saw fit? Some times you just want to pew pew, some times you want a challenge. A game npc playing style switch would keep most people happy most of the time...

The difficulty I foresee though is that you are effectively altering the difficulty level of the AI. So someone with it set to lobotamised npc's will rank up quicker than someone playing a much harder AI style. This would need to be rewarded in both credits and rank points...

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Yay, a not-so-whiney whine. Lol

We don't mind valid concerns, we all have them.
It's when you say stuff like "AI is too hard, game is crap, you're all idiots because you have me food advice which I ignored".

I too find the AI too, let's say, predictable?
This is of course a side effect from playing a long time.
But there's a few things that happen every time.
When in my Anaconda, fighting another Anaconda, they have some weird tendancy to just headbutt me, and sit there, grinding themselves down off my shields. This makes them incredibly easy to kill.

Clippers with PAs on the wings can be avoided in a Python sized ship just by rolling 90°. Although I do find this funny.

I'd love it if the AI scaled much better than it currently does.
Harmless should be exactly that (which they are), and Elite should be exactly that, Engineered nightmares, that rarely fly alone, and top notch AI that utilizes every available trick.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[Rubbernuke]

I too want top end 'ohmahgerd they comin and my Corvette is toast' Elite AI. Currently I'm only occupied when I'm bgs attacking a high sec system in lockdown and the fools send wings of corvettes at me. I WANT PAIN!

 

[NW3]

Is it not possible to have an option switch in settings that the player could set? So that they could switch the npc behaviour as they saw fit? Some times you just want to pew pew, some times you want a challenge. A game npc playing style switch would keep most people happy most of the time...

That would only work in Solo mode. In Open and Player Groups, enemies are shared between all players.

 

[dognosh]

That would only work in Solo mode. In Open and Player Groups, enemies are shared between all players.

You see an enemy Cmdr you don't like,and dial up the NPCs to 11 and go in to silent running? I like

 

[Rubbernuke]

It's a shame the coming karma system does not apply to NPCs too. Thus, if you had stupidly powerful NPC ships they would not bother harmless CMDRs but would feel the need to spank Elite CMDRs in powerful ships.

 

[Kathryn Kando]

First: nice click-bait. [big grin] Luckily, you're not a whiner.

On the topic: FD tried to balance the difficulty level - apparantly they satisfied the majority as not so many people are complaining anymore. So I guess we have to live with it. Plus, there is hope:

For my personal taste I was thrilled when the AI became rock hard. Suddenly the game was dangerous, even for PVP play in open NPCs became more than being an annoyance. Oh the whining from gankers with overpowered ships (but actually not so skilled pilots): "I lost my ship to a nasty AI - unfair!" ... I loved it.

Hope is in the Thargoids: not only they should have nice tech and powerful ships - bring back the AI skill!

 

[Cmnd Fulsom]

The thing is, I don't want incredibly hard AI necessarily, though I do think the AI could be more difficult, as I'm ranked Dangerous and fighting mostly master-elite ships. I just want it to fly like it's goal is to win the battle not to inflict damage on my ship before it dies. I want more varried AI behavior, I suppose. I really want them to dogfight and sometimes, it would actually be to the AI's advantage to try to keep the engagement at arms reach and keep facing me. But sometimes it just isn't.

 

[Insane4un]

Okay, I have a complaint about the AI. No, it's not too hard, I can handle just about any AI ship out there. And it's not- that they're too easy per se. It's just- they don't seem to have any survival instinct. So, let me run you through the scenario I keep seeing. I get up behind my target, open up on the ship, and they'll hit the boost, gain a little distance, and as I approach, they stop, flip, and open up.

Sounds good so far, but- they don't even try to get out of my sights. The rest of the battle is then me flying around the enemy, as they- basically just sit where they are rotating along with my vertical and lateral thrusters. This kind of AI behavior bugs me. I understand it, I do, I remember the time when all the AI would do is fly defensively, and it was trivial to just stay behind them, because they weren't very good at defensive flying. But while this is more challenging for a certain values of challenge, no person fights like this. This behavior only exists because the AI's ships are expendable. They don't have rebuy costs, they don't need to work to engineer their modules, they just, pop into existence out in the sky.

The AI isn't playing to beat me, the AI is playing to cause attrition, and while fighting the AI is still fun, it would be even more enjoyable if it were better.

NPCs in 2.1 beta 4 was so good, that they have to nerf them. The thing you are talking about "survival instinct" was better than 95% of players. They nerf it. You could litteraly fly for a 15 min with a one eagle. You probably don't even understand what are you asking for.

 

[UnhappyDev]

The AI isn't playing to beat me, the AI is playing to cause attrition, and while fighting the AI is still fun, it would be even more enjoyable if it were better.

Well, what more can they do? NPCs are at a huge disadvantage, especially if you are fighting them in an engineered ship.

- They used to do the right thing and run away if they were getting beaten but this made for frustrating gameplay and was toned down in the 2.1 beta.
- They used to have potent engineered ships that were capable of destroying CMDRs - this was nerfed.

I feel a bit sorry for them.

 

[Arnoldo]

When NPCs were stupidly easier, we complained.
When NPCs were stupidly harder, we complained.
Now we still complain.

There is no situation that will please most of the player base,thus making FD look good.

I'm not complaining.....

<runs away and hides under a rock to protect himself from sharp 'white knight' spears>

 

[Mephane]

Okay, I have a complaint about the AI. No, it's not too hard, I can handle just about any AI ship out there. And it's not- that they're too easy per se. It's just- they don't seem to have any survival instinct. So, let me run you through the scenario I keep seeing. I get up behind my target, open up on the ship, and they'll hit the boost, gain a little distance, and as I approach, they stop, flip, and open up.

Sounds good so far, but- they don't even try to get out of my sights. The rest of the battle is then me flying around the enemy, as they- basically just sit where they are rotating along with my vertical and lateral thrusters. This kind of AI behavior bugs me. I understand it, I do, I remember the time when all the AI would do is fly defensively, and it was trivial to just stay behind them, because they weren't very good at defensive flying. But while this is more challenging for a certain values of challenge, no person fights like this. This behavior only exists because the AI's ships are expendable. They don't have rebuy costs, they don't need to work to engineer their modules, they just, pop into existence out in the sky.

The AI isn't playing to beat me, the AI is playing to cause attrition, and while fighting the AI is still fun, it would be even more enjoyable if it were better.

I posted about similar issues recently and apparently experiences among players are mixed.

I have reached the point where I would at the very least wish they would stop doing turreting and the reverski so often. It's just plain annoying...

 

[Leper Messiah]

This reminds me of Ai in racing Sims, some games they are on rails and never make mistakes, some try to emualte human behaviour and the Ai drives erratically...and most racing sims let you adjust the Ai difficulty. God knows how FD are going to balance the Ai on a single setting to keep everyone happy (they can't it's impossible).

I still propose FD should implement difficulty settings which will have an equal effect on payouts and BGS manipulation, so someone on a harder setting gets more credits and can effect the BGS to a greater degree than someone playing on an easier setting. ONE difficulty just cannot work. Plus you add in the complexity of builds....a combat Anaconda will be a different beast to face than an Exploration or trade anaconda and the Ai should have different tactics in either one. But how much CPU power is set aside for Ai? I bet it's low and any Ai programmer has to perform miracles to try to emulate humanish behaviour with limited resources.