I really don't expect a great deal of support for this, but I have to say it...

Elite Dangerous is hard for the muppets to grasp. It's a complex game in a complex universe and I would like to say that I enjoy the game immesely. Most of the people I have seen playing the game grasp the complexity and level of detail in the game and they spent the time and effort to learn the game precisely because of the immersion factor and their own personal passion and fascination with space flight and exploration.

Certainly that generalization isn't true for all, and I grok that reality.

Even so, I have to ask for one tiny massive change. No, that isn't a non sequitur. It's a tiny game change, but a massive gameplay change.

Please please please implement full newtonian space flight physics. Even if it's just in a separate patch or something. Boosters and thrust should be ACCELERATION and VECTOR CHANGE not VELOCITY.

For all the depth and immersion flying ships in ED is like driving cars or flying aircraft, not spacecraft. Ships in combat should be dealing with relative velocity differences rather than absolute.

We already have 'flight assist' but the physics are hard enough to challenge lazy people but just WRONG for everyone else. They make no sense. It seems to me to be the worst of both worlds. It's too challenging for lazy gamers to bother to learn and just for people who understand the basic mechanics.

Why in the heck would my absolute velocity have any effect whatever on my angular momentum? I can almost see power distribution affecting things if, for instnace, I have to divert some mass from my boosters to my thrusters, but when I terminate all acceleration I should have 100% capability to my thrusters to change my heading... but I don't.

Why even have the ability to turn off flight assist if you then nerf the entire point of having it? I should be able to choose my angle of attack on a target or station and then independently maneuver for a pre-planned vector change based on target response... yet my ship handles like I'm trying turn a semi truck on ice rather than simply rotate a stationary object and that's just wrong in every sense of the word, mathematically, tactically and even from an entertainment/skill perspective.

Also, accerlation curves should be constant when vector changes aren't being performed. Have a govenor or other limitation to prevent players from achieving velocities requiring relativistic dialation (or hell, just lag their packets to simulate observational frame slowdown if you want to teach a little hubris and physics at the same time). My throttle should be in Kps^2 not Kps gosh darn it. When I start running first, it should be calculated that my maximum accel relative mass must be overcome by my pursuer, not simply my maximum speed.

To come so close to a space flight sim only to have the very element I crave intentionally gutted from the game is depressing.

- longsuffering sigh
 
Yes, it would be a massive gameplay change. The flight model is the way it is to be fun gameplay, and newtonian jousting is not. If you want a demonstration, go crash things into each other in KSP.
 
'fun gameplay' doesn't apply with frameshift-based neutral velocity carry-over? I mean consider the reality, accelerating to rediculous velocities would be self-correcting since you may be hard to hit but you'd also be irrelevant and unable to inflict damage. I don't think very much would actually change in combat.

Absolute velocity when translating out of something like an Alcubierre bubble (which I assume is at least close to what the FSD is built around) would be 0, and thus acceleration curves would give a net effect of having an absolute maximum real velocity for a 0-0 target intercept unless you want to go shooting past your target so quickly that you can't possibly matter.

And let's not forget flight assist. It can "govern" velocity to a maximum accel/decel curve for intercept with target. The OPTION to turn it off means you're basically saying you understand the physics enough to know what you're doing. It doesn't force everyone to stop having fun.
 
I mean consider the reality, accelerating to rediculous velocities would be self-correcting since you may be hard to hit but you'd also be irrelevant and unable to inflict damage. I don't think very much would actually change in combat.
I think you're contradicting yourself by stating that the ability to effectively opt out of combat by flying at fast "true" speed would not change very much. Translating into someone else's frame of reference does not fix that, because see the second paragraph.

The game is set up so players are kept on the same field, and they can interact to bring others to a shared "arena" without spending so much time trying to match velocity that it'd make Mizar look like fast-paced entertainment. They are flying ships that steer more like airplanes to avoid jousting and turret matches, and ships move at relative speeds that can be communicated over most network connections without too much temporal and spatial artifacting. In short, it's set up to not have all the problems of what was IMAO the worst part of FE2. There are very few games that managed to pull off something like proper physics (looking at i-War, and even there more at the much more arcade #2), and those did so in a heavily scripted and contained environment.
 
agreed for the most part, but I think you are missing an important reality of the game physics that eliminates most of what you fear: the mutial desire for contact.

When you enter an arena, you are mass-locked to a point of reference (an asteroid belt, a planet, etc...) and the conflict is happening within a relatively strict volume of space. If the flight assist computer uses that volume as a reference for maximum absolute velocity then it can create a governing window allowing for relative velocity during combat as well as absolute maximum velocity for theatre. If you go over the maximum observed velocity then you either have to spend an incredibly annoying amount of time in accel/decel or frame-shift back to the origin point.

Thus there is both a practical and an objective reason for limiting absolute veloicty without requiring a hard game limit on it. If you want to fight at all, you have to either be willing to keep the flight assit on or capable of managing it yourself. The blue "manageable" region of the throttle could assist with this quite well.

Just because a ship is 8km away doesn't mean that accelerating at 250kph^2 for 20 seconds is going to be a good idea. You CAN do it, but it won't take more than a few derp moments to realize that you aren't really doing anything useful.

I sincerely believe that this would avoid making 'jousing' no more a reality than it is currently. In fact in many ways it might make it less, since one could plan to avoid it by matching relative velocity for engagement a part of flight assist. Maybe not, but my gut tells me it could be done in a game.
 
I think you're contradicting yourself by stating that the ability to effectively opt out of combat by flying at fast "true" speed would not change very much. Translating into someone else's frame of reference does not fix that, because see the second paragraph.

The game is set up so players are kept on the same field, and they can interact to bring others to a shared "arena" without spending so much time trying to match velocity that it'd make Mizar look like fast-paced entertainment. They are flying ships that steer more like airplanes to avoid jousting and turret matches, and ships move at relative speeds that can be communicated over most network connections without too much temporal and spatial artifacting. In short, it's set up to not have all the problems of what was IMAO the worst part of FE2. There are very few games that managed to pull off something like proper physics (looking at i-War, and even there more at the much more arcade #2), and those did so in a heavily scripted and contained environment.

In addition to my previous reply, I am fully aware of the practical limitations of 3D graphics and yet, in this case, those limittions provide a unique opportunity for gaming using newtonian physics.

The center point of the scene is set on any ship as a 0:0x(0,0,0) center point immediately following interdiction. From the perspective of the game, absolute velocity relative anything else in the system is irrelevant because it isn't high enough following collapse of the frame bubble to be meaningful. The ship that was interdicted gets the first move, almost like in a game of chess, but there are limitations. It can accelerate in any direction (exactly as the game allows for right now) and assuming that the intercepting ship doesn't have some means of keeping them within their engagement evelope they can escape.

However it would be relatively simple to use existing game mechancics to limit that option. Drive damage affecting acceleration. Proximity mines or proximity warheads providing countervaling sources of thrust are one example. Bolo teathers (as used in the firefly sceries by the reavers) would be another example...

I think all of these things could be leveraged as a way to give the game a greater depth of strategic endurance (instead of endless circle and shoot) while also providing useful practical insight into the realities of piloting spacecraft.
 
Elite Dangerous is hard for the muppets to grasp. It's a complex game in a complex universe and I would like to say that I enjoy the game immesely. Most of the people I have seen playing the game grasp the complexity and level of detail in the game and they spent the time and effort to learn the game precisely because of the immersion factor and their own personal passion and fascination with space flight and exploration.

Certainly that generalization isn't true for all, and I grok that reality.

Even so, I have to ask for one tiny massive change. No, that isn't a non sequitur. It's a tiny game change, but a massive gameplay change.

Please please please implement full newtonian space flight physics. Even if it's just in a separate patch or something. Boosters and thrust should be ACCELERATION and VECTOR CHANGE not VELOCITY.

For all the depth and immersion flying ships in ED is like driving cars or flying aircraft, not spacecraft. Ships in combat should be dealing with relative velocity differences rather than absolute.

We already have 'flight assist' but the physics are hard enough to challenge lazy people but just WRONG for everyone else. They make no sense. It seems to me to be the worst of both worlds. It's too challenging for lazy gamers to bother to learn and just for people who understand the basic mechanics.

Why in the heck would my absolute velocity have any effect whatever on my angular momentum? I can almost see power distribution affecting things if, for instnace, I have to divert some mass from my boosters to my thrusters, but when I terminate all acceleration I should have 100% capability to my thrusters to change my heading... but I don't.

Why even have the ability to turn off flight assist if you then nerf the entire point of having it? I should be able to choose my angle of attack on a target or station and then independently maneuver for a pre-planned vector change based on target response... yet my ship handles like I'm trying turn a semi truck on ice rather than simply rotate a stationary object and that's just wrong in every sense of the word, mathematically, tactically and even from an entertainment/skill perspective.

Also, accerlation curves should be constant when vector changes aren't being performed. Have a govenor or other limitation to prevent players from achieving velocities requiring relativistic dialation (or hell, just lag their packets to simulate observational frame slowdown if you want to teach a little hubris and physics at the same time). My throttle should be in Kps^2 not Kps gosh darn it. When I start running first, it should be calculated that my maximum accel relative mass must be overcome by my pursuer, not simply my maximum speed.

To come so close to a space flight sim only to have the very element I crave intentionally gutted from the game is depressing.

- longsuffering sigh

Try Frontier Elite 2 or Frontier First Encounters. They are about as hardcore as it gets for space physics...
 
I loved the 'mostly' Newtonian physics from I-War 1&2, and found them both fun and challenging.
However, on many occasions, I got a bit too throttle happy, and ended up slapping an asteroid/station/ship and uncontrollable speeds. Lol
I still much prefer I-War flight model over EDs, but I understand that ED has technical limitations due to online multiplayer that I-War didn't have.
Flying in ED is still alot of fun though.
Supercruise is not so much though.
Between the slow transitions, and slow acceleration and deceleration, it kinda sucks the fun out.
 
Have you ever played Elite II? I do, and I can tell you: A space fight with "real newtonian physics" may be scientifically correct - but ain't no fun to play. FD wisely decided to produce a game...not a space physic simulator.
 
[...]
Please please please implement full newtonian space flight physics. Even if it's just in a separate patch or something. Boosters and thrust should be ACCELERATION and VECTOR CHANGE not VELOCITY.
[...]
Why in the heck would my absolute velocity have any effect whatever on my angular momentum? I can almost see power distribution affecting things if, for instnace, I have to divert some mass from my boosters to my thrusters, but when I terminate all acceleration I should have 100% capability to my thrusters to change my heading... but I don't.
[...]

I would also love to have this in but if i remember correctly (It was explained in Alpha/Beta but I didn't look for the post again) the speed limits etc. where introduced because of the Peer to Peer network.
It was discovered very early that if the speed exceeds a certain threshold (I think it was 500) we have jumping spacecrafts because of bad network connections. For bots aka Solo mode that would not be an issue but for PvP or general player interaction in the same instance it would yield quite some problems (not just immersion problems).

So as long as we have a speed restriction Newtonian would always be flawed and nothing else then currently flight assist off.

Also they wanted to prevent the spacecraft turrets (people who just stay still and shoot since they can turn without restrictions), hence the optimal speed (blue area).

But what I would love (and would work) would be an option to decide which direction I can boost. So I can configure a ship to not be able to boost forward but backward (though less efficient).
 
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Have you ever played Elite II? I do, and I can tell you: A space fight with "real newtonian physics" may be scientifically correct - but ain't no fun to play. FD wisely decided to produce a game...not a space physic simulator.

As above. Aditionally this discussion was long running in original beta and FDev have clearly indicated that it is how it is and it's not changing. As someone who hated the extremely unenjoyable flight model in Elite II, I'm happy as things are.
 
As above. Aditionally this discussion was long running in original beta and FDev have clearly indicated that it is how it is and it's not changing. As someone who hated the extremely unenjoyable flight model in Elite II, I'm happy as things are.
There is one thing that ED has been pretty much universally praised for since the very first day of the Alpha version: the flight model. I agree that there's no chance they will change it.
 

dayrth

Volunteer Moderator
Boosters and thrust should be ACCELERATION and VECTOR CHANGE not VELOCITY.


Turn FA off and it is. The only non Newtonian bit then is top speed, and that is essential. Unlimited relative speed would make the game unplayable.
 
Turn FA off and it is. The only non Newtonian bit then is top speed, and that is essential. Unlimited relative speed would make the game unplayable.
no, it isn't. It surprises me how many people think it is. The physics are wrong.
 
Thanks all for the updates on the devs decisions. I suppose that network latency problem makes sense.

I once tried to figure out if it would be possible to use turn-based play (strategy) combined with RTS (engagments) to allow for frame-based time differences on a server.

The traveling salesman problem for markov event displacement taught me a bit of humility. (This is a combination of two problems, one in theoretical physics and the other in computer science and is based on observed time reversal outside of quantum events for FTL travel and event displacement in distributed networks. Effectively I'd have to have every packet held in shared memory queues to be delivered only after realtime passed plausible time)
 
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