I want open world BUT The cost of insurance will kill it. Unless !!

8
In my opinion "insurance cost" and the "solo/open" debate are in no way connected.

Since B2 i have never been attacked by another player unless i went to LP 98-132 where the only reason to go there is "looking for trouble".

They're very much connected when death carries no real penalty for non-IM players who can hop between Solo and Open modes AND interact with players in Ironman mode. Ironman players are looking for the full 'sim' experience but can be griefed by 'arcade' players with nothing to lose. How does that kind of game-design decision make any rational sense?
 
Awesome :)

Would love to know you xp more.
Have you come across any players? have you had any com chat with anyone?
Have you PVP anyone?
Do you think its better in open world then solo ?? and why?

Thanks for your time.
Zen

I tend to go where missions take me, so I get off the beaten track where there are fewer players.
Comms is still a bit clunky - there's rarely time to have a conversation unless both participants decide to stop what they're doing and hang out.

I've had PvP in the combat zones, generally I suck and the zones themselves got a lot more brutal after B2, so I went off and did other things.

I haven't been interdicted by a player yet.
The only weird behaviour I've seen was a player attempting to bump me while I was landing at a platform.

I play in open because I see players as part of the environment, their potential unexpected behaviour adds to the experience.

I think the general lack of player interaction is due to crappy netcode, I'm hoping there will be more of it in Gamma and beyond.
 
8

They're very much connected when death carries no real penalty for non-IM players who can hop between Solo and Open modes AND interact with players in Ironman mode. Ironman players are looking for the full 'sim' experience but can be griefed by 'arcade' players with nothing to lose. How does that kind of game-design decision make any rational sense?

But this thread isn't about ironman but insurance cost?
 
But this thread isn't about ironman but insurance cost?

Do you not see the obvious connection? The current insurance system pretty much makes destruction of ships inconsequential in the mid to lower end of the scale. So those players will not play 'realistically'. Sure, some will try to avoid death as an inconvenience but plenty of others will gung-ho attack anything on sight just for the arcade hell of it. And if their victim is somebody playing Ironman I can see serious sparks flying on the forum, and rightfully so.

Either fix the insurance system or separate the modes of play fully.
 
They're very much connected when death carries no real penalty for non-IM players who can hop between Solo and Open modes AND interact with players in Ironman mode. Ironman players are looking for the full 'sim' experience but can be griefed by 'arcade' players with nothing to lose. How does that kind of game-design decision make any rational sense?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I've read somewhere that IM players won't be able to see regular players and vice versa. Then there's still the problem of the open/solo switching, but I can't be too bothered about that. Also since when did gaming become more about relaxation and story and less about challenge and imagination? If I want to relax and follow a story I'll watch a movie or read a book.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
They're very much connected when death carries no real penalty for non-IM players who can hop between Solo and Open modes AND interact with players in Ironman mode. Ironman players are looking for the full 'sim' experience but can be griefed by 'arcade' players with nothing to lose. How does that kind of game-design decision make any rational sense?

Ironman is a totally different set of online modes - players in Ironman will not encounter any players in the "normal" online modes.

[edit] Ninja'd! [/edit]
 
Do you not see the obvious connection? The current insurance system pretty much makes destruction of ships inconsequential in the mid to lower end of the scale. So those players will not play 'realistically'. Sure, some will try to avoid death as an inconvenience but plenty of others will gung-ho attack anything on sight just for the arcade hell of it. And if their victim is somebody playing Ironman I can see serious sparks flying on the forum, and rightfully so.

Either fix the insurance system or separate the modes of play fully.

Regardless of insurance, there will always be cheaper ships and players that can afford them in masses.
A seperate mode could be an alternative but i think this could be solved with a private group, just as the PvE people did.
I see no way to include IM in open play so you can play and interact with everyone and at the same time hinder them to "interact" with you :(

Edit: better informed people already cleared that up :)
 
Plenty of full loot PvP games out there, EvE is isn't it. I played darkfall and that was brutal full loot, you needed to be playing full time to keep up the practice, needless to say I ran away quite a bit!!

I don't think the insurance is too bad, just plan with enough cash fora couple of crashes or being killed. You can always drop back to a private group to recoup cash!!



Hi All

Let me start with I am in love with this game and I was a lover of the very first Elite on my Com 64. yes that make me a 40YO+ Gamer

Back then if we die all we would need to do is reload save and try again. Now with always online worlds the penalty set us back 1-3 days worth of gaming (depending of cost of ship. currently my cost of insurance is just under 1.5M) !! how much can you make per day. And Is grinding a 'way of life' in gamming and MMO,s now???

So for the last months I have enjoyed Elite Dangerous and have worked hard at gearing my ship, will I take it to open world a risk being wiped over and over again.

NO sorry.. Solo play is where I will stay as I don't see any benefits.. Unless!!!

Open world cost of insurance was reduced to the point that I didn't care if that 20YO was kinking my ass over and over and over again.. ok I am over it :)

If the insurance in open world was reduced severely then everyone would risk more and play more in open world.

People who want PVP will really want this as it a big galaxy out there we need more to fill it of every skill level....

In the last 10 years of MMO gamming I have never faced such a penalty of death.. PVP or PVE World.

In RPGMMO if some one killed you the cost would be so little you didn't care.. you even risked revenge. At the cost of 1.5M... F that I am licked... later dude back to Solo play to grind up more cash for the next time I forget to request docking clearance and the space station wipes you. .. You all now what I am talking about don't dine you have not came close to it happening.

So please get up behind posts like this and others like it and enjoy a rich world of suckers like me hulling 192T of gold ripe for plunder in a open world of Elite Dangerous not just one filled with NPC. Who know one day I mite learn how to fight back in my ASP...

Your thought's

Zen
 
I kind of agree with both sides here
.
Death needs to hurt but if it hurts too much non uber players may well just go solo and probably stay there.

I don't think there will be an issue with "non uber" players, they'll be in open play, solo and group play, it won't be an issue.
.
I think the point is that if the insurance is TOO high then there will be fewer people in the open game and therefore it will seem very very empty. It will seem pretty empty anyway with players spread over such a huge map. Maybe to a point where those who crave PvP/piracy will move to other games and elite will just be an upgraded single player version of it's original self.

Insurance has to be higher than it is now, in order to make death an undesirable state. As it is now, death doesn't hurt, it's just a minor inconvenience. Death should hurt, that increases risk and makes the game more exciting. People will also be spread far and wide across 400 billion star systems. David Braben has stated himself, many times, it will be rare to run into another player.
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The current system really hurts owners of bigger ships and has the potential to reduce ship usage to the lower end and the fancy, expensive ships will be used less which would be a shame.

It doesn't hurt big ship owners any more than anyone else, 10% is 10%, if you can make enough to obtain a bigger ship, you can make enough to keep 10% set aside for emergencies, all it takes is good money management. It will be harder, but again, death should be more than an irritant, it should be an undesirable state to be avoided. In real life, it is the end to everything, in a game you respawn, don't make it so everyone's a daredevil and doing stupid things because they can get away with it.
.
I tend to stick to smaller ships, currently the eagle and cobra to lessen the impact. I will probably run a viper but to be honest the risk gets a little too steep for me after that.

Up until now I've stayed with the Cobra as well, not because I couldn't get into something bigger, but because the Cobra is balanced for my play style, and it gives me plenty of opportunity to trade, fight, and explore, as I wish. After release that may change, I do have my heart set on living in an Asp, it's a goal I'm setting for myself, something to keep me playing. Once I reach that goal, I'll set myself other goals, that's how I played Elite back in the day, and how I play it now.
 
The only problem I have with the insurance system is the fact that it penalises traders much, much more than fighters. If cargo was included, even paying 10% of the value then it would be much more equal than what we have now. As for open vs group / solo, I currently favour the latter two since I get better game performance, nothing to do with risk or insurance cost..

G
 
Very good reply

And you are making my point but from a defiant angle in think. First have you done any PVP in this game to date? if you have how often? would love to know.

The main point I am making is "Open play won't make any difference, NPCs are more of a hassle than players can be, and there won't be as many players as NPCs anyway,"

In my experience Players are quite often better than NPC. but that's my opinion.

Thanks
Zen
I've done quite a lot of PvP, pretty much everytime the occasion presented itself, and I got killed plenty times, but then I also teamed with some of them to take on larger enemies, and to others, I simply said "hi".

But NPCs... well, one of the features we're supposed to be getting, and the one I'm looking forward to the most, is the ability to communicate with NPCs. Unless there's a miracle, players will still remain a lot more comprehensive, empathetic, and talkative than NPCs are.
Because you won't tell a NPC pirate "come on, it's the seventh time I get interdicted on the way, just take this canister of gold and leave me alone!", because he'll remain a pirate. But a player can change his mind. And I'm not sure you'll make friends with NPCs, nor even team up with them, because while they can have consideration for you in regard of your reputation or how much you pay them for it, players could just on the basis that you're human like them, and play with you at no other cost than fun. Now sure, players are much more smarter than AI, but they won't be the coldest killers in the galaxy.

There are many reasons online games aren't incredibly popular these days, and the challenge brought by humans compared with AI seems second to the much richer interactions a human can provide, that aren't necessarily "smarter", but that are more varied, unexpected and interesting. Sure, in Elite, they can attack you, but they can do many more things than that, and it'd be a pity to sacrifice all online interaction because of the small probability of encountering one that is hostile, and because you see that as the worst thing that can happen in game. And that last part really seems to me like the real problem.

I mean I get it, we've been through over a decade of games that aimed to be easier, simpler, and with no more "game over". But then, there's an "end game" problem. I often see threads around here asking "what will you do once you finally have the ship you want?": right there, that's an "end game" problem, because they are people who consider the way to play games is to reach the end, and then just stay at the end, like playing checkers, and continuing to play alone on the board with your pawns once you finally beat your opponent, when the sound thing to do is to start a new game. What I'll do myself is try to keep this ship, and try to survive, and hopefully given enough time someone will destroy my ship and/or kill me, and I'll do it all over again.

Elite: Dangerous is a game that aims to have you struggle to reach the end, and struggle to remain there, because it has plenty "game over" and no "end game". So to me, it's not so much a problem of others ruining your progress, it's a problem of you thinking progress should always go forward, and expecting to reach some "end game". But thing is, NPCs will be just as much of a problem, and will try just as hard to annihilate your progression.
Playing in open will make no difference, what you need to learn to do is quite simply to accept to lose. I realize this could pass as mean things to say, but that's really how I see things, and I don't see this as being mean myself, it's just a different way to play games, and actually, the "right" way to me: all those casual games stray so far away from the idea of a "game", they're more of a "toy", meaning they put you in control and don't challenge you, when a game is expected to take control away from you by subjecting you to rules, and provide challenge. The boundary gets thinner every year, but Elite: Dangerous is a game, not a toy.
 
The only problem I have with the insurance system is the fact that it penalises traders much, much more than fighters. If cargo was included, even paying 10% of the value then it would be much more equal than what we have now. As for open vs group / solo, I currently favour the latter two since I get better game performance, nothing to do with risk or insurance cost..

G

Again, that's part of the risk of the game. If there was no risk, it would get boring real quick and everyone would quit playing.
 
I kind of agree with both sides here
.
Death needs to hurt but if it hurts too much non uber players may well just go solo and probably stay there.
.
I think the point is that if the insurance is TOO high then there will be fewer people in the open game and therefore it will seem very very empty. It will seem pretty empty anyway with players spread over such a huge map. Maybe to a point where those who crave PvP/piracy will move to other games and elite will just be an upgraded single player version of it's original self.
.
The current system really hurts owners of bigger ships and has the potential to reduce ship usage to the lower end and the fancy, expensive ships will be used less which would be a shame.
.
I tend to stick to smaller ships, currently the eagle and cobra to lessen the impact. I will probably run a viper but to be honest the risk gets a little too steep for me after that.

I kind of agree with both sides here
.
Death needs to hurt but if it hurts too much non uber players may well just go solo and probably stay there.
.
I think the point is that if the insurance is TOO high then there will be fewer people in the open game and therefore it will seem very very empty. It will seem pretty empty anyway with players spread over such a huge map. Maybe to a point where those who crave PvP/piracy will move to other games and elite will just be an upgraded single player version of it's original self.
.
The current system really hurts owners of bigger ships and has the potential to reduce ship usage to the lower end and the fancy, expensive ships will be used less which would be a shame.
.
I tend to stick to smaller ships, currently the eagle and cobra to lessen the impact. I will probably run a viper but to be honest the risk gets a little too steep for me after that.

I total agree with your post here well worded, you both understand the point I am trying to make and the Issue at hand.

But this thread isn't about ironman but insurance cost?

This thread is about lack of people in open world play. IMO the cost is what will hold people back from going there.
Before I started this quest I had now idea about Ironman mode was.

In my opinion "insurance cost" and the "solo/open" debate are in no way connected.


Cost of Death for good or bad has impact on you're choices in the game full stop. The question is will that cost reduce the potential that this game has to offer in the open world environment.


Since B2 i have never been attacked by another player unless i went to LP 98-132 where the only reason to go there is "looking for trouble".

I think you're making my very point here... You don't meet many other players.

this is much a do about nothing..... i have in the last 2 weeks of open game play, seen EXACTLY 2 people.. and both of them i saw at the local star scooping fuel before jumping out again. .
Once again you're making my very point here... You don't meet many other players in open world.
reducing the death penalty would maybe make YOU feel better about losing.. but what about when some at decides that the penalty is acceptable enough that he can hunt new people in the start areas and not worry about buying a new ship because the penalty is so low?.
Yes you make a valid point. There will be a need for balance. But I think they will have a "Pilot's Federation bounty" system. This MAY resolve that problem,
Copied and pasted from Elite Dangerous.Pilots Guide.Manual.Tutorial.pdf
Sourced from these forums.

We also have a "Pilot's Federation bounty" coming at
some point. This system is specifically aimed at cooling
unnecessary player versus player violence by allowing
commanders to put out bounties on other commanders
that destroy their ships (the Pilot's Federation frowns
upon infighting).
Of course, there will be various soft counters that
allow commanders to get bounties wiped or reduced,
turned into fines, pirate stations etc. We want to make
sure that both villainy and virtue are feasible game
play styles.
So there's also private groups and solo-play marching
towards us, which basically cater for player that really
have a problem with player versus player in general.
There is abounty system in place. Unless you are in an
anarchy or a conflict zone, every time you open up on
someone who doesn't have a criminal record, you *will*
be putting a bounty on your head, making you a legal
target for everyone around (including authority ships
that patrol, scanning for criminals).


Thank goodness DB and the FD team are making the Game DB wants and not the watered down drivel that comes from a "Community" built game.
Sorry but I can't help but laugh at statements like this. You don't get it do you. The "Community" is the customer here and that DB and the FD team are making the Game for the them. Offcourse they are not going to change the game every time they see someone making a post about something they don't like end of the day they have a vision for what this game will be, but with constructive feedback we could help them make this game more awesome.


Zen
 

MorkFromOrk

Banned
You don't get it do you. The "Community" is the customer here and that DB and the FD team are making the Game for the them. Offcourse they are not going to change the game every time they see someone making a post about something they don't like end of the day they have a vision for what this game will be, but with constructive feedback we could help them make this game more awesome.

Been through many 'design by committee' projects. It takes far longer and pleases fewer people because of the fear of offending rather than the desire to please. Sure there are exceptions but I am firmly in the camp that the customer doesn't know what they need and it is therefore pointless to ask them, they simply know what they want when they see it once it has been made.

A potential customer that says 'I want a faster horse' ultimately might buy the car when invented. Under no circumstances that I can imagine would the community have invented the car, at best we would have ended up with lots of dead horses that were overfed steroids.
 
Been through many 'design by committee' projects. It takes far longer and pleases fewer people because of the fear of offending rather than the desire to please. Sure there are exceptions but I am firmly in the camp that the customer doesn't know what they need and it is therefore pointless to ask them, they simply know what they want when they see it once it has been made.

A potential customer that says 'I want a faster horse' ultimately might buy the car when invented. Under no circumstances that I can imagine would the community have invented the car, at best we would have ended up with lots of dead horses that were overfed steroids.

end of the day they have a vision for what this game will be, but with constructive feedback we could help them make this game more awesome.


Zen
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