If I were as clever as Frontier I would have built elite differently

NPC Wingmen, coming to an elite game near you.

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anyways, the game is based off what we know, what we think we know (about space) and all variations of the game for the past 32 years. Yes 32 years.

Star Citizen on the other hand may promise, and keep promising, but after two years and you only get arena commander which is still meh at best, and a p2w method of giving people ships that they will get at the beginning by buying them, and don't say its not pay to win, because it is, it gives them an advantage at the beginning of the game, it doesn't matter if they say their going to kill the ship market.

So I look at Star Citizen like it's a grain of salt, because thats all it is so far with all of its promised features that haven't come to fruition.
 
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In a sense ED was designed "Think Big, start small", the "the Think big" be more in the ground work that has been done,the "Start small" the content we have right now.

The way i see it right now, ED can become something amazing with time, because the groundwork is their they will not get "limited" by a halfhearted groundwork or using a engine that doesnt support their ideas *cough SC cough*

Supercruise some people hate it some people love it, but only Supercruise gives you a sense of scale in the game. A jump from station to station thing makes a play area "artifically" small because you travel like its nothing, i wouldnt like ED when i just undock from a station set my destination jump and would be again infront of a station to dock to. There wouldnt be a sense of infinite space in such a method.

Even Freelancer used travel as many other games to show a sense of scale.

Take Skyrim for a example, try to play it without fasttravel, and you realise how big the world is couple that wih some mods to make traveling interesting and you get a complete new immersive game from that. That the only thing lacking in the game but you can fill up supercruise with as much events you want in the end it is the traveler that needs to "stray" from the road in order to encounter those events.
 
TLDR

If I was them I would have done things a little different:
1) Studied Elite more and built on that idea merging in the FFE Galaxy, Elite as a blueprint would have given us amusing messages about each inhabited system.

2) Designed ALL of the Elite 1 ships for ED, bringing over Frontiers and FFE's. Ones that didnt make the cut I would have a archive in the game so you could see what happened to them.

3) Added Jumpdrive, basically the same as FSD but can be stopped instantly and started instantly. Masslock would be on a stance basis so if there is neutral or hostiles within range your masslocked but not by friends.

4) Made it server/client based with pockets of reality around the players so the server only sends them relative information depending on the System and X, Y, Z in that system.

5) Brought over FFE's BBS and updated it with a more richer mission structure and information systems.

6) Made it so ships have internal space which is taken up by modules so every ship you come across isnt the same no matter the base chassis.

7) Added internal mail system so players could leave mail for other players to get when they are in the game.

8) Planetary landings using perlin noise for surfaces and a modular approach for alien life

9) Getting out of your pilot seat and walk around your ship, or leave and explore the station (if docked) or planet if landed. Distance based on atmosphere and oxygen supplies.

I have it from a VERY reliable source that ED isnt the game Ian Bell wanted to make he wanted a more quick to play game which Elite was. ED seems a more longer winded idea than what he intended.

Got to ask... while adding all this, which features would you have dropped? Or you would have done a SC and postponed release for a few years while you got all the content in? How would you manage the budget on this project?

Its easy to be an armchair developer, not so easy in the real world.

Also, AFAIK, Ian Bell didn't want anything to do with ED. He fell out with DB a long time ago.
 
TLDR

If I was them I would have done things a little different:
1) Studied Elite more and built on that idea merging in the FFE Galaxy, Elite as a blueprint would have given us amusing messages about each inhabited system.

2) Designed ALL of the Elite 1 ships for ED, bringing over Frontiers and FFE's. Ones that didnt make the cut I would have a archive in the game so you could see what happened to them.

3) Added Jumpdrive, basically the same as FSD but can be stopped instantly and started instantly. Masslock would be on a stance basis so if there is neutral or hostiles within range your masslocked but not by friends.

4) Made it server/client based with pockets of reality around the players so the server only sends them relative information depending on the System and X, Y, Z in that system.

5) Brought over FFE's BBS and updated it with a more richer mission structure and information systems.

6) Made it so ships have internal space which is taken up by modules so every ship you come across isnt the same no matter the base chassis.

7) Added internal mail system so players could leave mail for other players to get when they are in the game.

8) Planetary landings using perlin noise for surfaces and a modular approach for alien life

9) Getting out of your pilot seat and walk around your ship, or leave and explore the station (if docked) or planet if landed. Distance based on atmosphere and oxygen supplies.

I have it from a VERY reliable source that ED isnt the game Ian Bell wanted to make he wanted a more quick to play game which Elite was. ED seems a more longer winded idea than what he intended.

Your post was just as long as what has been said before but I did bother to read it. :p.

Most of what you suggested is more or less what FD have done or is planned for later on.

Are you honestly suggesting David Braben needed to study the previous games more and that you cannot stop SC whenever you want?

Have you played ED or was that too much for you too?
 
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correct
the billion ´systems´was just there for marketing, makes no sense whatsoever and offers zero benefit or variation, but it was probably cheap and easy to generate.
They can say ´look, big game´.

Until of course they add planetary landings etc. Then all those systems will be a lot more interesting to investigate.
 
I've certainly had my doubts about this game (though I backed it in beta so given the money spent I hoped it would succeed). I still have some doubts that it will ever make good on allll the early promises. However, I think it's a fun game and I think it'll shape up to be a really awesome game once it gets deeper (and it will).

I completely agree with the sentiment that it feels small and empty. The system size is cool and definitely a marketing gimmick (for years we've had far smaller games that were absolutely just fine and fun to play). However, what they need to do is take the procedural generation tech and put it toward a more varied game asset use.

What I mean by that is the planets and systems are very random and many and that's nice -- but the ship modules and missions and enemies are not. They are very static in nature and limited in scope. However, they have the ability to make it more random and massive.

Now I understand you can't go completely insane with the combinations of modules and such, as it might make for a far too confusing game and a weird economy (though their classes/grades can assist with the economy part by grouping things into price ranges despite the fact individual items within that group vary in quality the price would be more of a rounding/bulk thing).

Providing many options for customization and making scenarios where the "best" is a little confusing or changes based on a number of factors would make the game very deep. So it's actually not that far of a stretch to employ this in the game. In fact, we already see some confusion about "best" with regard to how much your ship weighs. ...But as it stands today, there are simply not enough modules. Not enough ships. I know this will change though.

Finding modules that can be salvaged (and more valuable modules the farther out you went) would add a bigger purpose to exploration instead of just identifying systems and making some credits. Much bigger reward. I don't know if that was ever planned or not, but that's about the only thing I can think of that I'd like to see. Something like that. Definitely more variety and options and modules though.

I think the Powerplay features will add a lot of depth and replay value for sure...But it needs to be pushed a bit more.

The good news is Elite is slowly, but surely making it. There's some great stuff to come and while I firmly believe the game was released wayyyyy before it was ready or should have been...Many players have proven that it simply doesn't matter when you release something...So long as you continue to improve it. Which they are doing.

So I don't know how you'd do it different...Because I don't think the things to knock the game on had anything to do with the actual mechanics of the game (despite what I listed above), but more marketing and planning. I think business decisions made for a rocky start here...But the gaming industry is notorious for running sloppy businesses that anger people. I need not say anymore than: EA =)
 
Until of course they add planetary landings etc. Then all those systems will be a lot more interesting to investigate.
I love your optimism but they cannot make space interesting, planets will highlight the limitations of the game even further.

The game needs the illusion of reality, all it does at the moment is highlight the illusion. Grinding is not gameplay, lots of grinding is not deep gameplay.

The game has gone with a p2p architecture which limits what is possible, without this the content could have been up to the players just look at Minecraft. Minecraft gives the players the tools to generate content, ED is sandbox where the sand is glued in place.
 
You dont have the "correct" sky without all the stars being there. I think the trick that was missed was making it all visible from the get go. I think it should be hidden on the galaxy/system maps unless you have been there or bought the data. That way it would feel much smaller. PP is an attempt to bring focus to a small area, now they need to get people to that area and into open.
 
What's clever got to do with it?
If you were 'in charge of FD' might be the better phrase.
[]
If I were in charge of FD and the development of ED .... FD would have gone out of business.:rolleyes:
Why, you may ask.
I would have made ED a game that only I would have liked.
I would also have a forum that did not allow whinging gits post their pathetic moaning and stupid wish lists.
:D
Got my tin hat on, over my NBC clobber. Chaff at the ready!:p
 
What's clever got to do with it?
If you were 'in charge of FD' might be the better phrase.
[]
If I were in charge of FD and the development of ED .... FD would have gone out of business.:rolleyes:
Why, you may ask.
I would have made ED a game that only I would have liked.
I would also have a forum that did not allow whinging gits post their pathetic moaning and stupid wish lists.
:D
Got my tin hat on, over my NBC clobber. Chaff at the ready!:p

No. I'd have done the same thing. It wouldn't have been multiplayer, but would have been Frontier: First Encounters crossed with iWar, with Hardwar's design aesthetic, modelled systems in far to much detail, come out 7 years too late, and would have probably sold 300 copies in total. :)
 
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Got to ask... while adding all this, which features would you have dropped? Or you would have done a SC and postponed release for a few years while you got all the content in? How would you manage the budget on this project?

Its easy to be an armchair developer, not so easy in the real world.

Also, AFAIK, Ian Bell didn't want anything to do with ED. He fell out with DB a long time ago.

Well being a developer myself I do tend to see where things could have been improved, the stance system for jumpdrive for example worked fine in Elite Multiplayer when we had people playing it before the 'cease and desist'. I put the Ian Bell statement in there as it has been said elsewhere that this is the game they had originally intended when Elite was released.

Your post was just as long as what has been said before but I did bother to read it. :p.

Most of what you suggested is more or less what FD have done or is planned for later on.

Are you honestly suggesting David Braben needed to study the previous games more and that you cannot stop SC whenever you want?

Have you played ED or was that too much for you too?

Basically the whole universe in ED is miniscule, as an example you only see stations when your right on top of them. Basically the whole thing isnt there until its within range of being displayed hence the supercruise is basically a instancing thing so you can go from a-b a bit quicker. When your in range of a station you drop out and its loaded in for you to see. Have a look at ( http://www.edzup.co.uk/SRDemo/SRDemo.html ) same size system just top down.

Until of course they add planetary landings etc. Then all those systems will be a lot more interesting to investigate.
This is providing they actually ADD stuff on planets that will make it interesting four hundred billion empty rocks will get boring as quick as four hundred billion empty star systems. Alternatively No Mans Sky would also get as boring if all the aliens and indigenous creatures all looked the same.
 
I agree, the Large Expanse of Space is definately there for the Explorer. One thing I wish was not a thing though, Restricted Systems with out a Pass.... (Sol) Visiting Earth is one thing ALL should be able to do, perhaps once you Alligned with an apposing faction, THEN the restrictions apply... us Neutral folk wanna fly past Mars, and see how Ol Earth is doing.
 
if i was the CEO of FD I would have likely taken all the money, paid some other guy to run the company while i traveled the world and blew it on expensive parties..


so its probably good i was never elected to be CEO ;)
 
Well being a developer myself I do tend to see where things could have been improved, the stance system for jumpdrive for example worked fine in Elite Multiplayer when we had people playing it before the 'cease and desist'. I put the Ian Bell statement in there as it has been said elsewhere that this is the game they had originally intended when Elite was released.



Basically the whole universe in ED is miniscule, as an example you only see stations when your right on top of them. Basically the whole thing isnt there until its within range of being displayed hence the supercruise is basically a instancing thing so you can go from a-b a bit quicker. When your in range of a station you drop out and its loaded in for you to see. Have a look at ( http://www.edzup.co.uk/SRDemo/SRDemo.html ) same size system just top down.


This is providing they actually ADD stuff on planets that will make it interesting four hundred billion empty rocks will get boring as quick as four hundred billion empty star systems. Alternatively No Mans Sky would also get as boring if all the aliens and indigenous creatures all looked the same.

What difference would it make to your game if there were less systems in ED?

You would still need SC to travel between celestial bodies in a system and you would still need hyperspace to get between systems.

Space is mind bogglingly big. 10000 systems or 400 billion would not make much difference to that (except players would have already explored all of the systems if it were 10000).

When they add planetary it will be adding more variety over time (gas giants, airless moons, planets with life roaming around). FD want to get it right (and provide a suitable amount of difference between each) using procedural generation as they have been doing with stations, outposts and celestial bodies.

You don't see things until you are right in top of them for two reasons; because anything else would require some artificial magnification - how much of a ship on the horizon (a few kms away) can you actually see? and for game engine efficiency - there isn't a 3d game made where they don't do this by adding a draw distance, by putting you in a zone/room or by obscuring your view distance by other objects.

I think you may be missing the point of having so many systems. It is about having the freedom to choose where you want to go, to be able to play in heavier populated systems or in areas where there are few or no players. Visiting every system and expecting it to be completely different and have a distinct purpose is for games with a small number of hand crafted zones. Games which have to be expanded once players become bored with the ones you have.

The whole point of procedural generation is that it gives you a greater freedom because you are not limited to the number of systems created by a developer. That is the same for games in the pipeline line like single player low poly toonish No Man's Sky or multi-player hi-res games like ED.

Supercruise is far more than an instancing place holder or loader screen (like the hyperspace jump mechanism which definitely is). It allows freedom to travel through space at FTL speeds but also has to deal with being able to drop you into an instance anywhere at any time (which is why you get the loading sequence).

I am sure all of us would like to have a completely seamless experience but in an MP environment that is an extremely big technical ask. There isn't a game out there that does it in an MP environment except where world travel speeds are slow enough to allow continuous background loading of the next area to appear within your draw distance. The speeds we are effectively travelling in SC makes that impossible.

Not sure I get the point you are trying to make here. Are you saying the variation that you see is not enough for you (or too subtle) or that you have no interest in it so FD shouldn't waste their time on it?
 
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Thanks for the interesting thoughts. much appreciated. I can see now the diversity of how others see and want the game to be like. Much respect to the developers.

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I wasn't whinging just sharing my thoughts which you clearly do not like.

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And the job I went for was in the IT technical department.
Again thanks all for everyone's input.
 
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Firstly I would have started off with a much smaller amount of systems and concentrated on more content and diversity (Including planet landings in the first commercial release). Once that was all in place I would have then been able to use that 'template' and added more systems in future updates. That way there would be a lot more variety in space stations and things to do...

I partly agree with you, but for different reasons than yours. I agree there is lack of content and direction, but I don't think this is down to the huge galaxy or the method of its creation. More important is that FD seemed to simply run out of time for content development during the alpha and beta test phases due to necessary focus on wider issues, particularly networking. They have promised more content, and I don't see any reason to disbelieve them.

The really big problem I see at the moment is that the game is a bit of a "split-personality". FD have set themselves the goal of making a game that is not a clone of every other online multiplayer game. They also want (or at least originally wanted) the game to be very much like the earlier games in the franchise so it would appeal to the old audience. However in attempting to achieve these goals they have chosen to reject many of the mechanisms and features that are staples of MMOs. In doing so they are excluding the very things that make online games enjoyable for many (probably most) online gamers.

I think ED is at a crossroads in its development and the company is going to have to seriously consider whether it wants to hold onto the original design concepts or embrace a more mainstream vision that encourages and promotes player groups and cooperative gameplay. You can only encourage players by offering higher financial rewards, ranks and more expensive ships for so long. Eventually players will want to actually do something meaningful with those resources. Powerplay is an attempt to address this, but I don't think it goes far enough or really gets to the heart of the matter.
 
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