Imagine combat without....

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…
PS.
When a fully kitted Viper encounters an Anaconda..... That tiny Viper should only do one thing. Run for its life. Just run. Fast.
…

That's why all big Navies have that many battleships and carrier always cruise around alone.

Realistically a Viper should be able to destroy an Anaconda with almost no effort. Two or 4 torpedos should deal with the Anaconda while being well outside the weapons range or the Anaconda. Sure, that wouldn't be a good game balance.

In my opinion an Anaconda (and other big ships) should have a hard time destroying a Viper, Vulture or Eagle. At the same time those small ships shouldn't be able to really hurt (that much) those big ships (big ship being able to go way anytime it wants). That way flying a small ship would have an advantage against big ships - they won't get destroyed in seconds and can go away anytime they want. This would make it useless for a big ship to attack a small ship and encourage fights between ships of the same class. This would add variation to the ships used and the PvP.

Problem is, that FD painted itself in a corner with the current combat system.

 

[Colonel North]

Yup, I SUCK with fixed weapons.

Yep I do too. Thanks for being brave enough to admit it first, I was too much of a coward. Solidarity and rep given!

 

[Deleted member 38366]

--- Deleted ---

 

[charognard]

I often wonder what the game would be like without gimbled weapons, guided weapons and shield cells! Would the likes of the Viper and Eagle have a decent place in PvP? I just feel the smaller ships are outclassed too much by the Conda's and big ships. I watched a very good Youtuber battle a Conda with cells for 15-20 minutes and only got him down to 99% hull before having to go. The Viper was almost fully fitted and this guy PvP's and bounty hunts as his main money earner.

Now I understand big battle ships should be strong but I just feel even though I have my fully fitted Viper docked up elsewhere I'll never actually fly it again. A decent skilled smaller ship pilot should be able to take out less skilled pilots in big ships but I just don't feel 1v1 this can happen at the moment, even 2v1 seems the odds are still against the small guys.

I think there needs to be more of a penalty for using cells and gimbled weapons. Maybe if you use a cell it overloads your frame drive for 1 minute or using a cell drains gimbled power. Something to balance out!

Anyone agree?

Without gimbled weapons, it's called IL2 SoB, and yes it's great and you need some real skills !! Gimbled are heresy.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…
Fleets are build to optimize against all kinds of threats in any mix.
…

Fleets.

And torpedos (or missiles) would be build to be stealth, fast and could be fired well outside the range of the big ships sensor systems.

Anyway, it doesn't matter what realistically would happen - we are talking about space ships that fly faster than light after all. Important is the game balance. Elite Dangerous is a game and it should be fun/entertaining. Invulnerable big ships simply aren't fun. Ships that are to easily destroyed aren't fun. It's all about the balance between offense and defense. Currently the combat mechanics are out of balance - in my opinion.

Each ship class should have their purpose, their strength and their weakness. Again, my opinion.
For example: small ships should be much faster than big ships - not realistic, but it would make using small ships a useful option in the game. There are probably a lot of things that can be done to balance the combat without making one or the other ship type obsolete.

 

[Mephane]

What about Shield cells draining system capacitor, and gimballed weapons using more weapons capacitor?

FYI, the latter is already the case.

 

[Alex Brentnall]

Fleets.

And torpedos (or missiles) would be build to be stealth, fast and could be fired well outside the range of the big ships sensor systems.

Anyway, it doesn't matter what realistically would happen - we are talking about space ships that fly faster than light after all. Important is the game balance. Elite Dangerous is a game and it should be fun/entertaining. Invulnerable big ships simply aren't fun. Ships that are to easily destroyed aren't fun. It's all about the balance between offense and defense. Currently the combat mechanics are out of balance - in my opinion.

Each ship class should have their purpose, their strength and their weakness. Again, my opinion.
For example: small ships should be much faster than big ships - not realistic, but it would make using small ships a useful option in the game. There are probably a lot of things that can be done to balance the combat without making one or the other ship type obsolete.

Sure I posted this exact thing a short while back on a similar thread:
Combat was sort of ok before shield boosters/cell banks. It has turned from who shoots first to who has the longest lasting shield. Before you could use stealth and surprise attacks to win battles which is lost when it takes 10 full seconds just to take a shield down.

For smaller ships being faster, arn't they?
Eagle/Cobra/Viper all much much much faster than T9/Conda/Python
The only ships that rock the balance are the FDL and Clipper. Clipper has poor weapon placement. FDL has poor jump range.

Personally I don't think the ships and weapons are out of balance. Possibly tweak the turrets and gimballs like Frontier are doing in 1.3 but the ships and weapons are ok. Its the Cell banks and Boosters imo that are non-skill based.

Even a Conda with an A7 shields (no boosters/SCB's) should loose against two Vipers who come up behind in silent running, but if the Vipers come up from the front without stealth the Conda should swat them down like flies since thats how its supposed to be, right?
Also a thing to keep in mind on this post is the "realism vs gameplay" argument since we can make it a perfect model of the universe thats boring and tedious or we can make it a shooter pew pew in space thats fun but lacks meaning, or we can go down the middle as we are now

 

[Yomamas Fett]

Right now gimpled do 75% of fixed damage, IMHO I could live with that being reduced to 66%.

 

[lovely lovely]

No thanks. Im going to make the Minecraft vs Garrys mod comparison this time I argue with you (Im sure we have done this no insurance rodeo before):
If you have to work for that giant TNT mountain you just created its rewarding, fulfilling and interesting as the pressure builds not to make a mistake. If you are just given the ability to spawn 1000 ragdolls and 100 TNT barrels its about as fulfilling and rewarding as being slapped in the face.

Removing Insurance would just make the game a time sink. Literally the worlds worst player could eventually get an A rated Anaconda provided he played long enough since there is absolutely 0 risk in any combat encounter.
People are already complaining about it catering to the obsessives and not the casual gamer as well as those who complain the combat no longer requires skill.

Sure you can currently loose a few hours/weeks/months work depending on how you play but once you understand how insurance works it really isn't a problem keep at least 2X insurance in the bank. If you die downgrade your ship so you still have insurance. Better to loose 2 hours work than 2 weeks. Some would argue the whole insurance thing makes the game way too easy already. Have it so you totally loose your ship everytime you die. (obviously hardcore mode which I personally think is going too far but whatever).

Tl:dr Noooooo!!!!! (in my opinion )

There is one scenario where it would be excellent imo. I think though during fighting CGs it'd encourage more PvP - ie the CG faction you chose within a CZ agrees to cover the cost as after all, you are fighting for their cause and not yours. I base this on most CZs comprise of NPC for most of the time, however when a cmdr Fdl or wing of cmdr vultures does happen to rock up I notice cmdrs wait to see what colour it goes then scarpers on red.


Don't forget the CGs that are in CZs are there to encourage pew pew - for this reason alone the CG faction should cover the costs. You would get epic encounters within these small windows imo. The added bonus, these pew pewers aren't around to annoy the rest of the community who would happily carry on their own events



All other events, insurance stays unchanged.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…
Also a thing to keep in mind on this post is the "realism vs gameplay" argument since we can make it a perfect model of the universe thats boring and tedious or we can make it a shooter pew pew in space thats fun but lacks meaning, or we can go down the middle as we are now

It depends on your definition of fun. I think combat in Elite Dangerous would be more fun if all ships had their use in combat/open mode against all other ships. Combat should take some time, but without turning it into SCB spamming. A good middle ground if you like to call it that way.

PS: Ship speed was probably not the exact right word. Maneuverability and the option to disengage form combat at will would be closer to what I meant. But that's an other discussion.

 

[Alex Brentnall]

There is one scenario where it would be excellent imo. I think though during fighting CGs it'd encourage more PvP - ie the CG faction you chose within a CZ agrees to cover the cost as after all, you are fighting for their cause and not yours. I base this on most CZs comprise of NPC for most of the time, however when a cmdr Fdl or wing of cmdr vultures does happen to rock up I notice cmdrs wait to see what colour it goes then scarpers on red.


Don't forget the CGs that are in CZs are there to encourage pew pew - for this reason alone the CG faction should cover the costs. You would get epic encounters within these small windows imo. The added bonus, these pew pewers aren't around to annoy the rest of the community who would happily carry on their own events



All other events, insurance stays unchanged.

I think I posted something similar recently, can't remember where (I agree with you fully on the combat zone side of things but the income value may need to be adjusted).

But yeah, I sort of like the idea, it just needs to be done right...

Edit coming shortly: I recently had the idea of war faction missions where you sign up and wait for a certain number of other CMDR's on both teams. Both sides are shipped out next to a small NPC fleet formation in hired ships and its a until death kinda fight with no hyperspace but no insurance.
I like this idea more than the mixed up half finished and endless combat zones that exist now...

Further edit:

It depends on your definition of fun. I think combat in Elite Dangerous would be more fun if all ships had their use in combat/open mode against all other ships. Combat should take some time, but without turning it into SCB spamming. A good middle ground if you like to call it that way.

PS: Ship speed was probably not the exact right word. Maneuverability and the option to disengage form combat at will would be closer to what I meant. But that's an other discussion.

Ok yeah, I suppose there are one or two that break the manoeuvrability problem. But yeah, I suppose we both partly agree that there needs to be some changes

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

T… I think though during fighting CGs it'd encourage more PvP - ie the CG faction you chose within a CZ agrees to cover the cost as after all, you are fighting for their cause and not yours. …

That's something I'v thought about a few times. I would only cover the insurance of a PvP fight in a CZ. If an other CMDR destroys your ship you don't have to pay the insurance. If an NPC destroys your ship you have to pay. It destroys immersion, but it would allow players to learn how to PvP in a save/fun way. Something they can then use in open mode.

Or completely remove the insurance cost if destroyed by a CMDR and increase the cost of insurance if destroyed by NPCs or own stupidity. That way a lot of complaining about "grieving" would be stopped and one reason why players like to "grieve" would be removed. So much less complains on the forum, more fun for the pew pew fans, a more dangerous Solo experience and probably a few very annoyed players that don't share my view

 

[dayrth]

A decent skilled smaller ship pilot should be able to take out less skilled pilots in big ships

Why?

In navel warfare you would not try to engage a battleship or aircraft carrier with a frigate. No matter how awful the enemy captain was at his job. You might use the frigate to hunt a submarine. You might use it as part of a battle group. Then it would have a role in hunting the big boys.

Every ship in ED has its advantages and roles it is good at. Trying to make every ship compete with every other on all levels would not be a good thing (imho).