Improving external view

[jrivett]

[1] I really don't understand the 'immersion' objections to an external view. If it bothers you, don't use it. I mean, what about the game menu? Doesn't that kill immersion too?

[2] Although I don't PvP, I totally understand objections to external view based on possible advantage in combat. The easiest way to fix that is to make ships uncontrollable while in external view mode. This has the added bonus of freeing up the controls for other uses in external view mode.

[3] Now that we've freed up the controls for use with external view mode, remap them so that they work in a more natural way - more like the galaxy map, with zooming and spinning, and MUCH faster.

[4] Remove or expand the camera's limits.

[5] Keep the warning when entering external view mode. In fact, it would now make a bit more sense, since ALL of the ship controls will be completely inaccessible in external view mode. Currently, some of the ship controls are still accessible in external view mode.

Thanks!

 

[Pest]

Before bringing counter arguments before anyone has spoken them out is quite confusing. Can you first describe what your idea is?
There is an external view by using the debug camera. However, you don't have control over your ship during that mode. It's purely meant for taking pictures/videos. My guess is you want a 3-person view like in some car racing games. If this is the case, I think it would not be of great use. In a car game you have a flat 2D plane and the position of the camera is viewing the road ahead. In ED you have 3D space with all orientation options and the system must choose a camera position (e.g. behind and above) which will not be a good choice for all events that might occur. You would use the infos provided from the HUD as well.

 

[DHMeyer]

[1] I really don't understand the 'immersion' objections to an external view. If it bothers you, don't use it. I mean, what about the game menu? Doesn't that kill immersion too?

[2] Although I don't PvP, I totally understand objections to external view based on possible advantage in combat. The easiest way to fix that is to make ships uncontrollable while in external view mode. This has the added bonus of freeing up the controls for other uses in external view mode.

[3] Now that we've freed up the controls for use with external view mode, remap them so that they work in a more natural way - more like the galaxy map, with zooming and spinning, and MUCH faster.

[4] Remove or expand the camera's limits.

[5] Keep the warning when entering external view mode. In fact, it would now make a bit more sense, since ALL of the ship controls will be completely inaccessible in external view mode. Currently, some of the ship controls are still accessible in external view mode.

Thanks!

1. Me neither
2. Can't see "unfair" advantage in an option available to every player. Switching ship controls off wouldn't be the best idea, because at least now it's quicker to stop the ship by cutting engines than to close the external camera view and then stop the engines. It's not like you can do everything from the outside, so in my opinion current solution is fine. More of a problem is that external camera is rather slow to control, using a system similar to the current galaxy map, where you can freely rotate the view with the mouse could be more practical. But I guess we won't see that sort of external camera view improvement :/
3. I wouldn't mind the galaxy map loading and working faster, currently it's pretty sluggish to load (at least on my computer, which is i7, 16GB RAM, SSD and GTX 960M). I wouldn't make it accessible through external view though. I think this would be more confusing, now it sits in one place and it's fairly logical to look for it under some assigned key button or through the navigation panel.
4. I understand how it supports your point 3.). Removing limitations would in my opinion be too much, expanding them a bit wouldn't hurt.
5. Definitely yes.


I think there was a whole discussion about the external camera and controls way back and they decided to do it the way it is based on the players' feedback, so I wouldn't expect Frontier to open this can of worms again.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

[1] I really don't understand the 'immersion' objections to an external view. If it bothers you, don't use it. I mean, what about the game menu? Doesn't that kill immersion too?

Everyone else's complaint about immersion is about as substantial as your counter argument. "If you don't like it, opt out" is not a good argument to anything.

I don't take a lot of screenshots but I don't see why the current external view isn't good enough. I guess the zoom limits could be pushed out.

2. Can't see "unfair" advantage in an option available to every player.

You're taking a narrow minded approach to the issue. Some ships (say, ships with a crappy canopy) might benefit more than others from the feature. You can't say 'slap this on and give it to everyone can call it fair' unless everyone is exactly the same, or unless you want everyone to be exactly the same.

 

[DHMeyer]

Everyone else's complaint about immersion is about as substantial as your counter argument. "If you don't like it, opt out" is not a good argument to anything.

I don't take a lot of screenshots but I don't see why the current external view is good enough. I guess the zoom limits could be pushed out.

But it is a good argument and you've used it yourself on various occasions. What makes it a good argument though is that having freedom of choice is what Elite is about. For example, there are players who decide not to use docking computer on purpose. The option is there, the option can make the game easier / require less attention / adds some functionality to all the ships you'd like this functionality for, but you are free to not use it. "If you don't like it, don't use it" is a big part of this game design.

You're taking a narrow minded approach to the issue. Some ships (say, ships with a crappy canopy) might benefit more than others from the feature. You can't say 'slap this on and give it to everyone can call it fair' unless everyone is exactly the same, or unless you want everyone to be exactly the same.

That's a choice of preference for ship design as well, from the mechanics point of view the canopy is the same in every ship (i.e. you are as likely to have it cracked in Siddie as in Eagle or Adder or whatever. Presumably the difference depends on general armor of the ship and that's it). Most people will choose the ship based on their requirements when it comes to jump range, cargo capacity, speed, manoeuvrability, armor, shields and weaponry, canopy is more of a function of aesthetics and personal preference. You can slap this feature onto every ship without any problem. The ones who have better canopy, offering them better view, probably won't use the feature very often, especially in combat situations (it takes time to press the camera mode key and then confirmation, during which time you can't react to what's happening around, for example your opponent shooting at you) so they effectively are getting an advantage of not having to go through the debug camera / confirmation pop up.

This isn't really a function that would be extremely useful in combat (unless you could control your ship totally from the outside, which you can't and you won't be able to do in Elite), this is the kind of function that's useful for some manoeuvres, for using it for a brief moment to check the surroundings, to take some nice screenshots or to have a look at the system you're in whilst exploring (for example to look for in-system objects that don't show up on your system map - like when you have only Basic Exploration Scanner, you can still check if there are any additional astronomical objects within the system if you look outside for objects that are visibly moving).

Is it good enough as it is? Yes. Can it be made better? Yes. Can it improve gameplay choices? Yes
In my opinion it's worth adding, although I'm not too fussed about it.

 

[jrivett]

Before bringing counter arguments before anyone has spoken them out is quite confusing. Can you first describe what your idea is?

I'm sorry if my post confused you. I think it's very clear. The post is titled 'Improving external view'. In the post, I list several things I'd like to see changed in the current external view. I start off by stating my personal opinion on the immersion objection to external views, which is common throughout all discussions on this subject, both on this forum and elsewhere.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

But it is a good argument and you've used it yourself on various occasions. What makes it a good argument though is that having freedom of choice is what Elite is about. For example, there are players who decide not to use docking computer on purpose. The option is there, the option can make the game easier / require less attention / adds some functionality to all the ships you'd like this functionality for, but you are free to not use it. "If you don't like it, don't use it" is a big part of this game design.

The difference between a docking computer and the suggested is that the docking computer uses an internal slot. This is more substantial of a choice than simply 'opt in/opt out', so it can offer more substantial of a gameplay benefit.

That's a choice of preference for ship design as well

Are you just ignoring the context of the response? The quotes are there for a reason.

No, the current external view isn't really useful at all as far as gaining an advantage is concerned. However, it'd be foolish to dismiss any potential PvP advantages (context of the quoted) just because it's available to everyone. Just because it's available to everyone doesn't mean it's going to affect everyone the same way.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

The debug camera flying limitations are fine, however the camera controls and zoom range is not.
They're too slow, and don't move far away enough from your ship.

An idea I had a while back, requires alot of work, so probably won't get done, is to actually have a Remote Camera Limpet...

When you launch it, you get to control it, from its perspective. It can fly as far away as you need, and has a full range of photography doodahs so you can zoom, change focus, etc (not a photographer!).
It can primarily be used for selfies and screenshots.
But later be used for spy missions!
It should be recallable though, so you don't need to carry 300 of them on your deep space exploration trip. Lol
Or Synthesis of limpets would be handy.

Ideally, if you switch back to your ship, it should either return to your cargo hold, or hold it's position relative to your ship, so you can quickly adjust your ship for screenies.

But like I said not gonna happen..lol

 

[DHMeyer]

The difference between a docking computer and the suggested is that the docking computer uses an internal slot. This is more substantial of a choice than simply 'opt in/opt out', so it can offer more substantial of a gameplay benefit. The difference between the docking computer and external camera view is that the former can have some practical purpose and speed up docking for you (or allow you to go to the loo)


Are you just ignoring the context of the response? The quotes are there for a reason.

No, the current external view isn't really useful at all as far as gaining an advantage is concerned. However, it'd be foolish to dismiss any potential PvP advantages (context of the quoted) just because it's available to everyone. Just because it's available to everyone doesn't mean it's going to affect everyone the same way.

Opting-out applies to many features of Elite, docking computer is one of the examples. It being a module doesn't change players' option to opt out in any way. Any ship can have it, it costs nothing (because 4k or 5k credits or whatever it costs, is nothing). You have to sacrifice one internal compartment, which doesn't change the basic functionality of the ship (you can still trade for example and if you're short on compartments to fit everything you want inside your ship, no ship in the game has enough internal compartments to allow you for carrying every available module type anyway). The difference between the docking computer and external camera view is that the former can have some practical purpose and speed up docking for you (or allow you to go to the loo). Opting out does also allow players not to use features which break their immersion, but I see no reason why a person who's a bit less concerned about it, shouldn't be able to use such features.

External view doesn't offer any real gameplay benefit or advantage. Unless it's implemented in a way that does allow you for retaining full control of the ship. It is currently not implemented in this way and it is also not a solution the OP suggests.

That I can look at my ship from the outside? Wow, cool. And that's it. And I can do this whilst outfitting as well, so not much of an excitement when it comes to using external view camera. Novelty wears off quickly. Does it offer me any benefit in combat? Absolutely not. Firstly, when I'm switching to external view, the opponent is doing their thing (i.e. is shooting at me) and within that second of two it takes, they have already changed their position. And I don't even know where they are, until they decide to parade themselves before my eyes (i.e. camera is pointing at a right place at a right time). Then I will see them for a second and external view camera is not fast enough to allow you prolonged tracking of fast moving enemy. But hey, I get the significant advantage of seeing their bullets or lasers hitting the hull of my ship. If I was able to move the external view camera quicker, I would be able to track their movement, yes. But the second I switch back to the cockpit view, they are already somewhere else, so it makes no difference I saw them a moment ago. I can admire their paint job and decide it's cool (or not). End of advantage

I don't use the external view, switched to it probably 3 times to take a screenshot. I have the option of knowing where the opponents are just looking at the radar. Much quicker and much more effective. I think that radar gives me an unfair advantage, Frontier should remove it whatsoever then. As a matter of fact, if you're using turreted weapons, you don't really have much of a reason to even raise your eyes above the dashboard of your ship. So here's the extreme advantage of being able to look at the surroundings whilst in combat. For somebody playing with VR perhaps the canopy design would matter, for everybody else it only matters where your opponent is and how to get them in your crosshairs. Actually, let's ban the VR users, they are able to look around too quickly, thus getting an unfair advantage over players without VR kit.

OP doesn't suggest any truly revolutionary changes to the external view camera. Yes, probably it would be easier to follow the opponent's movements, but so what if you can't shoot at them? The moment you switch back to cockpit view to shoot at them, they are already elsewhere and you still have to use your dashboard / canopy field of view to locate them.
What they suggest would make it easier / more natural to use for purposes like:
1. Looking how pretty your ship is when in space or on the landing pad. Mine is a real beauty, no other ship ingame gets even close to looking that sexy.
2. Being able to take an interesting screenshot a bit quicker. Can't see how someone having a nice wallpaper for their computer puts gameplay experience of other players at risk. Perhaps other players would feel more miserable without that particular wallpaper and this affects their ingame performance, I don't know. It's the matter for their therapist and none of my business.
3. See your surroundings when somewhere in space, for example to evaluate your progress through the planetary ring whilst mining. Since that would be available to every miner out there equally, I doubt one person would blast the rocks any quicker than any other person.
4. Get a better sense of directions. Useful for new players on their first flights.

The change suggested would make the external view camera easier to use, but for activities that have nothing to do with combat (because of the reasons mentioned above). It is usable now, for sure, but making it more intuitive would be a huge help for the new players in their process of learning the game. I think it's a good thing, not hurting anyone in any way.
Personally I have no use for external view camera, in current form or with suggested improvements. I don't have to actually see the objects around to have a sense of their location, what I see through the crappiest canopy in front of me is good enough. But I can respect the fact that for some people it would make the learning curve less steep. I had the opportunity to observe one player yesterday struggling on his first day playing Elite to find his way in space. Had there be an option for him to switch to external view and have a quick look around, that experience would be much less daunting for him. So especially in the interest of new players I would wholeheartedly support suggested changes to the external camera view functionality.

 

[DHMeyer]

The debug camera flying limitations are fine, however the camera controls and zoom range is not.
They're too slow, and don't move far away enough from your ship.

An idea I had a while back, requires alot of work, so probably won't get done, is to actually have a Remote Camera Limpet...

When you launch it, you get to control it, from its perspective. It can fly as far away as you need, and has a full range of photography doodahs so you can zoom, change focus, etc (not a photographer!).
It can primarily be used for selfies and screenshots.
But later be used for spy missions!
It should be recallable though, so you don't need to carry 300 of them on your deep space exploration trip. Lol
Or Synthesis of limpets would be handy.

Ideally, if you switch back to your ship, it should either return to your cargo hold, or hold it's position relative to your ship, so you can quickly adjust your ship for screenies.

But like I said not gonna happen..lol

The devs were suggesting something like that in the past, not sure what happened with that idea. But yes, this would be an interesting module to have.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

You need to clean up your quote.

External view doesn't offer any real gameplay benefit or advantage. Unless it's implemented in a way that does allow you for retaining full control of the ship. It is currently not implemented in this way and it is also not a solution the OP suggests.

Congratulations, you have successfully restated OP's bullet #2 in your own words.

Overall, the context of your post is a lot of words that have little or nothing to do with my argument. Since the content of your post suggests you struggle with this, let's take a moment to consider the context of the argument:

OP: I don't get immersion arguments against external cameras.  If you don't like it, opt out.  
Me: Immersion arguments are weak, but so are opt out arguments.  
You: WE HAVE DOCKING COMPUTERS AND THIS IS WHAT ED IS ALL ABOUT.

Let me correct you. ED is not all about choices like opt in/opt out. ED is about making meaningful choices. The choice "Is that docking computer worth 2t of cargo?" is pretty meaningful to a sidewinder who can only carry six. The choice "beam or cannon?" is a meaningful choice. The choice "shield or cargo?" is a meaningful choice.

Opt in/out on the other hand, as implied by the OP in bullet #1 and I in my post responding to bullet #1, is not a meaningful choice. It's about as meaningful as trying to decide between putting your trade or explorer decal on your nose. Just a little button you can tick.

 

[DHMeyer]

You need to clean up your quote.

Congratulations, you have successfully restated OP's bullet #2 in your own words.

Overall, the context of your post is a lot of words that have little or nothing to do with my argument. Since the content of your post suggests you struggle with this, let's take a moment to consider the context of the argument:

OP: I don't get immersion arguments against external cameras.  If you don't like it, opt out.  
Me: Immersion arguments are weak, but so are opt out arguments.  
You: WE HAVE DOCKING COMPUTERS AND THIS IS WHAT ED IS ALL ABOUT.

Let me correct you. ED is not all about choices like opt in/opt out. ED is about making meaningful choices. The choice "Is that docking computer worth 2t of cargo?" is pretty meaningful to a sidewinder who can only carry six. The choice "beam or cannon?" is a meaningful choice. The choice "shield or cargo?" is a meaningful choice.

Opt in/out on the other hand, as implied by the OP in bullet #1 and I in my post responding to bullet #1, is not a meaningful choice. It's about as meaningful as trying to decide between putting your trade or explorer decal on your nose. Just a little button you can tick.

Overall, the content of your posts is lots of words which have nothing to do with anything except your sense of self-importance.

As for the content of my previous posts it has a lot to do with your argument. Sorry, but I'm not responsible for explaining and translating it to you if you have problems with grasping it. I'm not your teacher, I'm not your therapist, I'm not paid for that, I don't care whether you understand what people say to you or not. You'll have to cope on your own somehow. I'm sure you'll manage in the end.

As for the docking computer, if you are so worried it's a separate module, I'll give you another example: orbital lines. A function of the game that is not a module, allows for better orientation in space and can be used as an aid in navigation. Switched on and off, depending on your wish. Every player has this option, every player has the option to benefit from it and every player can decide not to use it as it breaks the immersion. Not part of the ship's HUD.
Another example: mouse pointer. Helps to aim your ship more precisely than the standard middle of the screen target circle. You can switch it on and off. Available to every player. Also has a potential of breaking immersion. Not part of the ship's HUD.

Of course, advantage of the mentioned is negligible, if any, so I will give you another example of a thing advantage of which is negligible or none:

Another example: external camera view. Helps people to get better idea about their ship's position in space in relation to the surrounding. You can switch it on and off, however it has a delay for confirmation message. Has no practical combat use. Also has the potential of breaking immersion.

And the bottom line is that it doesn't affect your personal gameplay in any way. Nor mine. Nor any other person's who doesn't use it for anything than taking screenshots. So again, I would be happy to see external view camera being more responsible and more intuitional to use for people who find it helpful in finding their way around the game.
Over and out.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

Overall, the content of your posts is lots of words which have nothing to do with anything except your sense of self-importance.

This is cute, but has no weight in an argument.

And the bottom line is that it doesn't affect your personal gameplay in any way.

Based on this, it's clear you have once again completely disregarded the context of the argument. Point #1 was not referring to the current external cameras, and I'm not either.

 

[jrivett]

2. Can't see "unfair" advantage in an option available to every player.

No, not actually unfair (and I never said that). I'm just saying that I understand the objections, because - assuming ships were fully controllable in external view mode - someone using the external view might have an edge over someone who wasn't, and players would need to change their play styles or suffer from this disadvantage. Purely hypothetical of course.

Switching ship controls off wouldn't be the best idea, because at least now it's quicker to stop the ship by cutting engines than to close the external camera view and then stop the engines.

I think it makes more sense to disable ship controls completely, as this would make it very clear that you are in a view-only mode and that the ship is in no way controllable in that mode. Less confusing, and more consistent.

More of a problem is that external camera is rather slow to control, using a system similar to the current galaxy map, where you can freely rotate the view with the mouse could be more practical.

Exactly. Like I said in point 3.

3. I wouldn't mind the galaxy map loading and working faster... [snip] I wouldn't make it accessible through external view though.

I apparently expressed myself poorly. In point 3 I was suggesting that the external view controls work similarly to the controls for the galaxy map. Because the galaxy map interface, in my opinion, is excellent. If the external view used those controls, it would be MUCH more useful.

4. I understand how it supports your point 3.). Removing limitations would in my opinion be too much, expanding them a bit wouldn't hurt.

Sure, there's room for compromise. Infinite zoom might be too much, but the current limit is just awful.

I think there was a whole discussion about the external camera and controls way back and they decided to do it the way it is based on the players' feedback, so I wouldn't expect Frontier to open this can of worms again.

I hope you're wrong about that. And here's why: assuming we had access to a really useful external view, one that doesn't provide any advantage in combat, and that can be disabled like orbit lines for people who feel that it hurts immersion, then we would have what amounts to one of the best tools for promoting Elite Dangerous.

If someone asks me what I'm playing, I want to be able to show them something spectacular. And ED is spectacular, but the current external view controls present an obstacle to accessing that spectacularity (probably not a real word, but I like it). To me, objecting to a useful (for the purpose of promotion and demonstration) external view seems counter-productive. Online games like ED disappear when people lose interest. I don't know about the rest of you, but I want to be able to play this game for a few years at least.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

I apparently expressed myself poorly.

No. You didn't. I have no idea what the deficiency is but you expressed yourself just fine.

 

[DHMeyer]

No, not actually unfair (and I never said that). I'm just saying that I understand the objections, because - assuming ships were fully controllable in external view mode - someone using the external view might have an edge over someone who wasn't, and players would need to change their play styles or suffer from this disadvantage. Purely hypothetical of course.

I think it makes more sense to disable ship controls completely, as this would make it very clear that you are in a view-only mode and that the ship is in no way controllable in that mode. Less confusing, and more consistent.

Exactly. Like I said in point 3.

I apparently expressed myself poorly. In point 3 I was suggesting that the external view controls work similarly to the controls for the galaxy map. Because the galaxy map interface, in my opinion, is excellent. If the external view used those controls, it would be MUCH more useful.

Sure, there's room for compromise. Infinite zoom might be too much, but the current limit is just awful.

Completely agree.
Yes, I thought you meant giving players access to the galaxy map through zooming away from their ship. And yes, I think having external view camera behave in a similar way the current galaxy map behaves would be pretty good. Not sure with a joystick, somehow I never tried using that with the galaxy map, will probably see if it's even possible or usable later today.

I hope you're wrong about that. And here's why: assuming we had access to a really useful external view, one that doesn't provide any advantage in combat, and that can be disabled like orbit lines for people who feel that it hurts immersion, then we would have what amounts to one of the best tools for promoting Elite Dangerous.

If someone asks me what I'm playing, I want to be able to show them something spectacular. And ED is spectacular, but the current external view controls present an obstacle to accessing that spectacularity (probably not a real word, but I like it). To me, objecting to a useful (for the purpose of promotion and demonstration) external view seems counter-productive. Online games like ED disappear when people lose interest. I don't know about the rest of you, but I want to be able to play this game for a few years at least.

I too would like to see this game to be successful and grow for the next few years. It actually has the potential to become something to last for quite a while. The foundations are really good, but the walls are still wobbly and the roof is leaking. We'll see how they patch it all up, maybe Frontier will be able to strengthen this constructions before it gets really windy and rainy (I'm thinking about Star Citizen and No Man's Sky here). So yes, I agree with your point about marketing value of player made videos, screenshots etc. To me the most useful outcome of such a functionality though would be the fact that it can be a real help to new players. Which is also important, as the players who have problems breaking the initial barriers and the controls learning curve are not going to stay around long enough to buy the expansion packs and thus support continuous development of the game. I don't see how making things cumbersome and illogical in bits that don't affect overall gameplay difficulty (such as external camera view) is helping the longevity of ED and keeping it ahead of the competition.

 

[jrivett]

No. You didn't. I have no idea what the deficiency is but you expressed yourself just fine.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'm never completely sure, and I get paid to write.