In a CZ friendly fire causes everybody to shoot you

[sqzbox1]

Just wondered what others might think of this particular mechanic. In a CZ if you shoot a friendly, accidentally of course, then everybody turns red and you are not welcome anymore. Seems a little harsh given that this is a combat zone, right?

I get that we shouldn't shoot our compatriots, and I'm probably a terrible pilot and even worse person, and should git gud, blah, blah - but really - what do people think? Should we suggest a change? Because it seems to me that if you DO make that mistake then the battle is effectively over. You have to leave - no choice really - because for a starter you can't tell friends from foes anymore because everybody is red, and your friends are going to shoot you as well. But this is a CZ - not a Res - and fecal matter occurs.

Sure, you can leave, fly out 1MM and then back in a start a whole new battle from scratch, but I'm trying to think of immersion and all that good stuff. Would it really work that way? It seems to me that if you do shoot your own guys then they are going to be rather annoyed, but they aren't going to make the entire field turn against you, right there. In a Res, different story and I'm comfortable with they way it works there. But in a CZ - really?

How about we suggest that a CZ behaves differently in this regard. Perhaps a terse comms message or a combat fine (payable against bonds or something simple like that, or a percent reduction perhaps). Thoughts?

 

[Rubbernuke]

New CZs should behave like the current old Powerplay combat expansions. If you shoot someone you get a warning, and if they die you get a penalty (in this case merits are deducted).

 

[Eliza]

You get a warning, if you hit a "Green One". immedialty seize fire, otherwise you will be haunted. Leave the CZ and jump in again.

 

[sqzbox1]

Not seen any warnings - just everybody suddenly turns red so I am surmising that I have hit a green. Of course you can leave the CZ and start a new one. But that isn't my point - did you even read my OP?

 

[Shiro Akai]

Just wondered what others might think of this particular mechanic.

Stupid BEYOND recognition. Immediate response and totally unrealistic. It feels like Manchester United fans are in a massive brawl with Arsenal fans (forgive me is I messed it up - not a fan of that sport). You enter the area and poke one random guy. Now BOTH factions say: all right boys, cease fire and let's mutilate that fellow for his interruption so we can continue killing each other.


For this is how it looks like. I, as a total combat noob went to a CZ, didn't pick a side and started shooting at some target. Three shots later I was facing rebuy as WHOLE CZ turned on me. Even ships that were fighting each other decided to stop and chase after me. Ok, my bad for not knowing that I have to choose a side. But everyone turning on me in an instant is pure bowine biowaste.

Simple fix: CZs are no rules zone. You enter on your responsibility. No crime reports, no fines for friendly fire, no bounties. Everyone is CZ is a fair game. And for the love of what's holly in this universe - make stop to that idiotic mechanic where everyone turn on you. 70 ships busy fighting but once you enter they all come on you.

 

[Aashenfox]

Nowadays friendly fire is (cleverly) tied to what you are targeting. If you have a friendly targeted, one multicannon round is enough to start a fight (and turn the whole instance red), whereas if you hit a ship that you are not targeting, it takes a hell of a volley of hits to turn them red.

I haven't had a single friendly fire incident since this change was made (I wanna say 3.1?). So more than being careful with your fire, it's more important to be careful what you're targeting.

 

[sqzbox1]

Mm - that's an interesting take. I'm pretty sure I am only targetting reds but now I'll take particular note after I have set a target to see if the faction checks out. I wonder if it is possible for one of my side to be showing red somehow? I've always targetted red and not checked the affiliation before, assuming that reds are always the opposite side. Thanks.

 

[Aashenfox]

Mm - that's an interesting take. I'm pretty sure I am only targetting reds but now I'll take particular note after I have set a target to see if the faction checks out. I wonder if it is possible for one of my side to be showing red somehow? I've always targetted red and not checked the affiliation before, assuming that reds are always the opposite side. Thanks.

Your assumptions are all correct. It does happen, but it's rare, that the whole instance will turn hostile for no reason. So there's that.

All I was really pointing out was the huge difference in the amount of damage you have to do to turn a targeted vs non-targeted friendly hostile. If you indeed did not target a friendly by accident (I believe you if you say so ), it would have taken a sustained volley (or hits from particularly heavy weapons such as large PAs or bigger) to make a non-targeted friendly think you were out to get him.

 

[MottiKhan]

It's been reported that friendlies will sometimes start firing on each other for no apparent reason. I and others have seen a single friendly turn red without cause, but it won't attack you. It can be accidentally targeted though, and if you don't read the faction, you could fire on it thinking it was the enemy. If you do, I can see all of the greens going after you in that case.

Some have reported all greens going red in a CZ without reason. (I haven't personally seen that, but plenty of people have reported it). This might or might not be related to the one green turning red.

 

[Aashenfox]

It's been reported that friendlies will sometimes start firing on each other for no apparent reason. I and others have seen a single friendly turn red without cause, but it won't attack you. It can be accidentally targeted though, and if you don't read the faction, you could fire on it thinking it was the enemy. If you do, I can see all of the greens going after you in that case.

Some have reported all greens going red in a CZ without reason. (I haven't personally seen that, but plenty of people have reported it). This might or might not be related to the one green turning red.

If we call the first issue you mentioned (single friendly ships turning red for no reason), issue A, and the fact that a whole instance can turn against you for no apparent reason (I have seen this personally), issue B, I might suggest that failing to realise that you were experiencing issue A (and opening fire on a red friendly), would be a very good candidate for the cause for issue B. I admit it's possible that this is what has happened to me, as I wasn't aware of issue A, only issue B.

Good insight Motti, cheers.

P.S. It suddenly occurs to me that I have seen friendlies attacking each other AFTER the enemy retreats, seen it several times. Just thought they were sparring, getting ready for the next CZ.

 

[aRJay]

It's been reported that friendlies will sometimes start firing on each other for no apparent reason. I and others have seen a single friendly turn red without cause, but it won't attack you. It can be accidentally targeted though, and if you don't read the faction, you could fire on it thinking it was the enemy. If you do, I can see all of the greens going after you in that case.

Some have reported all greens going red in a CZ without reason. (I haven't personally seen that, but plenty of people have reported it). This might or might not be related to the one green turning red.

This has happened to me enough times that I check the faction after clicking target next hostile. I have seen multiple ships change from green to red but not quite all unless I was firing. As I am a turret user the switching is very worrying for me.

Someone said there are no rules in a CZ because it is a war, this isn't true there are rules and laws that apply in CZs and in wars it is just that they are different.

 

[Hossi]

Two remarks from me for that:
- You can finish the CZ even after everyone turned hostile. Sure, its not getting easier, but it works. Progress is moving as usual, you just don't get Combat-Bonds anymore.
- When it happens to me its not because I'm a little trigger happy, its because one of the hostiles (red-ones) is an ally. I'm not quite sure how this happens but every now and then there are a few of your allies that turn hostile, and if I 'select next hostile' I might get one of these. I actually wrote a small AHK script to verify the target faction in a CZ. If you return fire on one of these (yes they attack me), then everyone gets hostile imediatly.

 

[dm06]

From my experience what happens when allied ship crosses your fire line (I assume that this is the case and you do not target allied ships and do not pull the trigger intentionally):
- there's a threshold after which allied ships start thinking you are an enemy
- for sure I can pew pew several times and they still remain allied, this means the threshold has not been crossed yet
- I can pew pew ally with turret weapons longer, at the same time shooting allied ships with fixed weapons makes them hostile faster
- it depends on damage, it is always possible to kill weak allied ship (think about Eagle without shields and 1% of hull)
- low level ncp crew in SLF increases chances to shoot allied ships
- seems that allied ship can get your npc crew's (SLF in defend mode) aggro because of accidental shot, in this case it will shoot back making you hostile
- some weapons (like PA) travels own way and eventually can affect allied ships

I believe though that CZ is a playing ground with it's own rules to play successfully you need to adapt.

 

[Jakester13]

Not sure if this has been fixed, but ship-launched fighters' colours were either orange or red in CZs regardless of which faction and therefore easily mistakenly targeted.

 

[Vasious]

Not seen any warnings - just everybody suddenly turns red so I am surmising that I have hit a green. Of course you can leave the CZ and start a new one. But that isn't my point - did you even read my OP?

You do get warnings
I wonder if missing the warnings and hitting your own side is connected

 

[Kaocraft]

Unless there's been a change recently, a few stray shots won't turn everyone against you. It takes a fair bit of pounding away on a friendly target before everyone goes hostile. Which seems realistic enough for me.

 

[Jmanis]

Yeah, having done it a lot recently, it takes a fair amount of pounding to get everyone hostile.

I'm ok with it, as it doesn't wreck the CZ; you can still happily finish it. Worst-case I had was getting hostile 50% through a High CZ

The only problems I have are ones around cognitive dissonance... when the whole CZ turns hostile, you no longer earn bonds... but you'll get voiceover congratulations from the NPC fighters for your kills and efforts still. If it's gonna stay like that, you should still get bonds for appropriate-faction kills... or you should stop getting all rewards, and compliments over the radio.

Just a video to show it in action.

[video=youtube_share;vTdEkB3P2uk]https://youtu.be/vTdEkB3P2uk[/video]

 

[sqzbox1]

OK - I think I have it sussed now. I watched very carefully after earlier discussion. I checked each and every target and ensured I was not hitting friendlies - actually, I'm pretty good at trigger control and it is something that rarely happens anymore - only when the weird really quick dudes flash in and out so quickly I don't get a chance to react. So - I got PA'd by somebody I was not working on at that moment - quickly checked the scanner and saw the other flashing red icon. Targetted him immediately and let it rip. Then boom everybody turned red. Checked the faction and sure enough he is from the friendly faction.

I think what happens is this - I get hit by friendly fire and my stupid ship then considers him a target and turns him red - immediately. Since he is now a non-friendly, when I shoot him it is not considered friendly fire and there are no warnings. But since I am shooting him the game switches all his brethren to unfriendly now as happens in Res and such.

The bug - yes I think it is a bug - is that friendly fire on me doesn't behave in the same way as friendly fire I inflict on others. If friendly fire on me was as "forgiving" as mine is on others then intercepting one PA shot when I am at full shields and strength would not cause the other guy to be automatically seen as unfriendly - the result of which is that when I legitimately shoot a red then the game is still seeing him as friemdly faction and now I'm the guilty party. It's inconsistent in behaviour in this regard.

 

[Aashenfox]

OK - I think I have it sussed now. I watched very carefully after earlier discussion. I checked each and every target and ensured I was not hitting friendlies - actually, I'm pretty good at trigger control and it is something that rarely happens anymore - only when the weird really quick dudes flash in and out so quickly I don't get a chance to react. So - I got PA'd by somebody I was not working on at that moment - quickly checked the scanner and saw the other flashing red icon. Targetted him immediately and let it rip. Then boom everybody turned red. Checked the faction and sure enough he is from the friendly faction.

I think what happens is this - I get hit by friendly fire and my stupid ship then considers him a target and turns him red - immediately. Since he is now a non-friendly, when I shoot him it is not considered friendly fire and there are no warnings. But since I am shooting him the game switches all his brethren to unfriendly now as happens in Res and such.

The bug - yes I think it is a bug - is that friendly fire on me doesn't behave in the same way as friendly fire I inflict on others. If friendly fire on me was as "forgiving" as mine is on others then intercepting one PA shot when I am at full shields and strength would not cause the other guy to be automatically seen as unfriendly - the result of which is that when I legitimately shoot a red then the game is still seeing him as friemdly faction and now I'm the guilty party. It's inconsistent in behaviour in this regard.

Excellent observations, I concur. The threshold of damage hitting us is lower than the threshold of us hitting them, makes perfect sense and warrants a bug report.

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

Yeah, having done it a lot recently, it takes a fair amount of pounding to get everyone hostile.

I'm ok with it, as it doesn't wreck the CZ; you can still happily finish it. Worst-case I had was getting hostile 50% through a High CZ

The only problems I have are ones around cognitive dissonance... when the whole CZ turns hostile, you no longer earn bonds... but you'll get voiceover congratulations from the NPC fighters for your kills and efforts still. If it's gonna stay like that, you should still get bonds for appropriate-faction kills... or you should stop getting all rewards, and compliments over the radio.

Just a video to show it in action.

don't forget to switch your video from "private" to "not listed"