Inaccessible permit-locked systems and the BGS

[Dagwit]

I've been hoovering up system permits recently. Several permit-locked systems are inaccessible, and I've seen it speculated that one possible reason for this is that the permit-issuing faction only has a presence in the locked system, making it impossible for players to obtain missions that would allow them to rank up and gain the permit.

I know nothing about the BGS, so I'd like to ask those who do: if players who are skilled in BGS manipulation were to mount an attack on other factions in the locked systems - factions which do have an outside presence - could this improve the relative standing of a faction only present in the locked system to the point where it expands outside the system?

Which would then allow players to see if it does indeed issue permits, and if so obtain them.

But as I say, I have no idea if this is even possible.

 

[babelfisch]

I believe it would only reduce influence in the system you are working against the faction, their presence and influence in the permit locked system would be unaffected. I don't know anything about the BGS though...

 

[MottiKhan]

Unfortunately, no. You can put other factions into undesirable global states, but only actions by Commanders can change influence in the target system. Someone with a permit would have to go in, but if nobody has a permit, it can only be opened up by the hand of god. (FD)

 

[schmicknick]

There maybe would have been a slight chance to do something like put all the other factions into lockdown or something and simply allow the permit controlling faction to gain influence over time, but this is hinged on the faction-wide effects of the BGS which is going away with the update... with the new faction status effects being local to each system, it looks even more impossible.

 

[Factabulous]

Plus - most of the inaccessible permit locked systems have no population....

 

[Lucius-Darcia]

I've been hoovering up system permits recently. Several permit-locked systems are inaccessible, and I've seen it speculated that one possible reason for this is that the permit-issuing faction only has a presence in the locked system, making it impossible for players to obtain missions that would allow them to rank up and gain the permit.

I know nothing about the BGS, so I'd like to ask those who do: if players who are skilled in BGS manipulation were to mount an attack on other factions in the locked systems - factions which do have an outside presence - could this improve the relative standing of a faction only present in the locked system to the point where it expands outside the system?

Which would then allow players to see if it does indeed issue permits, and if so obtain them.

But as I say, I have no idea if this is even possible.

Nope, no player traffic in locked system means no player caused influence changes. Also no expansions and such from there. NPC's don't change BGS.
These locked systems have the very same influence since day 1 and it will never change, regardless which state the factions enter through system external player actions, except Frontier is applying some Dev-Magic here.

 

[DNA-Decay]

Good question though.





The one-state rule does allow a bunch of strategic problem solvers similar to what you are thinking.
I’ll be very sad to see that rule go away.
But your main misunderstanding is possibly that the BGS moves because of “NPC trading” or something. If there was a bit of background “noise” in the BGS you could potentially do what you are suggesting. But the BGS only changes by CMDR actions.

 

[Siobhan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't external player activity cause such a thing to happen in VMS last year, with the Sublime Order forced out of all their other systems? Or at least lost control of all bases? Maybe I'm miss-remembering.

 

[FrogsFriend]

Were any of them accessible in the past at some point? If so there could be Cmdrs out there somewhere with the permit, who could be persuaded to go in and fix them. Otherwise I think it's down to the hand of FD... or perhaps a playergroup suggested CG to 'expand' them out into a another system???

 

[Deleted member 38366]

Now if only....

Spoiler

...CMDRs could force a mis-jump, ending up in the System (technically) with a bit of luck and skill, just several hundred kLs or even a few Million Ls from the sun.

Carrying a label "Outlaw" (in permit-locked System without a permit), they'd have to smuggle themselves in and out very carefully.
But at least they'd have a chance to investigate and affect such Systems, albeit (until a permit is earned) only with alot of effort and dedication.

 

[Dagwit]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't external player activity cause such a thing to happen in VMS last year, with the Sublime Order forced out of all their other systems? Or at least lost control of all bases? Maybe I'm miss-remembering.

You can certainly still get the permit; I know this because I picked one up a few weeks ago.

The Sublime Order is currently in six systems, including van Maanen's Star.

However they no longer control their home system; that's now controlled by the Hutton Orbital Truckers Co-Operative.

Could that takeover be what you're remembering?

Thanks to all who replied. I'd love to know if there's some actual reason for the systems being inaccessible, or if whoever was charged with assigning permits to factions simply forgot to check that all the factions given permits had a presence in more than one system. But I won't be holding my breath waiting to find out.

 

[DNA-Decay]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't external player activity cause such a thing to happen in VMS last year, with the Sublime Order forced out of all their other systems? Or at least lost control of all bases? Maybe I'm miss-remembering.

So like retreat the faction from everywhere except the permit system so you can’t get the permit anymore?

That would be an interesting project. Kinda the opposite of what Limoncello Lizard does with that BGS project to get all the Rares available again.
Seems a big task. The sublime order have a fairly wide presence and rule a lot of stations. I don’t really see a benefit to anyone except the Hutton Truckers are in van Maanen’s Star, so it would be like raising the drawbridge behind themselves. Do you remember when this project was being discussed? Either it failed or it’s very long term.

 

[Sapyx]

We simply don't know why certain systems are permit-locked.

To the best of my knowledge, there are no verifiably known systems in the situation the OP describes. And FD seem to have put in place a policy to ensure it doesn't happen. I seem to recall that when the Tiliala permit-holders were kicked out of their last system, FD gave them an "exile" megaship in a new system.

So any permit-locked systems currently without any known access are presumably intended to be locked out for all players at the moment. Or FD simply don't care that they've created unobtainable permits; since many people have complained about the inability to obtain these permits before, it's not as if FD don't know about them. As others have stated, most of these systems are uninhabited, but some are apparently not:

4 Sextantis
CD-44 1695
HIP 22460
HIP 54530
Mbooni
Mingfu

Curiously, EDSM reports 4 historic visitors to Mbooni, the first being in 2015, so either that's a relatively new permit-lock or somebody out there has attained a Mbooni permit and isn't telling anyone how they got it. HIP 22460 reports 42 prior visitors; it seems to be "populated" by the P.R.E.-owned megaship "Overlook" and was apparently uninhabited and unlocked before the megaship arrived there. The other four in the above list all report zero visitors, so no-one who's ever used EDSM owns one of their permits.

There are a couple of other anomalous systems, like LFT 509 which is permit-locked and has zero population but is listed as "Federation" under Allegiance.

 

[Sapyx]

There is of course a major drawback to any player group considering creating a "private star system" for themselves by forcing the permit-issuing faction in a system where they are present to Retreat from all other star systems: that player group could never recruit any more new members, or have one of their players delete their savegame, because that player would then be forever locked out of their own group's star system.

The other issue is, of course, that the player group does not and cannot directly control permit issue. They have no power to revoke old permits. All of the obtainable permits have thousands of players owning that permit by now. So while a permit-isolated system might be isolated from attack by new players (and old players who never bothered obtaining that particular permit), old players who obtained that permit will still hold that permit and can work to undermine the player group's efforts.

Look at what happened to the Black Fleet in Tiliala.

After their group expanded into Tiliala and gained control of it, they worked hard to get the permit-issuing faction in Tiliala kicked out of every other star system they were present in. They succeeded, and persuaded FD to give their faction joint permit-issuing rights. But other owners of the Tiliala permit seem to have been outraged by the Black Fleet's actions. So outraged, that they ganged up on the Black Fleet in Tiliala, and kicked them out of the Tiliala system. The Conservatives of Tiliala are now present in six star systems and control three of them; the Black Fleet are only present in three, and in control of none. I do not know if the Black Fleet's permit-issuing status has been revoked as a result of this reversal.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Having spent some time pondering this very same puzzle, I can say this:

It IS possible to raise your standings with factions locked into locked systems. It is painfully slow, tedious, and I don't think I've gotten above Friendly yet, but there is at least one way to gain standing with locked-away factions.

Unfortunately, unless they send a permit by Quantum Entanglement Radio, I'm not sure how you'd actually get your hands on such a permit.

Allied Status with cohabitating factions has not produced any permits, though the cohabitants also control no stations. Unsure if it would be possible to trigger a resident faction into Expansion by raising standings from the outside or not, as I said, it's amazingly, glacially slow to do.

 

[Factabulous]

Having spent some time pondering this very same puzzle, I can say this:

It IS possible to raise your standings with factions locked into locked systems. It is painfully slow, tedious, and I don't think I've gotten above Friendly yet, but there is at least one way to gain standing with locked-away factions.

Unfortunately, unless they send a permit by Quantum Entanglement Radio, I'm not sure how you'd actually get your hands on such a permit.

Allied Status with cohabitating factions has not produced any permits, though the cohabitants also control no stations. Unsure if it would be possible to trigger a resident faction into Expansion by raising standings from the outside or not, as I said, it's amazingly, glacially slow to do.

Ah, a post so bereft of information and full of mysticisms - have you also found raxxla?

 

[Stamford Rider]

Ah, a post so bereft of information and full of mysticisms - have you also found raxxla?

I suspect it's against his religion.

 

[Siobhan]

Ah, a post so bereft of information and full of mysticisms - have you also found raxxla?

I suspect it's against his religion.

I have a spare in the fridge... I'll leave it in the 4th locker at pad 7 on Hutton Orbital, it's the blue one marked "reserved for Anaconda collections" in bright pink crayon.

 

[Lucius-Darcia]

Having spent some time pondering this very same puzzle, I can say this:

It IS possible to raise your standings with factions locked into locked systems. It is painfully slow, tedious, and I don't think I've gotten above Friendly yet, but there is at least one way to gain standing with locked-away factions.

Unfortunately, unless they send a permit by Quantum Entanglement Radio, I'm not sure how you'd actually get your hands on such a permit.

Allied Status with cohabitating factions has not produced any permits, though the cohabitants also control no stations. Unsure if it would be possible to trigger a resident faction into Expansion by raising standings from the outside or not, as I said, it's amazingly, glacially slow to do.

Yeah...bountyhunting with KWS can give you random faction bountys. Most from closer systems ao you could do that close to the system you can't get in and still become allied with the permit issuing faction.
But there is still the problem of the permit mission you cannot get since they are not present at any reachable starport

 

[Morbad]

So what currently unobtainable permits were formerly obtainable?

The only one I can think of that I cannot get that some others have is Mingfu...