Insurance costs for an online model!

[TannakaObi]

I think the Insurance costs are too high for an online game. Unless you have tens of millions you can lose everything with one or two deaths. This is the route cause of most of the pirate/trader negative debates.

I can see why it's good in the other Elite games, but once the decision to go online was made this should have been changed.

If the insurance cost was lower and more of a token cost the effects would be:

Traders would be happier, if they were pirated (by players) then they would only really have the cargo to lose. This would allow them to fight off Pirates more. In turn pirates would need more skill in the use of their tools.

Pirates would be happier, it would mean more when a job is successful and less players would vanish into the logoff void. It would also make the pirating tools more worthwhile and enjoyable.

Bounty Hunters would be happy, as the risk would be less and the gain would be more worthwhile. This would also have a knock-on effect as Pirates would have to think about bounties more. I think if it was also impossible to pay off a bounty for 24 hours after a fresh kill then this would also add to that.

Not great for explorers, however it would be slightly less of a blow if one died having pages of exploration data to hand in.

I admit that this makes the game slightly less 'real' and 'immersive' however small sacrifices should be made to make online play more fun. Combat would improve across the galaxy and more people would be inclined to play online and enjoy PVP elements.

Anyway, it's only a thought so lets not be rude.

Edit: I forgot to mention that lower costs would also allow for higher level NPC's, currently the risk of being killed by an NPC is very small.

 

[Comrade Napoleon]

Ehmm the rest of us seem to have adapted and get on fairly well.....

cheers Cmdr's

 

[Jack Schmit]

But.... but then I wouldn't get any chances to post this video on the forum!

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWPTbB_feNE

In all seriousness I must disagree with you. First off "one or two deaths" should NEVER wipe you back to a sidewinder (Unless of course you made Hitler's Mistake ) I'm by no means a rich man but even if my cargo hold was FULL of gold each time I died it wouldn't cripple me that quickly. Second, making insurance costs cheaper will cause more people to run amok blasting anything that moves out of the sky because they will not fear death. The lack of fear of death will also make me enjoy the game less, because instead of fearing for the massive potential loss every time I am interdicted I just wouldn't give a damn. I would feel no relief when I escape interdiction or if it was just a bounty hunter running a KWS, thus the only excitement I get from the game at the moment (fear of death) is gone.

I MAY be willing to back the idea of a reduced insurance cost for new players for say, 1 month after their 1st ship upgrade.... just to soften the blow if someone is getting targeted too much as a newbie. Reducing insurance costs for everybody is just a bad idea.

 

[HarlequiNQB]

Insurance is 5% the total cost of the ship you're in. That's not a huge amount of cash, an extra day of saving before buying that dream ship and it's covered. The issue more commonly seems to be that people get the big ship, with all the cargo space, and then immediately fill the hold with palladium or gold, and instead of leaving a few tons behind so they can cover the insurance cost they just go for broke.

That the first lighter run would likely cover that difference and allow for fuller holds from then on out is apparently not a thought that comes to those hell bent on getting a conda or multiple millions as soon as they can, like there's an end goal they can hit (there are three that FD will reward I guess - unlikely I'll win that prize, not going to sully my enjoyment trying).

So no, I don't think the insurance is unreasonable, rather the attitudes of pilots and a general lack of patience to hit imagined goals is.

That said, I ran without insurance once for a big payout, but I knew I was taking a risk and was willing to deal with any consequences. The stakes are higher now, I wouldn't do it again.

 

[TannakaObi]

Insurance is 5% the total cost of the ship you're in. That's not a huge amount of cash, an extra day of saving before buying that dream ship and it's covered. The issue more commonly seems to be that people get the big ship, with all the cargo space, and then immediately fill the hold with palladium or gold, and instead of leaving a few tons behind so they can cover the insurance cost they just go for broke.

That the first lighter run would likely cover that difference and allow for fuller holds from then on out is apparently not a thought that comes to those hell bent on getting a conda or multiple millions as soon as they can, like there's an end goal they can hit (there are three that FD will reward I guess - unlikely I'll win that prize, not going to sully my enjoyment trying).

So no, I don't think the insurance is unreasonable, rather the attitudes of pilots and a general lack of patience to hit imagined goals is.

That said, I ran without insurance once for a big payout, but I knew I was taking a risk and was willing to deal with any consequences. The stakes are higher now, I wouldn't do it again.

That is all based on being a trader. If you are a Bounty Hunter or a pirate earnings are much lower and the risk much higher. The attitudes of players is not going to change. It must be the games that fits in with the attitudes.

If the consequence of dieing is so small, why are some people so offended when they are pirated? Even though they do everything to ensure they are pirated? i.e playing in populated area's online.

 

[HarlequiNQB]

That is all based on being a trader. If you are a Bounty Hunter or a pirate earnings are much lower and the risk much higher. The attitudes of players is not going to change. It must be the games that fits in with the attitudes.

If the consequence of dieing is so small, why are some people so offended when they are pirated? Even though they do everything to ensure they are pirated? i.e playing in populated area's online.

The concept of holding off on that new ship until you can afford properly it are no different between any of the trades in the game. You buy that cobra and fit the flashy weapons on the hardpoints and all the shield cells and then head out, even though that shield cell put you past your insurance costs? You take on a ship too big for you to handle and get destroyed regardless of your new toys (or just accidentally boost into the side of the station on the way back). Could you have waited a day on those shield cells? Did you really need a number three beam laser just yet? Same theory - impatience to proceed results in a huge setback and frustration.

That said, 90% of the "Couldn't cover my insurance claim" posts on the forums would seem to be from Traders.

Personally I do a bit of both. I do have the Cobra with the fancy beams in the hanger, and a T6 for short trade runs. I could afford an Asp, or a T7 at this point, but I know that I'd also want to upgrade it (or put goods in the hold of the trader), and that would potentially put me past the insurance. I can wait - game's not going anywhere just yet; neither am I.

As to the consequences of dying - ship insurance or not, losing a big hold of platinum is going to hurt for anyone as the cargo isn't insured (though there is a slot to show cargo insurance - it's always 0, so I have no idea what it's for).

 

[Jack Schmit]

That said, 90% of the "Couldn't cover my insurance claim" posts on the forums would seem to be from Traders.

And it's always the same complaint: "I just bought a new ship and/or upgrades and filled my cargo hold with all my money without considering the risk of dying and having to restart in a Sidewinder!"

 

[SteveMallam]

This also would NOT benefit pirates.
The point of piracy is to obtain goods, not to murder innocent traders.
If the trader has no (or much reduced) fear of death, the pirate has no leverage for their demands.

I'm not - and never have been - a pirate, btw. It does look fun but I can't personally bring myself to upset other players.
Of course, if they shoot at me in a combat zone that's a different matter :0)

 

[OamodSias]

When I haul, I make sure I've got more than enough insurance cash to die and come back at least 3-4 times over. The insurance model is designed to give you a helping hand if you make a mistake; if you don't take precautions, you're going to start from scratch again. ED is not a game that's going to hold your hand; it's -finally- the first game where YOU are responsible for your own choices. And that, is truly fantastic imho. ^^

 

[TannakaObi]

This also would NOT benefit pirates.
The point of piracy is to obtain goods, not to murder innocent traders.
If the trader has no (or much reduced) fear of death, the pirate has no leverage for their demands.

It would benefit them, traders would be more inclined to fight for what they have rather than just give in or even worse run/logoff.

Put it this way, if I came across a trader with 8 units of gold, it would be better if they held me off for a while before they could escape and I only got one or two units using limpets or blowing the cargo doors than it would them submitting and giving me say four or even all of the gold. Yes the profit is worse but the enjoyment is better. Pirates are not really doing it for the money.

I'm not - and never have been - a pirate, btw. It does look fun but I can't personally bring myself to upset other players.
Of course, if they shoot at me in a combat zone that's a different matter :0)

This is kind of my point, it is not and never will be my intention to upset people. I want to be against players that want to fight off Pirates. The current system does not allow for that because the cost of losing a ship is too high and there is no protection on goods.

When I haul, I make sure I've got more than enough insurance cash to die and come back at least 3-4 times over. The insurance model is designed to give you a helping hand if you make a mistake; if you don't take precautions, you're going to start from scratch again. ED is not a game that's going to hold your hand; it's -finally- the first game where YOU are responsible for your own choices. And that, is truly fantastic imho. ^^

It has nothing to do with hand holding, insurance cost just create a wall in front of combat, no one wants to take 'risks' because there is so much to lose.
A trader losing all those units should be enough. A bounty hunter losing all those unclaimed bounties should be enough. A pirate having to pay it's own bounty should be enough.
Why bother having the risk of losing ones hard earned ship? What does it really add to the game? Other than a reluctance to enter combat against anything other than smaller ships.

 

[OamodSias]

It has nothing to do with hand holding, insurance cost just create a wall in front of combat, no one wants to take 'risks' because there is so much to lose.
A trader losing all those units should be enough. A bounty hunter losing all those unclaimed bounties should be enough. A pirate having to pay it's own bounty should be enough. Why bother having the risk of losing ones hard earned ship?

If they don't want to take the risks; then play a different game because this is the way ED was designed. There are consequences to your choices; there's a severe punishment to make a mistake. It's one of the core features of this game. It's uncompromising, it's unfair, it's a game designed to make you think.

Every time I step thruster out of a station in my T6, I take the risk of losing my cargo and my ship; and that, to me, adds a whole new dimension to this game.

What does it really add to the game?

A challenge.

 

[mistohise]

Not fighting pirates has very little to do with insurance cost IMO. More likely, it's because traders don't have the capability so the only option is running. This is not fixed by changing how costly (or not) it is to die.

 

[TannakaObi]

If they don't want to take the risks; then play a different game because this is the way ED was designed. There are consequences to your choices; there's a severe punishment to make a mistake. It's one of the core features of this game. It's uncompromising, it's unfair, it's a game designed to make you think.

Every time I step thruster out of a station in my T6, I take the risk of losing my cargo and my ship; and that, to me, adds a whole new dimension to this game.


A challenge.

It does not add a challenge, as everyone hides from combat from anything bigger than them, if the challenge for you is not crashing while leaving a station then quite frankly your are just rubbish at flying and that danger will still remain regardless. Avoiding anything bigger than you is not a design to make you 'think', quite the opposite. Encouraging combat and better use of upgrades is a way to make you 'think'.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Not fighting pirates has very little to do with insurance cost IMO. More likely, it's because traders don't have the capability so the only option is running. This is not fixed by changing how costly (or not) it is to die.

There are lots of ways to fight, but I agree. This should also be improved.

 

[Witzo]

Balance > rebuy is the new save game.

 

[xslam]

Rebuy cost is thing wich force the trader/slave to obey pirate orders.

 

[TannakaObi]

Rebuy cost is thing wich force the trader/slave to obey pirate orders.

Exactly, no skill other than a bigger ship with more weapons. I say turn that around, make pirates earn their worth by stealing the cargo with the tools, but then also force traders into using tools to defend themselves until they can escape. Make bounty hunters more willing to take the risk of fighting a bigger ship. ect...

 

[Kalearne]

When I trade, my ships are expressly kitted out for trading. Jump range and cargo space. I do pack shields but normally in an anti scrape role rather than anti combat. The same is true when I fly for combat or exploration. In this game generalisation is a weak fit. Specialisation keeps rebuy costs down too. Only having the modules that matter to what your doing right now.

I only mention this because as far as I'm concerned having one profession in here (whatever it happens to be) limits your game to the point threads like this appear. Just because your a pirate or psycho shouldn't stop you from hopping in a transport from time to time to top up your credits. The professions shouldn't have equal earning opportunity. If they were then all professions should have the same opportunities in all situations (e.g a trader should have just as much combat as a combat pilot).

If you can't afford to fly your ship you shouldn't fly it. If you need cash you should consider taking the best cash earning option, if you want combat you should take the best combat option.

Changing the insurance model will only damage this divide between your game choices. My most expensive ship is the Clipper, her rebuy is a mil a go. When I trade I can earn a fresh rebuy every twenty/thirty minutes. I don't care how hardcore a combat pilot you are, if you can't be bothered to spend half an hour to haul a load to cover your own costs, you shouldn't be asking the devs to spend days changing the insurance mechanic.

 

[OamodSias]

It does not add a challenge, as everyone hides from combat from anything bigger than them, if the challenge for you is not crashing while leaving a station then quite frankly your are just rubbish at flying and that danger will still remain regardless. Avoiding anything bigger than you is not a design to make you 'think', quite the opposite. Encouraging combat and better use of upgrades is a way to make you 'think'.

What are you talking about? Who said anything about crashing whilst leaving a station being a challenge?
I said if I leave station, there's a risk of losing my ship. It makes me think, it makes me wary. I'm cautious, and I'm careful. I'm kept on my toes and I like it this way because at any moment, a player could interdict and either demand cargo, or blow me up. And that makes it a challenge.

It's clear you're approaching this game in completely the wrong way, with completely the wrong mindset. And that's okay, ED isn't for everyone.

 

[TannakaObi]

When I trade, my ships are expressly kitted out for trading. Jump range and cargo space. I do pack shields but normally in an anti scrape role rather than anti combat. The same is true when I fly for combat or exploration. In this game generalisation is a weak fit. Specialisation keeps rebuy costs down too. Only having the modules that matter to what your doing right now.

I only mention this because as far as I'm concerned having one profession in here (whatever it happens to be) limits your game to the point threads like this appear. Just because your a pirate or psycho shouldn't stop you from hopping in a transport from time to time to top up your credits. The professions shouldn't have equal earning opportunity. If they were then all professions should have the same opportunities in all situations (e.g a trader should have just as much combat as a combat pilot).

If you can't afford to fly your ship you shouldn't fly it. If you need cash you should consider taking the best cash earning option, if you want combat you should take the best combat option.

Changing the insurance model will only damage this divide between your game choices. My most expensive ship is the Clipper, her rebuy is a mil a go. When I trade I can earn a fresh rebuy every twenty/thirty minutes. I don't care how hardcore a combat pilot you are, if you can't be bothered to spend half an hour to haul a load to cover your own costs, you shouldn't be asking the devs to spend days changing the insurance mechanic.

Lets get something clear, calling me a psycho because of the way I choose to play the game is on par with me calling you a bore because of the way you choose to play.

Also, I don't want the insurance lowered for my own benefit. I haven't lost a ship for ages. I was trying to offer a solution to traders crying over being pirated and calling other players psycho. My prefered solution would be for each player to play in the game modes designed for them. I.e people that don't want the risk of PVP pirating should find a group or play in solo. But as they blindly refuse such action and instead turn to cheating such as logging off it's clear that another solution needs to be implemented.

Another option would be to remove solo and group and instead have PVP and PVE game modes which I would also be happy with.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

It's clear you're approaching this game in completely the wrong way, with completely the wrong mindset. And that's okay, ED isn't for everyone.

I don't think you understand me at all. It's not me that refuses to play in game modes designed for me, it's not me that stoops to combat logging. It's not me that calls people names such as psycho on these boards for not playing the game as I want.

 

[Kalearne]

Lets get something clear, calling me a psycho because of the way I choose to play the game is on par with me calling you a bore because of the way you choose to play.

Also, I don't want the insurance lowered for my own benefit. I haven't lost a ship for ages. I was trying to offer a solution to traders crying over being pirated and calling other players psycho. My prefered solution would be for each player to play in the game modes designed for them. I.e people that don't want the risk of PVP pirating should find a group or play in solo. But as they blindly refuse such action and instead turn to cheating such as logging off it's clear that another solution needs to be implemented.

Another option would be to remove solo and group and instead have PVP and PVE game modes which I would also be happy with.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -



I don't think you understand me at all. It's not me that refuses to play in game modes designed for me, it's not me that stoops to combat logging. It's not me that calls people names such as psycho on these boards for not playing the game as I want.

Psycho was used as a profession and not an insult. A psycho player is interesting in destroying other players. Also going logoffski is a minority issue that affects PvP pilots as much as anyone else. Bad players are bad players. Killing the solo options for the game could run a risk of alienating a large percentage of the playerbase. Don't forget a LOT of players pre bought ED due to the single player option that was advertised. They want to play alone, not as part of a larger community and they shouldn't be sidelined for this. People want to have fun not be cannon fodder for psycho players. Elite Dangerous was built on the shoulders of Elite (84), primarily a single player trading/exploring game.

You can call me a bore if you want for how I choose to play the game, doesn't bother me in the slightest. Although given I'm covering trading, exploring, bounty hunting, smuggling, combat. Your not leaving much left you consider non tedious.