is atmospheric landing even possible with either of the 38 playable ships???

CMDR_LS

C
I am by no mean an aerospace engineer but after reading NASA's articles on their space shuttle , in particular the STS-120, I learned that it was built like a spaceplane.
What that means is, it can orbit Earth like a spaceship but when entering the Earth atmosphere, it glides down using its wings , taking advantage of basic aerodynamics.

Now, looking at some of the 38 playable ships we have today, some of them are literally a flying brick , (type 9, python, anaconda etc etc) , how on Earth are they going to land on an Earth like planet with a gravitational force of -9.41g and having no WINGS whatsoever?? the moment they enter an Earth-like planet atmosphere they will fall down like a bird high on cocaine.
Now I know this is year 3036 or whatever and technology is far more advanced but think about it, even today, when you try to land on a low gravity planet , you can feel the ship being pulled down so an Earth like planet with super high gravity AND atmosphere - there is no way those behemoths can safely land. Unless Frontier is cooking up some new guardian technology that upon entering an atmosphere, a set of wings come out and you can glide down like an airplane. I just hope it's not going to be as fake as No Man's Sky with like zero realism...

if there are any real aerospace engineers or real-life pilots here, feel free to comment. I am really curious what options they have in terms of allowing those monster ships to land on an Earth like planet and yet keep the game as realistic as possible.

cheers
 

777Driver

777Driver
As stated above, our ships have a huge advantage, infinite thrust on tap, combined with a fuel burn that is independent of how much thrust is being generated. No need to worry about orbital mechanics, escape velocity's or re-entry.

We already land on planets with no atmospheres, our ships do not require an aerodynamic design in order to fly.
 

NorthernDevo

NorthernDevo
CMDR_LS said:
I am by no mean an aerospace engineer but after reading NASA's articles on their space shuttle , in particular the STS-120, I learned that it was built like a spaceplane.
What that means is, it can orbit Earth like a spaceship but when entering the Earth atmosphere, it glides down using its wings , taking advantage of basic aerodynamics.

Now, looking at some of the 38 playable ships we have today, some of them are literally a flying brick , (type 9, python, anaconda etc etc) , how on Earth are they going to land on an Earth like planet with a gravitational force of -9.41g and having no WINGS whatsoever?? the moment they enter an Earth-like planet atmosphere they will fall down like a bird high on cocaine.
Now I know this is year 3036 or whatever and technology is far more advanced but think about it, even today, when you try to land on a low gravity planet , you can feel the ship being pulled down so an Earth like planet with super high gravity AND atmosphere - there is no way those behemoths can safely land. Unless Frontier is cooking up some new guardian technology that upon entering an atmosphere, a set of wings come out and you can glide down like an airplane. I just hope it's not going to be as fake as No Man's Sky with like zero realism...

if there are any real aerospace engineers or real-life pilots here, feel free to comment. I am really curious what options they have in terms of allowing those monster ships to land on an Earth like planet and yet keep the game as realistic as possible.

cheers
Click to expand...
Real-life pilot here - fixed wing and helicopter.
I've no idea how ED is going to do atmospheric landing, I just hope they implement it - I'm not up on the news.
The main thing I have in mind in regards to atmospheric behaviour isn't realism so much - we're talking about ships that fly in Supercruise at up to 2000 times the speed of light. Everything about ED is essentially unrealistic and that's OK - it's unrealistic in a consistent manner (mostly).

What I'm thinking of is that if it IS implemented, that spacecraft operate with the atmosphere in mind. Take Earth, for example - with a surface pressure of 1 Bar (14.5psi) Earth's nitrogen atmosphere is a significant obstacle for a ship coming in from space. Shuttles successfully did it on a regular basis, with one awful failure. They were, however, moving very slowly in relation to the planet as compared to ED ships.
Consider planetary landing as it's currently implemented in Horizons: there is a fairly narrow window of success in terms of angle and speed, though it becomes easy and intuitive with a bit of practice. Now - add an atmosphere into the mix, and you've got SERIOUS complications.
What I would personally like to see is this: while the ship shape itself shouldn't be realistically represented in atmosphere (like you say, the T-7 is basically just a brick) it should make entry harder. A ship passing through the atmosphere should have strong shields, EVERY pip in SYS and enter the atmosphere slowly. Atmospheric friction should heat the ships up terribly - kind of like hitting 2 SCB's without a HS on board - if the angle or speed is too great.
Flight control should revert to atmospheric behaviour - turning into the bank, dragging in a slip, etc. - and it should take a LOT of engine power to maintain altitude. There should be a distinct angle of attack. While some ships - such as the python and similar - have some kind of aerodynamic shape, none can be classed as even a lifting body. That said, something like the Python should behave somewhat better in atmo than the oft-referenced in this post T-7.
Another thing to consider: size, in terms of control and momentum. Even the smallest ship - the Sidewinder - is big compared to terrestrial aircraft. These machines WILL have a ton of inertia, they should be heavy and sluggish on the controls. The bigger, less aerodynamic the ship, the harder it should be to get through the atmosphere and to fly once there. (Good LUCK, T-9! hehe)
All in all, it should be HARD, but doable. There should be a LOT of skin heating (a plasma sheath would be a REAL cool graphic for this), speed should be VERY tightly controlled. Even the best ship should handle like a brick, and worse if it looks like a brick.
Those are my thoughts, cheers!
:)
 
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Leadfoot

Leadfoot
They SHOULD be aerodynamic, shouldn't they? Eventually we'll have to ram that thing right smack into the atmosphere in even the oddest shape of spacecraft.

In reality, probably not. What save us from this "reality" is that (1) we have shields that can protect us from the fiery blaze of reentry and (2) it's a game so Science doesn't always count. More likely the answer to this issue will be #2.
 

rrobes

R
Deployable, jettisonable drag parachutes, come in tail first, full thrusters all the way down, dump sinks to shed heat.

Need a rear view however.

I don't see atmospheric landings or surfaces to match anytime soon, if ever, but we can speculate.
 

leeG

leeG
Synchronize with the planet‘s rotation just outside the atmospher, then use our powerful thrusters to descend straight down to the surface like a helicopter. Unlike 21st century rockets, our ships can put out continuous maximum thrust for hours, if not days. Just keep your speed low enough so you don’t overheat due to atmospheric friction and you’re good. Not that ships that refuel in a star’s corona need to worry that much about heat.
 

777Driver

777Driver

Devs painted themselves into a corner. How can a ship have any difficulty in an atmosphere when it is capable of scooping from stars/riding Jet cones.

Same deal with having issues with handling on planets, these ships use thrusters, not control surfaces. No point trying to compare the tech to anything currently flying today. We have ships with an unlimited thrust to weight ratio.
 

Greasetrap42

Greasetrap42
If its okay for the Falcon, then its okay for your Krait.

falcon.jpg
 

NorthernDevo

NorthernDevo
777Driver said:
Devs painted themselves into a corner. How can a ship have any difficulty in an atmosphere when it is capable of scooping from stars/riding Jet cones.

Same deal with having issues with handling on planets, these ships use thrusters, not control surfaces. No point trying to compare the tech to anything currently flying today. We have ships with an unlimited thrust to weight ratio.
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Very true; I'm just thinking about how I'd like it to feel in the game. :)
 

777Driver

777Driver
NorthernDevo said:
Very true; I'm just thinking about how I'd like it to feel in the game. :)
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They could get creative with microbursts, windshear on epic scales, towering CB that dwarf what we are used to here on earth.

Personally I am expecting rain/snow effects on the canopy, some turbulence and a light show on re-entry, low visibility from dust storms/fog, basically space engine with a bit of procedural weather based on the type of body, pressure, temp, distance from local star etc. Not expecting to see it until the final paid update though.
 

Greasetrap42

Greasetrap42
I'm not knowledgeable on ED Lore but I assume the ships available to commanders are also used in atmospheric travel for the earth-like inhabited worlds. Because somehow they have access to space flight. Perhaps not all types of ships, but some of them at least.

I think it would add a great dynamic to the game if some ships were atmosphere capable while others are not.
 
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Kelster87

Kelster87
I've kinda assumed that our ships will perform much the same as they do on no atmosphere bodies, with added effects for weather, atmospheric pressure and the like, so generally a little worse than now.

And for some nagging reason I can't put my finger on, I suspect gravity will be more of an issue for pilots than the atmosphere. There's something rattling around up in the brain soup about atmospheres and the minimum G of a body, but I don't remember the numbers.. Must look it up later.
 

777Driver

777Driver
CMDR Maylor Rom said:
They provide sufficient lift to glide to the ground. Of course, none of the 38 ships have the appropriate landing gear and the engines and thrusters on board won't stop you from smacking the ground. No way to stop the glide.
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I have to admit, I have never understood this logic. The only additional factor is drag, something that would be a complete non issue.

More to the point, why would you think these ships require lift? Since drag is a non issue, why would there be any difference in thruster capability?

Before horizons launched, MB stated he wanted the ships to be challenging when landing on non atmospheric worlds, what we got in the end was ships with infinite thrust. An atmosphere is not going to change that.

Stick computer controlled thrusters on a giant brick, give it unlimited thrust, it will fly perfectly. We only worry about aerodynamics and thrust because our aircraft and ships are fuel limited, with finite thrust.
 
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