Is griefing just a reaction to Sturgeon's Law?

[Andrew Sayers]

Using the same standards that categorize 90% of science fiction as trash, crud, or crap, it can be argued that 90% of film, literature, consumer goods, etc. are crap.

Sturgeon's Law says that 90% of examples of just about everything are bad. I got thinking lately - does that apply to 90% of encounters between players in games? It sounds like most people you meet in games are too powerful, too weak, too focussed on roleplay, too focussed on min/maxing, or otherwise not someone you'd get on with. Looking at it that way, many of the problems in this forum boil down to strategies for working round that problem:

• Some people want to flag their interests and only meet people that share them - ironmen are good examples. This maximises the percentage of good matches, at the cost of reducing the total number of good matches
• Some people want to meet the maximum possible number of people - PvP players are good examples. This maximises the total number of good matches, at the cost of increasing the number of bad matches
• A common theme in describing griefers is that they find ways to extract fun from the maximum possible number of people, even if that means ruining the game for them

Does that describe your gaming experience, and how have the games you play solved the problem?

 

[Listeri69]

Sturgeon's Law is more sarcastic that fact, ' the claim (or fact) that 90% of science fiction is crap is ultimately uninformative, because science fiction conforms to the same trends of quality as all other artforms. '

what you have to take into account is how much input into an artform there is/will be. If 90% of all Elite players are crap that leaves 10% good players of which 90% of them will be crap griefers....... Like any law if you extrapolate it to its lowest form it becomes worthless.....

 

[psykokow]

thanks for 90% of that!

 

[OneoftheLost]

I don't think griefing has to do with most of that. As was stated, Sturgeon's law is something of a joke.

Griefing generally comes from bored players, or young players who can't grasp the game. Its the equivalent of the child that always gets into fights because he's looking for attention. Elite's community mostly consists of older folks last I knew, so I'd imagine we won't have much grief at launch. I've also noticed that most 'free-to-play' games have alot more griefers. I assume this is because they are young and don't have money to actually buy games.

However, I've also seen another kind of griefer, and they are generally just bored. In another game, I saw a video of a griefer who blocked the exit to the spawn room and started asking political and geographical questions until someone got them right, and he let them out. It was genuinely funny, and shows that griefing isn't ALWAYS bad.

I think its more a product of boredom/lack of skill more then anything else.

 

[Fromhell]

Some people should do something against their xenophobia...

 

[DigitalDuck]

Some people should do something against their xenophobia...

Some people should learn how to use a dictionary.

 

[Fromhell]

Some people should learn how to use a dictionary.

Let me help you
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angst

 

[Mobius]

Im one of the 99%,

 

[DigitalDuck]

Let me help you

Wikipedia's an encyclopaedia. Try this.

 

[Kerrash]

meh.
Griefer's gone grief. Just play offline, that what I'm going to do.

This is exactly why I avoid online gaming, playing a game for me is a chance to escape and behave the way I want; this is probably how most griefers feel too.

 

[insanephoton]

I don't think griefing has to do with most of that. As was stated, Sturgeon's law is something of a joke.

Griefing generally comes from bored players, or young players who can't grasp the game. Its the equivalent of the child that always gets into fights because he's looking for attention. Elite's community mostly consists of older folks last I knew, so I'd imagine we won't have much grief at launch. I've also noticed that most 'free-to-play' games have alot more griefers. I assume this is because they are young and don't have money to actually buy games.

However, I've also seen another kind of griefer, and they are generally just bored. In another game, I saw a video of a griefer who blocked the exit to the spawn room and started asking political and geographical questions until someone got them right, and he let them out. It was genuinely funny, and shows that griefing isn't ALWAYS bad.

I think its more a product of boredom/lack of skill more then anything else.

I'm going to have to disagree with some of the points. Are griefers bored players? perhaps. Attention seeking ? certainly... why else would they bother posting on youtube. Younger? perhaps... most of their humour seems quite juvenile. Less skilled or unable to grasp the game? No! I'd say that some of them have vastly more skill and an infinitely better understanding of a games mechanics than the average public player.

As for the video you talked about. It sounds like one of the Team ROOMBA Team Fortress 2 videos. I agree that some of the stuff they did was clever and it was funny to watch, but put yourself in the position of one of the unfortunate victims. Perhaps they were taking the game too seriously, but did they really deserve someone else disrupting their game?

 

[OneoftheLost]

I'm going to have to disagree with some of the points. Are griefers bored players? perhaps. Attention seeking ? certainly... why else would they bother posting on youtube. Younger? perhaps... most of their humour seems quite juvenile. Less skilled or unable to grasp the game? No! I'd say that some of them have vastly more skill and an infinitely better understanding of a games mechanics than the average public player.

As for the video you talked about. It sounds like one of the Team ROOMBA Team Fortress 2 videos. I agree that some of the stuff they did was clever and it was funny to watch, but put yourself in the position of one of the unfortunate victims. Perhaps they were taking the game too seriously, but did they really deserve someone else disrupting their game?

Yeah! Couldn't remember who they where, but yeah, it was TF2. I still get a bit teary eyed over the player's responses.

"OH MY GOD GET A GIRLFRIEND!"

Gets me every time.

Anyhow, perhaps skill is required to troll, but I've seen folks get tired of trying to learn the game and just go around griefing/trolling/being a nuisance. A good example of this would be Battlefield 3 and just team killing instead of learning anything. Obviously I don't think this will be an issue in Elite due to the open ended nature of the game, but on team based games with TKing, like Mount and Blade or the BF series, its actually quite common.

As for your final point, I completely agree, it is childish, and a bit silly, but sometimes knocking someone out of their element just adds to the fun. Which is alot of the reason why some people want Elite's multiplayer to be forced PVP. Kind of like how Ultima Online used to be when it first launched. (or at least how it was described to me.)

 

[Robert Maynard]

As for your final point, I completely agree, it is childish, and a bit silly, but sometimes knocking someone out of their element just adds to the fun.

Fun for whom, exactly?

Which is alot of the reason why some people want Elite's multiplayer to be forced PVP.

To enable them to impose their will on others without any real penalty?

Kind of like how Ultima Online used to be when it first launched. (or at least how it was described to me.)

Did it change? If so, why?

 

[OneoftheLost]

1. Fun for whom, exactly?



2. To enable them to impose their will on others without any real penalty?



3. Did it change? If so, why?

1.Depends on the person. I've been 'trolled' in several games, and despite myself getting angry, I became friends with that person and we troll each other here and there nowadays. Taught me to not take video games so seriously. Granted I'd never grief anyone else, but you get the idea. It all depends on the person.

2. Hey don't look at me. This is a direct quote from a thread on these very forums!

Non-consensual PvP is a conflict driver. It forces player interaction. You may not like it, but that's ok. You don't have to. It will still make your game better, because you don't like it. It will force you into certain types of fun, which you might otherwise avoid. You may not find dealing with a childish ganker particularly immersive, but the ganker himself is not important. The threat of the ganker is important. He is playing a part that needs to be played. He is making the world dangerous. He is giving you someone to dislike, and that gives you a chance to forge alliances with others who feel the same way. In the long term, that is what makes a game more interesting.

For what it's worth I do not agree, but I can see where he was coming from. Also it looks like you took part in that thread, so I think I know your thoughts on it and why you disagree, I'm just pointing out that some people feel differently then us.

3. Yes, and I don't know why. I assume it was a variety of factors, but I have never played the game, so I cannot say. It was simply an example of a famous forced PVP game.

I'm NOT defending or endorsing griefing. I'm simply trying to point out, that griefing is inevitable. Humanity is far from a pleasant species. Whenever a car gets its tires slashed or keyed, or when a child gets picked on, you are looking at an aspect of humanity that is similar to griefing. Why would someone find pleasure in causing hundreds of dollars in property damage? Who knows. The sad fact is that these things are a part of life, and in our case, part of the internet. It is one of the MANY reasons I will only play SP or Coop with close friends.

 

[Fromhell]

I am tired and sick of the term "griefing" thrown around like it would equal "PvP".

Read the definition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer

A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways.[1] A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals.



Entering combat against a player is NOT GRIEFING in a multiplayer space sim which allows PVP. It is an intended way, a carreer, a gameplay mode.

This thread is nothing more than another poor attempt to get attention to a minority carebear PvE-only agenda. Go hide under a stone, get a different hobby, play offline, but don´t let another online multiplayer game get destroyed by those immersion breakers making up a problem which does not exist.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I am tired and sick of the term "griefing" thrown around like it would equal "PvP".

Read the definition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer

A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways.[1] A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals.



Entering combat against a player is NOT GRIEFING in a multiplayer space sim which allows PVP. It is an intended way, a carreer, a gameplay mode.

This thread is nothing more than another poor attempt to get attention to a minority carebear PvE-only agenda. Go hide under a stone, get a different hobby, play offline, but don´t let another online multiplayer game get destroyed by those immersion breakers making up a problem which does not exist.

Charming.

 

[Magma]

A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways

A quick look at the Kickstarter campaign reveals this little official FD quote:

An obvious danger is an advanced player with a big well-armed ship in a busy system spends their time just picking off beginners, for fun.

To understand how this will be stopped...

So it is explicitly stated that FD expect established players should not be able to be able to use a massively overpowered ship to pick beginners off in busy systems for fun. Therefore, given that you are using that definition of "Griefer", you must be happy to concede that it is the correct term to use in this circumstance, yes?

 

[Fromhell]

So it is explicitly stated that FD expect established players should not be able to be able to use a massively overpowered ship to pick beginners off in busy systems for fun. Therefore, given that you are using that definition of "Griefer", you must be happy to concede that it is the correct term to use in this circumstance, yes?

Police is taking care of this.
Beginners better stay out of dangerous systems until they are skilled/geared enough


Don´t send noobs armed with water pistols to Afghanistan

 

[Zak Gordon]

I don't think griefing has to do with most of that. As was stated, Sturgeon's law is something of a joke.

Griefing generally comes from bored players, or young players who can't grasp the game. Its the equivalent of the child that always gets into fights because he's looking for attention. Elite's community mostly consists of older folks last I knew, so I'd imagine we won't have much grief at launch. I've also noticed that most 'free-to-play' games have alot more griefers. I assume this is because they are young and don't have money to actually buy games.

However, I've also seen another kind of griefer, and they are generally just bored. In another game, I saw a video of a griefer who blocked the exit to the spawn room and started asking political and geographical questions until someone got them right, and he let them out. It was genuinely funny, and shows that griefing isn't ALWAYS bad.

I think its more a product of boredom/lack of skill more then anything else.

Pretty much on the money. If i had one word for my experience of on-line MP gaming it would be 'Juvenile'. Not every time and not all the time, but overall the whole experience often boils down to something i nearly always find unsatisfying.

Not because i can't compete etc (i used to hang out on the Delta-Force servers quite a bit), but because all it takes is one other person exhibiting their juvenile behaviour and the whole illusion that a game and game world is about just falls apart.

I game for the experience of those game worlds (from pac-mans mazes to Elites wide open black and white vector-graphic galaxy), not to feel like i'm just in a school playground.

Sadly my conclusion (after a decade or more of trying) is that to really enjoy the experience of a game, i have to leave out the school playground, as i will be doing in Elite: Dangerous.

 

[ianw]

I am tired and sick of the term "griefing" thrown around like it would equal "PvP".

Read the definition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer

A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways.[1] A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals.

Entering combat against a player is NOT GRIEFING in a multiplayer space sim which allows PVP. It is an intended way, a carreer, a gameplay mode.

This thread is nothing more than another poor attempt to get attention to a minority carebear PvE-only agenda. Go hide under a stone, get a different hobby, play offline, but don´t let another online multiplayer game get destroyed by those immersion breakers making up a problem which does not exist.

If you read the thread up to your post the only person that seems to have equated griefing with PVP is you.