Is pure armour tanking dead?

[Snarfbuckle]

I'm against pure shield tanking out of principle with the extreme stacking of SB's and SCB's making it all a game of attrition vs potion quaffing and perhaps it has changed since it was introduced.

I prefer full hull tanking but is it viable?

I was planning this little thing that should work against both Thargs and regular enemies (most likely not in PVP because im a rubbish pilot).

http://www.edshipyard.com/#/L=A0Q0,...sPc4ypDAqpDEqpDIqpD12GGp50sPc4ypDAqpDEqpDIqpD

Powerplant integrity: 300
Resistances 51%+ across the board
3400 effective hitpoints
Dual S4 module reinforcements
200-487 in speed

 

[Caramel Clown]

Well, you've got the right ship to start with
I don't think it was ever viable as in "completely meta", but there's always a way to make it work. Worth saying that it's mostly applies to PVP, with a good use of silent running perhaps. Never tried full hull tank for PVE, even though I regularly fly FAS.
Edit: I think you're losing more effective durability by ditching even the most basic shields. 5C biweave has very quick recharge, so you will potentially gain some extra hitpoints every 40 seconds or so, while that hull reinforcements only provides flat amount of effective hull strength. So even in full hull tank build you can keep the shields as an additional layer of defense.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

Well, you've got the right ship to start with
I don't think it was ever viable as in "completely meta", but there's always a way to make it work. Worth saying that it's mostly applies to PVP, with a good use of silent running perhaps. Never tried full hull tank for PVE, even though I regularly fly FAS.

Well, the FAS is the most maneuverable of the "Federal" medium ship line so it felt right to start there with the demand of mass.

I had quite fun with a B rated AspS with fixed multis with Incendiary rounds. unmodified with B rated modules i had around 2K effective hit points and it's maneuverability and armour (combined with it's armour hardness of 52) made it a very nice tank. Felt a lot more like old school flight combat with actual hull damage. The hardpoint placement is top notch on that ship.

It's nice to be able to move 3 pips to shield and engines as well and completely ignore shield energy.

 

[Starman 1966]

Simply give it a try. I'm currently building such a FAS myself for experimenting with some PVP. The rebuy is considerably "cheap" compared to a FDL or a Python. But forget about using point defenses. The FAS' utility slots are awkwardly placed and give no field of fire. Try ECM instead if you like a countermeasure. But I think best would be constantly 4 pips to sys and endless boosting in case of incoming missiles. And don't forget to mod your external modules for highest integrity (except of your thrusters which should of course be Dirty G5).

 

[Aashenfox]

Horses for courses. I run a shieldless FAS, but that just because that's a good build for the FAS. I run a single biweave and no SCBs or boosters on the gunship, because the shield recharges from one full systems capacitor in about 18 seconds (I don't need ANY pips in shields to get it back up in 18 secs, as long as the sys cap is full), I think of it as a regular weak heal and extra module protection. A courier, FDL or clipper, I'd run as a shield tank. Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending how you look at it), you can do both, you can 4, 6 or 8 shield boosters and a big shield AND fit every optional module with hull and module reinforcements. You won't be able to do anything else but fight, but you'll be very VERY durable.

 

[Aashenfox]

Simply give it a try. I'm currently building such a FAS myself for experimenting with some PVP. The rebuy is considerably "cheap" compared to a FDL or a Python. But forget about using point defenses. The FAS' utility slots are awkwardly placed and give no field of fire. Try ECM instead if you like a countermeasure. But I think best would be constantly 4 pips to sys and endless boosting in case of incoming missiles. And don't forget to mod your external modules for highest integrity (except of your thrusters which should of course be Dirty G5).

I run two point defence (and 2 chaff, fwiw), you just have to remember to turn your belly toward missiles, it doesn't take long to get used to. I wouldn't fly pve OR pvp without point defence on the FAS. Only missiles can do big damage to the FAS hull, you don't want them hitting you.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

Simply give it a try. I'm currently building such a FAS myself for experimenting with some PVP. The rebuy is considerably "cheap" compared to a FDL or a Python. But forget about using point defenses. The FAS' utility slots are awkwardly placed and give no field of fire. Try ECM instead if you like a countermeasure. But I think best would be constantly 4 pips to sys and endless boosting in case of incoming missiles. And don't forget to mod your external modules for highest integrity (except of your thrusters which should of course be Dirty G5).

You mean 4 pips to ENG right?

Well, the PDS would be against the little Tharglets that's why i took two of them since they tend to circle you for attack runs.

I just switch weapons for X2 anti-tharg guns and X2 anti-tharg missiles.

Yea, all modules except utilities, life support and sensors are modded for integrity.

 

[Muetdhiver]

Not for PvP (IMO). Shield tanking is way better in terms of effective HP's (and is boosted way more than armor by engineers).

For PvE sure. I have a hull tank cobra and it's quite fun actually.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

I run two point defence (and 2 chaff, fwiw), you just have to remember to turn your belly toward missiles, it doesn't take long to get used to. I wouldn't fly pve OR pvp without point defence on the FAS. Only missiles can do big damage to the FAS hull, you don't want them hitting you.

How do they do big damage? Only if we have lower resistance to it.

- Take reactive armour
- Mod it with Thermal resist 5

Now you have an average resist baseline of 12-15 resistance across the board. Fill up with X5 hull reinforcement and take Heavy duty 5 on all of them and we sit pretty at 51-54 resists with max rolls.

Now everything hurts equally bad. =P

 

[wenkman]

hull tanking works, question would be for what?

if you want to earn money, an expensive ship as hull tank reduces your income due to the repair bill.

but for other purposes (fun, material gain, etc.) hull tanking works. you can definitely survive some encounters with it.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

Not for PvP (IMO). Shield tanking is way better in terms of effective HP's (and is boosted way more than armor by engineers).

For PvE sure. I have a hull tank cobra and it's quite fun actually.

Yea, PVP is HP bloating and health potion attrition basically so it's not really viable when looking at "even" matches.

That said, I do get to skip PIP's into SYS completely and can focus on guns and engines instead.

 

[Starman 1966]

You mean 4 pips to ENG right?

You're right. Shouldn't post that early without coffee.

 

[Aashenfox]

hull tanking works, question would be for what?

if you want to earn money, an expensive ship as hull tank reduces your income due to the repair bill.

but for other purposes (fun, material gain, etc.) hull tanking works. you can definitely survive some encounters with it.

I can stay in a CZ until I run out of ammo in my hull tank FAS, I honestly believe that those who believe that shield tanking is superior, haven't got into the math of the HRPs and resistances. My FAS reduces 50% of ALL incoming damage (except absolute of course), thermal, explosive and kinetic. The ONLY thing I have to worry about is my hardpoints getting damaged.

For duelling, one on one, armor is extremely effective and allows you to run very juicy weapons (no pips in shields). For multiple contact engagements, yeh I prefer a shield.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

hull tanking works, question would be for what?

if you want to earn money, an expensive ship as hull tank reduces your income due to the repair bill.

but for other purposes (fun, material gain, etc.) hull tanking works. you can definitely survive some encounters with it.

Yea, if they increase the repair costs on ships hull tankers will suffer even more.

While i like the idea of increased ship repair costs it would be nice if it was raised exponentially depending on module damage.

Perhaps +1% cost for every 5% of a single modules damage (ie a module with only 4% integrity left would then have a 19% increased repair cost while armour rating/hp is a flat repair fee (armour plating is cheaper than pulling out a nuclear power plant and replacing important parts.)

 

[Aashenfox]

How do they do big damage? Only if we have lower resistance to it.

- Take reactive armour
- Mod it with Thermal resist 5

Now you have an average resist baseline of 12-15 resistance across the board. Fill up with X5 hull reinforcement and take Heavy duty 5 on all of them and we sit pretty at 51-54 resists with max rolls.

Now everything hurts equally bad. =P

I like to think I'm a master of resistances, like I say above, I'm 50% resistant to everything in my hull only FAS, but missiles have a larger initial hit, so all things being equal 50% of a missile hit is still more than 50% of any other hit (except mines, torps and other same category).

If you want balanced resistances in the FAS, you need reactive with a thermal mod and a lucky explosive bonus roll. Then you want to keep rolling the HD HRPs until you have resistances (don't worry too much about absolute armor values, it's the resistances that count). I have one size 5 G5 HD HRP with 19% resistance to all. I squeed a little when that one rolled.

 

[Muetdhiver]

Yea, PVP is HP bloating and health potion attrition basically so it's not really viable when looking at "even" matches.

That said, I do get to skip PIP's into SYS completely and can focus on guns and engines instead.

Sure, but the 4pips in engine provide way less effective hp's than 4 pips in shields... also, without shields, external hardpoints are rather
easy to disable with a missile barrage. Then there is the fact that HRP's weight a lot and only come up to C5 (while SCB's can use the C6/7/8 internal slots much more effectively).

From my POV, the deck is stacked against hull tanking.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

I like to think I'm a master of resistances, like I say above, I'm 50% resistant to everything in my hull only FAS, but missiles have a larger initial hit, so all things being equal 50% of a missile hit is still more than 50% of any other hit (except mines, torps and other same category).

If you want balanced resistances in the FAS, you need reactive with a thermal mod and a lucky explosive bonus roll. Then you want to keep rolling the HD HRPs until you have resistances (don't worry too much about absolute armor values, it's the resistances that count). I have one size 5 G5 HD HRP with 19% resistance to all. I squeed a little when that one rolled.

True, the AOE of explosives can be a problem.

That's why i like cannons with explosive mod.

 

[lreese]

After watching The Expanse I would prefer if there were no shields in the game at all. Just armor, evasive manouvering, emp and point defense. But, goes against lore.

 

[Aashenfox]

True, the AOE of explosives can be a problem.

That's why i like cannons with explosive mod.

I love the high yield cannons too, especially long range (extra shot speed) That's what I run on the gunship, but I'm getting rid of them tonight, they just run out of ammo too fast. Even with ammo engineering. So my gunship from tonight will be all fixed (yes, I like making life hard for myself), with a large and two medium hull bleed efficient PAs and keep the existing 2 medium and 2 small rails (small rails also run out of ammo too quick. Grrr).

My FAS always runs two large PAs (efficient for pve, focused for pvp) and a 2 medium rails (one super pen, one feedback cascade), it's da bomb.

 

[StiTch]

Well, you've got the right ship to start with
I don't think it was ever viable as in "completely meta

The SR rail-de-lance disagrees.

And hull tanking was far more prominent a while back...

OP, depends on your intention. PvE? Anything engineered can do well in PvE. There's nothing that will fail. Ya just have to deal with module damage and repair costs. PvP? Hybrid tanking is often better, but a pure hull tank can do well as long as you have some very reasonable skills under your belt.

If you ever want just a hull tank duel, that could be a lot of fun.