Is this game a grind? An attempt to answer...

Obsidian Ant

Obsidian Ant
People keep talking about Elite being a grind. Other people keep saying "all games are a grind", and others still say, "there's no such thing as a grind". I feel there is so much misunderstanding on the issue - so I attempted to illustrate my take own the matter.

1CL05gc.jpg
 
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Obsidian Ant

Obsidian Ant
Look at where I placed the X on the chart... :) It could possibly go a little more to the right.

The game is also somewhat unique in that we could perhaps put two X in there depending upon your playstyle. GTAV for example would have one X for the single player game, and another for the online mode. :D
 

Comrade Napoleon

Comrade Napoleon
To OP: ? Rep for chart and visual presentation.

Its difficult to label this game really, you cant do all in Sidey, but you cant do all in 'Conda either.
I think of it as a long journey, and as long I'am not forced to do anything I dont feel like, its not a grind. When I trade for 8 hours straight durin CG it was not grind, I wanted to do that.
When I did Res for 8 hours straight for CG it was not grind.
Yesterday I just flew around for 4 hours and did nothing, earned nothing , i enjoyed the flying :)
The game is what you make it, and how you play it.... Drinking beer can be a grind too :eek:

Cheers Cmdr's
 

Petersen

P
It's a nice infographic, even if it oversimplifies a rather complicated issue.

I'm not sure what all the "non-grinding" games you list are, but there's one there I recognize, an Elder Scrolls game (not sure which one, but it's clearly post-morrowind).

The thing is, you can grinding in Elder Scrolls games. It's not usually necessary, it's not always even really productive, but you can do it. Heck, I actually do it for an hour or two when I start a new Skyrim game so I can buy the Whiterun house and have a place to stash my hoard.

In fact, in practically all games you can grind. Even going back to Super Mario World (grinding lives), and Mega Man 2 (grinding power ups in Metal Man's stage in that hallway with all the screws.

The issue gets even more complicated when you consider that many games (particularly open world and/or sandbox games) have many different modes of play.

To take Elite as an example, I 'grinded' to get the credits to buy my Asp, and to get some system permits (still need Sol, dammit...), but once I got my Asp and got it outfitted as I wanted I suddenly had no reason to 'grind' any more. I could finally just go traipsing across the galaxy looking at pretty balls. I may be doing a repetitive task that others would quickly consider that grinding,b(ecause their goal might be to Elite-rank their Exploration profession), but it's not grinding to me. It's my preferred and genuinely, intrinsically enjoyed mode of play.

I do agree that games whose central driving motivation to play is either accumulation of currency (or loot/gear) and/or bar-filling (in any of its manifold and myriad forms) lend themselves exceedingly easy to being reduced to 'grind games', where you're not playing the game itself, you're playing the bars, numbers, or RNG, but that's not to say that they cannot also have intrinsically enjoyable gameplay, or at least some individuals who enjoy aspects of gameplay independent of the pursuit of ever-bigger numbers.
 

Arjin

Arjin
Nicely done Antman I do think ED is a grind type of game, but most games are grindy it just varies on what is involved to achieve your game play goal. In ED you have choices to make in order to advance your goals but they all revolve around the same function of grinding out credits in order to gear up your ship. It's focused grinding. The only non-grindy aspect of ED is exploring after you have grinded out enough credits to equip your ship the way you want, then you can just go exploring as you see fit. Is the repetitive nature of jumping between star systems looking for new planets etc grindy? I say no because it is non-focused you can do whatever you want at this point when exploring.

Skyrim for example can be non-focused as you can still level up your character just by using an item or an action as you merrily skip along the path, or you can choose to be focused by repeatedly performing the action (grinding) in order to level up swords faster for example.

Level based games are always grindy in nature, this is in my opinion unavoidable as it built into the game design by mere relation of you have to, or you won't get to level 50..

But basically it always boils down to, if there is a goal to be achieved there will be some sort of grind in order to get there.


EDIT: I do however think we can ALL be happy that this is a British built game and not an Asian built game as those folks REALLY know how to amplify the grind..
 
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peteuplink

peteuplink
I find I get the most out of this game if I roleplay my way through it. I find that if I play this game as myself, Pete, sitting at home looking at it on a PC screen and just doing mission after mission, I get bored with the grind. But if I roleplay it, like I would a game of D&D, and think as my commander and how he may react in a given situation, I find I enjoy the game more and I can immerse myself in it better.

I hope that makes sense.
 

Cosmos

C
Comrade Napoleon said:
To OP: ? Rep for chart and visual presentation.

Its difficult to label this game really, you cant do all in Sidey, but you cant do all in 'Conda either.
I think of it as a long journey, and as long I'am not forced to do anything I dont feel like, its not a grind. When I trade for 8 hours straight durin CG it was not grind, I wanted to do that.
When I did Res for 8 hours straight for CG it was not grind.
Yesterday I just flew around for 4 hours and did nothing, earned nothing , i enjoyed the flying :)
The game is what you make it, and how you play it.... Drinking beer can be a grind too :eek:

Cheers Cmdr's
Click to expand...

Hmm.. I think we have to be honest here, perhaps its subjective, but I've found much of the game to be grindy and repetitive up till now. Once you get past the initial wow factor and so on the PvE side of things has been rather wanting, there are only so many trade runs, or so many RES NPCs you can kill, before it starts getting repetitive. The CGs have given that some context but PP can't come soon enough.

Yet whenever I have been engaged in what emergent game play we can get going its a heap of fun.. Problem with that is that the game doesn't reward you for doing it. I can battle it out with groups and players for hours on end, and its extremely entertaining, but it often costs to do it.

The mission system in the Beta looks a whole heap better than the original implementation and hopefully its something that can be embellished as time goes by which should sit as a platform for addition content. As for power-play we'll have to see how that works out but there does appear to be a grind element to it. It also helps to play with friends - just makes the game a lot more enjoyable. ;)
 
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Krait_79

Krait_79
A game is only a grind if you treat it as such. Take Elite. When i sit down to play I'm not thinking i must go and farm a RES so i can earn credits a quick as possible.

I immerse myself in the game and do whatever I'm in the mood for which isn't usually the quickest earner. Sometimes i hit RES sites if there is one near by, oftrn i drift through systems exploring and taking opportunity as it comes. I fly a Vulture but I'd like a Fer de Lance as it's one of the ships i always wanted to fly when i played the original. It's cost and the quickest way to get to it is not factored into my play style. I'll buy one whenever i happen to get the credits. No rush

Elite is my "chill out game". I don't play it as a desperate dash to get the biggest best thing.
 
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Tarman

Tarman
peteuplink said:
I find I get the most out of this game if I roleplay my way through it. I find that if I play this game as myself, Pete, sitting at home looking at it on a PC screen and just doing mission after mission, I get bored with the grind. But if I roleplay it, like I would a game of D&D, and think as my commander and how he may react in a given situation, I find I enjoy the game more and I can immerse myself in it better.

I hope that makes sense.
Click to expand...


It's always fun to play a game where you can throw yourself completely into a character, or use a personality (not always your actual one) to guide your play.

I do this with Champions Online, all my heroes are concept-first, and I find powers and kit that build into my concept instead of just minmaxing. My power armour char has other chest attributes being female, and the concept is built around power gauntlets and boots with a thin armour suit; so I'm not putting the Chest Beam power on there despite its statline.

My first playthrough with Skyrim, and I decided early on I wanted a char that was into wolves and wolf-things, and then played the game as an unofficial then official servant of Hircine. The already existing wolf-related gameplay jumped out more dramatically for me and it was a nice angle to use for style as well as substance.

I find that it's when these kinds of conceptual hooks aren't readily available or conjurable, or the mechanics underneath have some kind of glaring illusion-breaking flaw, that a game can go grindy. That happens to me with STO. I play the crap out of it like binge-watching a show so I get my Star Trek fix; then I realize that not only am I grinding, I'm SPEED grinding, because STO is on meth when it comes to levelup. STO at some almost measurable point for me loses its illusion all in one go and I can see the blatant hamster wheel underneath too clearly.
 

Arjin

Arjin
Tarman said:
It's always fun to play a game where you can throw yourself completely into a character, or use a personality (not always your actual one) to guide your play.

I do this with Champions Online, all my heroes are concept-first, and I find powers and kit that build into my concept instead of just minmaxing. My power armour char has other chest attributes being female, and the concept is built around power gauntlets and boots with a thin armour suit; so I'm not putting the Chest Beam power on there despite its statline.

My first playthrough with Skyrim, and I decided early on I wanted a char that was into wolves and wolf-things, and then played the game as an unofficial then official servant of Hircine. The already existing wolf-related gameplay jumped out more dramatically for me and it was a nice angle to use for style as well as substance.

I find that it's when these kinds of conceptual hooks aren't readily available or conjurable, or the mechanics underneath have some kind of glaring illusion-breaking flaw, that a game can go grindy. That happens to me with STO. I play the crap out of it like binge-watching a show so I get my Star Trek fix; then I realize that not only am I grinding, I'm SPEED grinding, because STO is on meth when it comes to levelup. STO at some almost measurable point for me loses its illusion all in one go and I can see the blatant hamster wheel underneath too clearly.
Click to expand...


Very true! STO is fun though!! but you are absolutely correct once you feel the hamster in the wheel you have to make a choice right then and there, ignore it and play because it's fun, or get so focused on the grind that it becomes a chore to you and you stop playing.

I think some players, not all, but a lot become solely focused on the grind, the word grind, and the actions involved they lose sight of the joy and experience a game can offer.
 

Nervous Energy

N
Well game is dead in the water come Autumn, new Xcom & Fallout 4

Nice try FD it really was but the X is really needs moving to the FUN spectrum of the chart once people have hit a Python there really is no point in going further.
 

Katkon

K
While I appreciate the "science" and "thinking" that went into your analysis, I'm afraid I disagree with your examples and conclusions for a number of reasons.

Let's take some of the examples. You cite GTA V Online as an example (heists picture) and Skyrim. Having played both I'll agree that the maps are big (though of course ED is "bigger").

GTA Online's map can be seen/explored very quickly - by virtue of speedy vehicles, and the missions are basically all pretty much the same: steal a car; kill someone; rob a bank; blow something up; steal some drugs (and even those are minor variations on each other). Moreover, to do well in GTA Online you must progress/rank up - and you can rank all the way up to 999 (!) apparently), though unlocks stop at around the 120 mark. So there's a clear incentive to keep progressing purely to access better stuff. Many will view this as a progression-oriented grind, made even more apparent by individual and crew ranked and publically-available scorecards.

A similar argument COULD be made for Skyrim: you keep playing to amass better weapons and improve your skills, which in turn enables you to look cooler, knock down your enemies faster... in turn, progress the game. Here, though, the focus isn't as strong as with GTA V, primarily as it's a singleplayer only experience. But once you're done with the (short) story, there's not a huge amount of value in replayability, which is where Online comes in.

Anyway, I think any game that isn't "fun" and involves any amount of "repetition" (which all games do - on one level or another) is labeled a "grind" these days. Personally, I'm having a blast. Have had for a year, and I have not been focused on ranking up or raking in credits in the slightest. That's the key, I think: player mindset!

I'd also argue that both Skyrim and GTA V are more "theme park" than Elite.
 

Bane Six Echo

Bane Six Echo
Nice graphic. Adding more games to the graph may help illustrate the point you're trying to make.

To "grind" definitely means to do something repetitive, but there's more to it than that in my opinion. The more important factor is whether or not you're having fun while doing it. If you're doing something repetitive, but having fun, you're playing the game. As soon as you're no longer having fun you're grinding.
 

CMDR Hagglebeard

CMDR Hagglebeard
I don't think ED can be classified, as everyone makes their own goals in the game. There is no one telling you to make money, only yourself. I can be forever happy in a Sidewinder, for example, as it can bounty hunt, pirate, trade, explore, whatever you want it to do. On top of that, it's nimble, reliable, and familiar. Also, I like earning small amounts of credits at one time. I don't like thinking of a credit as nothing, but each earned credit to be savoured, like a real life-on-the-edge starship pilot.
 

Krait_79

Krait_79
Nervous Energy said:
Well game is dead in the water come Autumn, new Xcom & Fallout 4

Nice try FD it really was but the X is really needs moving to the FUN spectrum of the chart once people have hit a Python there really is no point in going further.
Click to expand...

Pointless stating that seeing as fun is a matter of perspective. What might not be fun for you is probably fun for someone else and vice versa.
 

andyraptor

A
Nervous Energy said:
Well game is dead in the water come Autumn, new Xcom & Fallout 4

Nice try FD it really was but the X is really needs moving to the FUN spectrum of the chart once people have hit a Python there really is no point in going further.
Click to expand...



nah..... claiming a game is dead because of game releases coming later in the year is just complete naff... seen and heard that 3 and a half years ago with WoT/War Thunder... and both are still going strong

the whole chart thing is pure subjective fun... where you place your personal X is gong to apply to you only.... see the whole thing as a light hearted fun thing..... loosen up the weekend is near

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Arindor said:
ROFL! Nearly ruined my keyboard with my mouth full of coffee!
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:)

I aim to please ... even if my posts are sometimes too terse/abusive for non- Brits
 
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