Engineers It's not the destination, it's the journey

[mossfoot]

I had a similar thread before, but wanted to start a fresh one to elaborate on this basic concept.

I know you can't please everyone, nor can you expect people to play "your way" but it's also foolish to try and play a game in a way it is not designed to be played. The Engineers in a way is a case in point.

When the game first started you had people grinding their way to A rated pythons and Anacondas ASAP because their image of a place of fun relied on it. Get the best ship with the best weapons and the galaxy would be your oyster (then get there and complain there's nothing to do).

With the Engineers I quickly learned trying to grind to get the top mods you want in every field is not going to happen overnight--the unlocking of mods and the acquisition of materials and components prevents this by design. It's unlikely you'll be able to make a list of everything you need, actively find it, and go back to them to level up and unlock Tier 5 and get the mods you want in one fell swoop.

The Engineers are meant to be returned to again and again, and in my opinion it's best done with an eye on experimentation rather than dedicated focus.

While you're trying to get to Tier 5, let them experiment with your equipment in different ways? Want overcharged MCs but only have the mats for lightweight mounts? Try it out! You need to get on their good side anyway, letting them experiment on your ship more unlocks things faster anyway.

But you might as well take the time to appreciate those changes between trips to their bases. You might surprise yourself in finding out you can do more with Y mod than you intended to with X mod on your grand plan.

This is your chance to treat your ship - any ship - like your own Millenium Falcon or Serenity. Now you have a reason to maybe drop in on a unknown signal source or POIs you otherwise might have ignored, which will mean you'll end up seeing little events you otherwise would have flown by that might surprise you.

Some might treat it like a chore, or a grind, but this is where "the journey" comes back in. I'm the sort of player who, rather than demand a linear narrative from the game, lets the game tell a story through its encounters. The incentive to interact with the world more only adds to that for me and suddenly my game, which had been more focused and objective driven before, is now more meandering and interesting.

And that meandering element is strictly a "for now" thing. Right now I am playing the role of someone looking to upgrade their ship, looking for junk and taking missions that might help out. I feel like someone who's been given an old Mustang and is now hunting for all the right parts to make it into a kickass street racer.

But at some point I'll be satisfied, and there is still plenty more for me to do within the bubble. I plan on creating a section of space to call home and work on my rep with those local factions, which again will tie in with how I let the game tell a story through its encounters, especially when a system has events like war, famine or other problems.

And during that time I will naturally gather more "stuff" - once I'm full of mats, data and whatnot, then maybe it will be time to go back to the Engineers for a tune up. Or maybe even experiment (especially once I can store a component I'm happy with).

 

[DoctorDanny]

It says 'Blaze your own trail' on the box. That would imply a destination.

I'm a goal oriented player. I like to work towards something in the little time I have available to play.
The way the engineering mechanics work are extremely frustrating for a player like me.

For example I want to increase my FSD range. I've been 'searching' the right materials for the last couple of days.
Still missing one thingy for the level one FSD upgrade. In order to level up with my engineer I can choose to upgrade other parts of my ship.
Thus far I've succeeded in modding my shield resistencies, causing an increase in mass of the shield generator.
My jump range is now than before I visited the engineer.

I don't want to be forced into a certain play style in order to get the engineer mods. I don't like mining, I don't want to kill NPC trade vessels and I don't want to fit a wake scanner on my asp.
Still the game forces me to do exactly these things if I want to modify the systems that will benefit me as an explorer.

 

[OriginalBadBoy]

I don't want to be forced into a certain play style in order to get the engineer mods. I don't like mining, I don't want to kill NPC trade vessels and I don't want to fit a wake scanner on my asp.
Still the game forces me to do exactly these things if I want to modify the systems that will benefit me as an explorer.

Then don't get mods ... Whats the biggie?

If you are missing certain materials just play normally, you never know you might actually come across some of this stuff by accident more than anything else.

People are getting so hung up on of this its getting silly now.

 

[fuub]

You cant set goals with this design you have to ignore engis and come back when you are full of materials and see if you can do anything. Just lame gameplay

 

[Trafalgar Law]

You cant set goals with this design you have to ignore engis and come back when you are full of materials and see if you can do anything. Just lame gameplay

I agree. That would be fine if engineers were commonplace and you could just check every now and again in major stations in order to see if you can upgrade something, but not when you have to travel long distances to unlock the engineers.

 

[DoctorDanny]

I agree. That would be fine if engineers were commonplace and you could just check every now and again in major stations in order to see if you can upgrade something, but not when you have to travel long distances to unlock the engineers.

Not to mention the fact that you actually have to fly the ship that holds the module you want to upgrade to the engineer.
I had a very hard time upgrading my iEagle in Beta because it has hardly any space for all the modules you need to gather the materials (wake scanner, SRV, cargo space, etc.).
Poor design imo.

 

[mossfoot]

It says 'Blaze your own trail' on the box. That would imply a destination.

I'm a goal oriented player. I like to work towards something in the little time I have available to play.
The way the engineering mechanics work are extremely frustrating for a player like me.

For example I want to increase my FSD range. I've been 'searching' the right materials for the last couple of days.
Still missing one thingy for the level one FSD upgrade. In order to level up with my engineer I can choose to upgrade other parts of my ship.
Thus far I've succeeded in modding my shield resistencies, causing an increase in mass of the shield generator.
My jump range is now than before I visited the engineer.

I don't want to be forced into a certain play style in order to get the engineer mods. I don't like mining, I don't want to kill NPC trade vessels and I don't want to fit a wake scanner on my asp.
Still the game forces me to do exactly these things if I want to modify the systems that will benefit me as an explorer.

I don't know what to say, other than suggest one can play their own way and still have a broader perspective on gameplay if they want. I'm an explorer too (Elite, in a T6 no less) and I relish the idea of hunting for what I need to make my current ship jump farther (got my Clipper from 16LY to 20LY in multi-purpose mode with a Tier 3 FSD Boost). It just feels more like I'm earning the boost I get.

 

[Shanaeri]

OP. Totally right.. BUT with the RNG and crafting mechanic there is only one route on the journey to follow. For sure there are lots of different ways of getting the mats, but they all lead into the single track road of RNG.

So what are people to do if they don't like that single track? it's either do it or quit.

I have no issues with using RNG as A method of determining stats, so long as players have other routes of achieving what they are after(and no I don't mean I want it all at once and NOW) as the OP said it's a journey. I just want a few more routes to get to where I would like to go..

 

[DoctorDanny]

My frustration comes from the fact that I want to mod my FSD and that there's no reliable way to get the stuff I need for it.
I'll just have to keep on doing random activities and hope that I run into the materials I need.

To me, that is very unsatisfying gameplay. I want something in game (in this case the FSD upgrade) and I'm willing to 'work' for it.
The game just won't let me do that. I have to hope that I get the stuff I need.

 

[mossfoot]

My frustration comes from the fact that I want to mod my FSD and that there's no reliable way to get the stuff I need for it.
I'll just have to keep on doing random activities and hope that I run into the materials I need.

To me, that is very unsatisfying gameplay. I want something in game (in this case the FSD upgrade) and I'm willing to 'work' for it.
The game just won't let me do that. I have to hope that I get the stuff I need.

I have to admit, a truly reliable way would be unsatisying to me because it would just be a matter of going A B C Goodie! Having to hunt for them (either physically or looking for missions) feels more like scavenging.

It won't be long before there is a guide explaining the best ways to get what you need, in which case you'll cut down on you hunt time.

 

[xXR34P3RXx]

When the game first started you had people grinding their way to A rated pythons and Anacondas ASAP because their image of a place of fun relied on it. Get the best ship with the best weapons and the galaxy would be your oyster (then get there and complain there's nothing to do).

Thats because grinding to get the next best ship is the only sense of progression this game has right now. Why else do you mine/bounty hunt/smuggle/etc? to get that shiny new ship that you want, plus outfitting it. Maybe if Fdev added in actual end game content for people with high end ships, nobody would complain that there is nothing to do when you finally do get the ship you want.

With the Engineers I quickly learned trying to grind to get the top mods you want in every field is not going to happen overnight--the unlocking of mods and the acquisition of materials and components prevents this by design.

Yes, it's a bad design for how the game is right now.

It's unlikely you'll be able to make a list of everything you need, actively find it, and go back to them to level up and unlock Tier 5 and get the mods you want in one fell swoop.

As if the initial grind for the ship you want, plus outfitting it properly, wasn't time consuming enough.

The Engineers are meant to be returned to again and again, and in my opinion it's best done with an eye on experimentation rather than dedicated focus.

While you're trying to get to Tier 5, let them experiment with your equipment in different ways? Want overcharged MCs but only have the mats for lightweight mounts? Try it out! You need to get on their good side anyway, letting them experiment on your ship more unlocks things faster anyway.

The whole RNG aspect of crafting actively DISCOURAGES experimentation. When it takes a player 20+ hours to gather all the necessary Materials, just for the OPPORTUNITY to craft a mod for a build they have in mind, the player is not going to be so willing to "experiment" with different builds considering how long it took them to finally get the necessary mods for the build they want. Why would they throw all that work away just so they can try something new? and even then, it's not guaranteed to work out in their favor if the RNG gods don't happen to favor them that day.

 

[mossfoot]

The whole RNG aspect of crafting actively DISCOURAGES experimentation. When it takes a player 20+ hours to gather all the necessary Materials, just for the OPPORTUNITY to craft a mod for a build they have in mind, the player is not going to be so willing to "experiment" with different builds considering how long it took them to finally get the necessary mods for the build they want. Why would they throw all that work away just so they can try something new? and even then, it's not guaranteed to work out in their favor if the RNG gods don't happen to favor them that day.

what you want is a tier 5 upgrade on internal part X. To get there you're going to need to upgrade other things at lower levels and work your way up. Doesn't have to be specifically for the part you want, and you have lots of other mats and parts that will never be used for your dream upgrade. Therefore, you will be experimenting a lot on the way to get what you want.

 

[Dbrn47]

Then don't get mods ... Whats the biggie?

If you are missing certain materials just play normally, you never know you might actually come across some of this stuff by accident more than anything else.

People are getting so hung up on of this its getting silly now.

You don't just play normally and incidentally get certain materials. Sure, you might get more of the common types incidentally, but there are plenty of materials that you need to do something specific to get them. If you are a combat pilot and are looking for upgrades, you WILL need to take a break from combat to go down to a planet surface and prospect. You WILL need to seek out specific ships for some components. If you are someone who does everything all the time, sure, play normally. If you are someone who focuses on an activity though, you will need to break from the norm to go get what you need in order to upgrade what you want.

Stop trying to hand wave the grind away guys, it exists. It's fine, whatever, but don't pretend that you can just "play normally" and magically upgrade all the parts you'd like to upgrade. That only works for people capable of just putting blinders on and playing without goals.

 

[Hexcaliber]

I have given up trying explain to the folks whining, its obvious they simply do not understand the framework or aims of this game, and they want something entirely different.

At this point with all the childish threats of quitting the game I wish they would leave already. Despite their assertions to the contrary, the game will run along just fine without them and the forums will be better for it too.

 

[Eden von Ragnarok]

Yet someone else has deigned to come down from their high horse just to tell me I'm playing the game wrong.

 

[Sans Daring]

Yet someone else has deigned to come down from their high horse just to tell me I'm playing the game wrong.

Depends if you're happy playing the game as you are. If you are happy, no you're not.

But what he's saying is that regardless of how you play, the game has a definitive ideology as to how it wants to be played, thanks to its developers, obviously. If "you" are finding that the RNG is frustrating because you can't get that hot top mod you wanted and have to spend 20 hours getting multiple materials to stack the RNG, you are probably playing against the game intent. That's the point. The game's intent is to try and get you to explore and craft slowly. Little tweaks here and there, unpredictable tweaks given you are using unpredictable, eccentric engineers who are talented enough to ensure you don't explode, but aren't really sure what happens when you wedge that drive plate in there with those grid resistors, but they're sure it'll do something!

So no, no one is telling you you're playing it wrong. Only person who can say that is you. But I agree with the OP if one gets fixated on trying to make the game into what they want it to be (with Engineers as a guaranteed and fairly straightforward grind to massively powerful ship stats) then they are missing the point of what the Engineers are trying to inspire. You may feel that's a stupid idea, or an idea that doesn't interest you, but the idea is pretty clear. If you resist that ideology you will probably find yourself frustrated by what is there. Probably is the word - you might have a whale of a time. Who knows. No one is saying how you ought to play Elite, they're offering suggestions to accept what the game is trying to do rather than get angry that its not doing what you want it to do.

 

[mossfoot]

Depends if you're happy playing the game as you are. If you are happy, no you're not.

But what he's saying is that regardless of how you play, the game has a definitive ideology as to how it wants to be played, thanks to its developers, obviously. If "you" are finding that the RNG is frustrating because you can't get that hot top mod you wanted and have to spend 20 hours getting multiple materials to stack the RNG, you are probably playing against the game intent. That's the point. The game's intent is to try and get you to explore and craft slowly. Little tweaks here and there, unpredictable tweaks given you are using unpredictable, eccentric engineers who are talented enough to ensure you don't explode, but aren't really sure what happens when you wedge that drive plate in there with those grid resistors, but they're sure it'll do something!

So no, no one is telling you you're playing it wrong. Only person who can say that is you. But I agree with the OP if one gets fixated on trying to make the game into what they want it to be (with Engineers as a guaranteed and fairly straightforward grind to massively powerful ship stats) then they are missing the point of what the Engineers are trying to inspire. You may feel that's a stupid idea, or an idea that doesn't interest you, but the idea is pretty clear. If you resist that ideology you will probably find yourself frustrated by what is there. Probably is the word - you might have a whale of a time. Who knows. No one is saying how you ought to play Elite, they're offering suggestions to accept what the game is trying to do rather than get angry that its not doing what you want it to do.

yep. Exactly what my post was intending to get across.

 

[vizvayu]

Completely agree with the OP.
I believe the random modifications help to make the game richer, and also make every modded ship unique.
So many emotional responses about wasting time, but if you were really that short on time, you wouldn't be playing a computer game... what do you expect to acomplish? You get your A-rated Corvette in record time, then what? There are so many things to do in-game besides grinding for credits to get bigger ships faster and faster... recently I've been flying a Diamondback Scout, and it's amazingly fun! Even without any modded parts, it's fun, and that's the goal of a game.
I don't think the engineers' upgrades are supposed to be a treasure hunt, but maybe some kind of bonus for simply doing regular activities. If you see it that way, there's no reason to grind mindlessly.

 

[Dbrn47]

I don't think the engineers' upgrades are supposed to be a treasure hunt, but maybe some kind of bonus for simply doing regular activities. If you see it that way, there's no reason to grind mindlessly.

Yep, as a combat oriented player, mining and landing on planets for those specific mats is certainly in my list of regular activities and I don't need to grind them mindlessly at all for the upgrades I want. Totally spot on guys! I don't know what I was thinking. [rolleyes]

 

[mossfoot]

Yep, as a combat oriented player, mining and landing on planets for those specific mats is certainly in my list of regular activities and I don't need to grind them mindlessly at all for the upgrades I want. Totally spot on guys! I don't know what I was thinking. [rolleyes]

Or you could, you know, not rush it.

Most things are available as part of missions. Materials, Commodities, Data... you could keep an eye out for them there as you go about playing the way you want. Eventually, it will come. Or you can treat getting them early as a quest.

I'm not going to add "and get some satisfaction out of having earned it" or anything like that because clearly some people don't enjoy waiting, or grinding. Not everyone is going to be happy regardless of what FD do - make upgrades easy to max out and you'll have people complain about that too (to which I'm sure the counter-argument would be "then handicap yourselves, don't punish the rest of us," which is just the reverse argument to my original post).