It's time for a hard look at piracy.

[J. J. Musclethorpe]

To Whom It May Concern,

I truly appreciate the consideration that was given to my suggestion when it came to crime & punishment as it was posted here in this very forum some years ago. (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/284607-Murder-and-Consequence?p=4427268#post4427268)


I have waited long enough in hopes of seeing the focused feedback on piracy that was promised, but it has yet to come so I am here to post a list I have compiled over the years on how it can be improved. In most cases, the concept of these changes are simplistic.

Here is the list, in no particular order:

- Hatch Breakers dropping more cargo, much faster.


- Collector limpets being usable at full speed or even boosting.


- Having a way to bring a driveless ship to a stop. FD always said they wanted a functionality for the FSD Interdictor in low space, this would be the perfect opportunity. Drive health percentages of greater than 1% needed to break the hold. The purpose of the 1% figure being that it would prevent chain reboot/repairing, while rewarding those that carry an AFMU. *Weapons can be rendered non-operational while the hold is in effect*


- Piracy preset "Quick Comms". Customizable would be nice, but even presets of 25/50/75/100 percent would do.


- Notification on target initiating a High Jump versus a Low Jump.


- Alert if a target has initiated a "graceful" logout. We parlay in "good faith" many times only to have people log out as we negotiate.


- Community Goal NPC's carrying CG commodities.


- The Cargo Hatch needs to release all cargo at 0%. It can be very difficult to hit on a rolling target, this should be rewarded.


- NPC interaction demanding cargo percentage. Success is based off of RNG modified by player combat rank versus NPC combat rank.


- Bring back the profitability of Rare Trading.


- Make Cargo on Megaships and at Installations worth stealing.


- Not getting automatically wanted when stealing data from Megaships, even while silent running.

- Not automatically being detected in the exclusion zone at Installations while silent running.


- Being able to sell non-stolen goods when at a CG black market. Sometimes when we pirate at a CG, traders will abandon their cargo. We currently have no way to sell this legitimately to the CG, unlike cargo marked as stolen.


- Piracy Mission payouts are abyssmal for the effort level. There was a time when they were respectable. (https://imgur.com/6bgPNjn)


- If the extraneous cargo bug cannot be fixed (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/258603-Piracy-Mission-Bug) then at least have the mission cargo ejected first whenever hatch breaking.


Thank you for your time, and to my pirate brothers and sisters, please feel free to add to this list.

 

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

As an NPC pirate, I'm annoyed by the "Siphon complete" message from the lone hatch breaker. Every player I've met online who I've tried to teach pirating keeps thinking that's it, no more cargo and I have to explain, no, that' just that one hatch breaker that is complete. There is more cargo to be had. You fire another, then another, and once you hear "Cargo hold empty" then you're done. It seems most players don't know this. It's ridiculous we get this big blue "Siphon complete" for just one hatch breaker, but nothing for when the cargo hold is truly empty.

As lucrative as NPC piracy is right now, the method in which I take the cargo is truly immersion breaking. I mean, why is the NPC hanging around for me to hatch break over and over again? I really like one of your suggestions - I would love for the hatch breakers to dump more cargo. 25%? 50%? then this is done while they are running. They dump the cargo and escape. I shouldn't have to fire off 15 hatch breakers to deplete a T7 and there's no way he should stick around while I milk him.

Maybe a pirate specific module that disables the ship for a limited time. Just enough time to pop a couple of hatch breakers. The trade off being, the pirate ship, is unable to FSD jump for a short period of time (longer cool down than the victim) after using the pirating module. Maybe it disables weapons for a short period on both ships or something because you know such a module would be used just to grief players for the lulz instead of actual pirating. Just spit balling here as I love pirating. Would love to make the jump to pirating humans, but PS4 players are few and far between outside of Shinrarta. Even CG's seem to have dried up.

 

[Nova McCool]

Adding to the list: Cargo being picked up by limpet not showing up in your cargo hold. I've had the problem when pirating another player (knock on wood) not NPC

I'm also annoyed by the "Siphon complete" message, you got a great ideal Captain Jack

 

[Capn Murica]

- Having a way to bring a driveless ship to a stop. FD always said they wanted a functionality for the FSD Interdictor in low space, this would be the perfect opportunity. Drive health percentages of greater than 1% needed to break the hold. The purpose of the 1% figure being that it would prevent chain reboot/repairing, while rewarding those that carry an AFMU. *Weapons can be rendered non-operational while the hold is in effect*

This would be the biggest improvement. Need some way to "harpoon" a drifting ship, like real pirates did on the high seas.

"Streaming cargo" is a huge issue when hatchbreaking a target after you knocked out the drives. Cargo just dumps out slowly in clumps of 4 canisters and gets streamed out behind the target as it tumbles away at whatever speed it last boosted to. Collectors aren't fast nor efficient enough to collect most of it so it just goes to waste, which isn't good for either party. Very frustrating.

 

[Chaparral]

This would be the biggest improvement. Need some way to "harpoon" a drifting ship, like real pirates did on the high seas.

"Streaming cargo" is a huge issue when hatchbreaking a target after you knocked out the drives. Cargo just dumps out slowly in clumps of 4 canisters and gets streamed out behind the target as it tumbles away at whatever speed it last boosted to. Collectors aren't fast nor efficient enough to collect most of it so it just goes to waste, which isn't good for either party. Very frustrating.

I've suggested this many times before. A tether mechanic might allow for continuous cargo transfer at a set rate based on tether class. Tether disconnect should take time, so if you're still hooked up when the cops show, it could put you in real trouble.

 

[J. J. Musclethorpe]

Need some way to "harpoon" a drifting ship, like real pirates did on the high seas.

I am for any way to bring them to a stop Cap, but I am against us needing yet another module to do it. They had stated in the past they would consider giving the FSD Interdictor a use in low space, and seeing as how it sorta manipulates gravity already, this would be a great way to implement this without us having to equip something else.

 

[Lateralus]

snip

Great post, indeed piracy needs looking at because it's never really had more development than hatch-breakers and megaships (PvE only).

Having a way to bring a driveless ship to a stop. FD always said they wanted a functionality for the FSD Interdictor in low space, this would be the perfect opportunity. Drive health percentages of greater than 1% needed to break the hold. The purpose of the 1% figure being that it would prevent chain reboot/repairing, while rewarding those that carry an AFMU. *Weapons can be rendered non-operational while the hold is in effect*

This is a key suggestion.. the fact you cannot stop a drifting trader with 0% drives makes piracy a frustrating experience. Giving the interdictor this functionality would be a great solution.

Alert if a target has initiated a "graceful" logout. We parlay in "good faith" many times only to have people log out as we negotiate.

This. My suggestion would be that if a target has been interdicted, the interdicting player gets a system notification if the target player is logging out (much like when we're notified about our friends logging in or out). Also, 15 seconds is too short a time... Please increase to 30 seconds like most other mmo games.

Another problem with PvP piracy is locating player hotspots. We need a traffic report galaxy map overlay to see where the players are.. Suggestion thread here.

 

[SushiCW]

Good list. My comments on some of these:

- Hatch Breakers dropping more cargo, much faster.

I actually think hatchbreakers are just fine as-is. They feel just about right given that they go through shields now and now that they seem to have fixed the phantom cargo bug. Yes, if you use them on a fleeing target you'll not get a ton of cargo before they wake and it'll be a bit spread out. But I'm fine with bigger takes requiring victim cooperation or disabling them first.

- Collector limpets being usable at full speed or even boosting.

See above, I think they're fine.

- Having a way to bring a driveless ship to a stop. FD always said they wanted a functionality for the FSD Interdictor in low space, this would be the perfect opportunity.

Yes please! For myself, I've wondered if drag munitions (like you can get on seekers) should actually apply a braking effect, making them useful both for slowing a ship and making the special effect not completely neutered by FA-off. But I also like the idea of using the interdictor to somehow do this.

- The Cargo Hatch needs to release all cargo at 0%. It can be very difficult to hit on a rolling target, this should be rewarded.

This seems overly punitive to traders. I don't think it makes sense for hundreds of tons of cargo to instantly come flying out.

What seems more interesting to me is to overhaul the cargo hatch mechanic so that once you're below 80% integrity, there's a gradually increasing chance of losing cargo during hard maneuvers (boosting, sharp changes in direction). This means that you can get cargo by damaging the hatch and then chasing the target for a bit, and on the other end you've now got an interesting choice between trying to manuever to avoid trouble and trying to avoid spilling your cargo through a leaky hatch.

- NPC interaction demanding cargo percentage. Success is based off of RNG modified by player combat rank versus NPC combat rank.

We need the ability to talk to NPCs for more than just cargo, but certainly this is one valid use case.

- Make Cargo on Megaships and at Installations worth stealing.

Sometimes it is, I've found LTDs there. I do think it should be easier to find high-value cargo, preferably by seeking out more heavily guarded locations. The security /danger level of the megaship should directly correlate with the value of the cargo there is to steal, and this security/danger level should be determinable from supercruise.

- Being able to sell non-stolen goods when at a CG black market. Sometimes when we pirate at a CG, traders will abandon their cargo. We currently have no way to sell this legitimately to the CG, unlike cargo marked as stolen.

Very much yes please! This is an annoying gap right now. I feel like I need to reverse-launder my snatched cargo which is just plain wrong.

- If the extraneous cargo bug cannot be fixed (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/258603-Piracy-Mission-Bug) then at least have the mission cargo ejected first whenever hatch breaking.

That seems sensible.



Now, for my own addition: IMHO the single biggest problem with PvP piracy is that everyone is too spread out. More than nitty-gritty mechanics, we need to get traders/miners & pirates (and bounty hunters) concentrated in fewer systems. I actually just made a suggestion post about this: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...quot-super-boom-quot-for-specific-commodities

To quote myself:

For every commodity, there should always be a small handful (less than five) of systems where it can be sold for a really amazing price. Galnet should publish a "super-boom" report with at least one system for each commodity. These can get refreshed once a week.


What this accomplishes:
* Makes piracy better by concentrating the action to fewer systems, increasing the odds of finding victims.
* Adds a proper risk/reward factor back to player piracy: sure, you can sell in the hot system, but is it worth the extra risk? (If someone really doesn't find that risk fun, they just stay out of open or accept smaller but safer profits).
* Reduces the dependency on external tools for finding hotspot systems.


Why this is better than what we have now:
The list of "hotspot" systems is currently too long for a given commodity. e.g. Void Opals have dozens of locations selling at about the same maxed-out price. The trader-pirate-bountyhunter ecosystem in Elite has only ever worked properly when the action is concentrated to a very small number of systems, such as when the Void Opal rush first started or back in the days of the New Caribbean when rare goods traders (and pirates and bounty hunters) all flocked to the Lave cluster.

It would also be great for players to not have to use external tools in order to get the most from the game. This wouldn't solve that entirely, but having a short published list of hotspots for the very best profits would reduce the dependence.


-------------------------
Original credit for this idea goes to Bigmaec: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...-worth-while?p=7416184&viewfull=1#post7416184

 

[CMDR Hagglebeard]

I actually think hatchbreakers are just fine as-is. They feel just about right given that they go through shields now and now that they seem to have fixed the phantom cargo bug. Yes, if you use them on a fleeing target you'll not get a ton of cargo before they wake and it'll be a bit spread out. But I'm fine with bigger takes requiring victim cooperation or disabling them first.

I agree. Hatchbreakers could be the smash-n-grab tool, used by smaller vessels like Sidewinders and Cobras, and for anyone that only needs to steal a very small amount of cargo, while some other method could be used to steal larger amounts of cargo.

This other method could be anything - reverse-engineered 'goid tractor beams, ship-to-ship docking, or, er... something else?

 

[dekot]

I thought it was possible to avoid wanted status while silent running and hacking data off megaships now. Or is that just for installations?

 

[Icepaw]

I 100% would back the idea of a grapple hook or tractor beam implemented to keep ships with 0% drive from just tumbling away from us. It makes the process incredibly irritating.

I also feel that, too keep with immersion and realism that if a cargo hatch is dropped to 0% it should dump the cargo, that's what would happen in reality, the vacuum created by the breach would suck cargo out.

I also would like an interaction option with NPC ships to demand cargo in exchange for not killing them, like if you drop them below 25% and/or disable their FSD's then they engage in parlay?

Just some thoughts on it. 100% on board with the grapple hook though, please. Or at the vary least if you drop them to 1%-4% on thrusters they are only able to fire stabilization thrusters and slow down to a stop.

 

[Rebel Yell]

- Having a way to bring a driveless ship to a stop. FD always said they wanted a functionality for the FSD Interdictor in low space, this would be the perfect opportunity. Drive health percentages of greater than 1% needed to break the hold. The purpose of the 1% figure being that it would prevent chain reboot/repairing, while rewarding those that carry an AFMU. Weapons can be rendered non-operational while the hold is in effect

Aye!

- Piracy preset "Quick Comms". Customizable would be nice, but even presets of 25/50/75/100 percent would do.

Aye! On XBOX we 'ave fingars crippled when usin' the chatpad! Need presets... and also 'd bettar to 'ave an "interdiction preset" when going aftar a Captn't a message like "warning: pirate interdiction decteded" so the Capt'n already know we 're there fer the booty and not to shotta him/her and scuttle the ship.

- Notification on target initiating a High Jump versus a Low Jump.

Sumtimes we 'now it... but aye!

- Alert if a target has initiated a "graceful" logout. We parlay in "good faith" many times only to have people log out as we negotiate.

Aye! Ya not enouf nice comrade, befoar me send kiss and charm then parely 'bout the booty.

- The Cargo Hatch needs to release all cargo at 0%. It can be very difficult to hit on a rolling target, this should be rewarded

Ohhh dear, AYE!

- Bring back the profitability of Rare Trading.

Aye! In open, bettar rewards! So we can rob 'em!

 

[Irios]

I fully agree that the game mechanics surrounding piracy need some serious attention.

Especially features concerning player-to-player interaction need some proper revamping.

Signalling another player in-game while in midst of an interdiction or an attack is like a game of chance. Usually they won't notice there's an incoming hail at all, because it's either gone in all the noise (audio) from the game, or simply because it's not visible enough. And if they finally notice it, it's too cumbersome to deal with because they are too stressed out from being interdicted or attacked.

The chat/comms panel needs some serious rethinking. Notifications on incoming messages and voice chat needs to be large and visible. And when there is an incoming message from an attacker/aggressor, it needs to be show onscreen, even if that "channel" is not active. This is very important to make it easier for both sides of an event like this.

And to be honest, it would be nice if a feature that allowed voice chat from the interdictor to be automatically accepted and played back - so the interdictee can hear the incoming voice hail from the get go. Give us a game setting toggle that automatically allows the voice chat to be enabled upon an interdiction (or maybe on any aggressive act, like an attack). I do realize a lot of players do not feel comfortable using voice chat (and that's perfectly fine), but this way they can at least hear incoming voice chat. "This is you attacker, you need to come to a full stop without hardpoints deployed. Do not attempt to run. Do a full roll if you understand."

 

[dekot]

I fully agree that the game mechanics surrounding piracy need some serious attention.

Especially features concerning player-to-player interaction need some proper revamping.

Signalling another player in-game while in midst of an interdiction or an attack is like a game of chance. Usually they won't notice there's an incoming hail at all, because it's either gone in all the noise (audio) from the game, or simply because it's not visible enough. And if they finally notice it, it's too cumbersome to deal with because they are too stressed out from being interdicted or attacked.

The chat/comms panel needs some serious rethinking. Notifications on incoming messages and voice chat needs to be large and visible. And when there is an incoming message from an attacker/aggressor, it needs to be show onscreen, even if that "channel" is not active. This is very important to make it easier for both sides of an event like this.

And to be honest, it would be nice if a feature that allowed voice chat from the interdictor to be automatically accepted and played back - so the interdictee can hear the incoming voice hail from the get go. Give us a game setting toggle that automatically allows the voice chat to be enabled upon an interdiction (or maybe on any aggressive act, like an attack). I do realize a lot of players do not feel comfortable using voice chat (and that's perfectly fine), but this way they can at least hear incoming voice chat. "This is you attacker, you need to come to a full stop without hardpoints deployed. Do not attempt to run. Do a full roll if you understand."

People don't submit not because they can't read chat, they don't submit because there are no real consequences to dying. PvE piracy is broken because npc's are bugged and the mechanics are just broken, PvP piracy is a different story, it's not the mechanics that are broken, it's the entire game design surrounding it. If ship loss was handled like, let's say eve, then a lot more people would start listening to piracy demands. But even in eve, there were people who would fight it out no matter what.

 

[Marra Morgan]

To Whom It May Concern,

I truly appreciate the consideration that was given to my suggestion when it came to crime & punishment as it was posted here in this very forum some years ago. (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/284607-Murder-and-Consequence?p=4427268#post4427268)


I have waited long enough in hopes of seeing the focused feedback on piracy that was promised, but it has yet to come so I am here to post a list I have compiled over the years on how it can be improved. In most cases, the concept of these changes are simplistic.

Here is the list, in no particular order:

- Hatch Breakers dropping more cargo, much faster.


- Collector limpets being usable at full speed or even boosting.


- Having a way to bring a driveless ship to a stop. FD always said they wanted a functionality for the FSD Interdictor in low space, this would be the perfect opportunity. Drive health percentages of greater than 1% needed to break the hold. The purpose of the 1% figure being that it would prevent chain reboot/repairing, while rewarding those that carry an AFMU. *Weapons can be rendered non-operational while the hold is in effect*


- Piracy preset "Quick Comms". Customizable would be nice, but even presets of 25/50/75/100 percent would do.


- Notification on target initiating a High Jump versus a Low Jump.


- Alert if a target has initiated a "graceful" logout. We parlay in "good faith" many times only to have people log out as we negotiate.


- Community Goal NPC's carrying CG commodities.


- The Cargo Hatch needs to release all cargo at 0%. It can be very difficult to hit on a rolling target, this should be rewarded.


- NPC interaction demanding cargo percentage. Success is based off of RNG modified by player combat rank versus NPC combat rank.


- Bring back the profitability of Rare Trading.


- Make Cargo on Megaships and at Installations worth stealing.


- Not getting automatically wanted when stealing data from Megaships, even while silent running.

- Not automatically being detected in the exclusion zone at Installations while silent running.


- Being able to sell non-stolen goods when at a CG black market. Sometimes when we pirate at a CG, traders will abandon their cargo. We currently have no way to sell this legitimately to the CG, unlike cargo marked as stolen.


- Piracy Mission payouts are abyssmal for the effort level. There was a time when they were respectable. (https://imgur.com/6bgPNjn)


- If the extraneous cargo bug cannot be fixed (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/258603-Piracy-Mission-Bug) then at least have the mission cargo ejected first whenever hatch breaking.


Thank you for your time, and to my pirate brothers and sisters, please feel free to add to this list.

All great suggestions!

+1

 

[Ouberos]

Ship to ship NPC Piracy is pointless at the minute.

There are several You tube guides which detail the shield tank method of exploiting Diamond miners but lets face it this has reduced Piracy to the level where you are rewarded for sitting still and doing nothing but launch limpets. There is no point attempting to knock out its drives and no point taking out its plant. The entire gameplay mechanic has been reduced to the lowest common denominator of pressing two buttons.

Recently I have been tackling the Private courier service ships for much lower pay outs but more challenging gameplay. They carry Pointdefence or ECM and are mostly Elite so knocking these out first is really hard. I have a method and have had success. However, they suffer from the same bugs as Diamond miners with their FSD. If you follow them over multiple systems and damage them they will high wake almost before the interdiction is over.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/480325-Private-Courier-Service-no-FSD-cool-down

At the bottom of the bug report I have linked the merged thread which details this same bug going back to 2016.

With the whole 2020 update thing in place I can't see this bug ever being resolved. This is very frustrating becuase If I wanted to I could sit still and make gazillions by pressing two buttons but because I am actually trying to find some entertainment and challenge my skill in the game I am punished. The long standing nature of this bug makes me suspect that fleshing out Piracy is never going to be a priority.

Which is a bit depressing.

On the plus side I did rob a passing player of some Diamonds the other night.

 

[SharkBiscuit]

Ship to ship NPC Piracy is pointless at the minute.

There are several You tube guides which detail the shield tank method of exploiting Diamond miners but lets face it this has reduced Piracy to the level where you are rewarded for sitting still and doing nothing but launch limpets. There is no point attempting to knock out its drives and no point taking out its plant. The entire gameplay mechanic has been reduced to the lowest common denominator of pressing two buttons.

Recently I have been tackling the Private courier service ships for much lower pay outs but more challenging gameplay. They carry Pointdefence or ECM and are mostly Elite so knocking these out first is really hard. I have a method and have had success. However, they suffer from the same bugs as Diamond miners with their FSD. If you follow them over multiple systems and damage them they will high wake almost before the interdiction is over.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/480325-Private-Courier-Service-no-FSD-cool-down

At the bottom of the bug report I have linked the merged thread which details this same bug going back to 2016.

With the whole 2020 update thing in place I can't see this bug ever being resolved. This is very frustrating becuase If I wanted to I could sit still and make gazillions by pressing two buttons but because I am actually trying to find some entertainment and challenge my skill in the game I am punished. The long standing nature of this bug makes me suspect that fleshing out Piracy is never going to be a priority.

Which is a bit depressing.

On the plus side I did rob a passing player of some Diamonds the other night.

Totally agree. I've heard there's a technique to stop a ship involving Packhounds. Not something I've unlocked yet, but maybe one day I will. In the meantime, I've had to park the Piracy career. ahrrrrrr.

Incidentally, I'd love to see how Fdev complete a "Liberate" mission. They would be a perfect use-case for Piracy techniques, but no chance. Have to tank it.

 

[Rebel Yell]

I've had to park the Piracy career. ahrrrrrr.

Try PvP piracy, ya will nevar regret... me sure of it.

 

[SteelDark]

Newish player here. Really, really have to come up with a alternative to "bumping". I have wasted hours with multiple attempts at slowing via this method and frankly I am just going to park the ship till they get this fixed. Seems broken to me.

 

[Amanojaku]

This is a key suggestion.. the fact you cannot stop a drifting trader with 0% drives makes piracy a frustrating experience. Giving the interdictor this functionality would be a great solution.

I want frickin' pirates with frickin' tractor beams.