Hardware & Technical 'Joystick Curves' software help - x52 Pro

[Ulrich Wolfe]

I am currently making the transition between FA toggle and full FA off, but I am having problems configuring 3rd party software to make precision aiming after boost-turn drift easier.

Please, if you have no experience doing this sort of thing, then don't read any further.


The problem:
I am having issues with the diagonal axis X/Y. On the test screen the x52 Pro physical input is based on a circular dead zone, but the virtual joystick is based on a square dead zone. This means the software is applying the curve multiplier from the corner of a square, rather than the equidistant edge of a circle. This causes the diagonal inputs to have approximately half the value they should have - when moving the physical joystick in a circle, the virtual joystick travels in a 4-pointed star.

How did you resolve this?

 

[Chris Simon]

It's been a while since I had the X52Pro.
This is probably the major flaw of the joystick - the circular retention mean that you simply can't reach the max control input in the corners (or rather where the corners should have been).
When I was setting up the sensitivity, I basically left it as linear as possible - That way you don't rob yourself of too much input value - and only set the curves slightly softer around the centre to allow for more precise aiming with F/A off.
But the bottom line is - you can't resolve it. When you're applying the max input in both X and Y axis (i.e. stick in the "corner"), you're really applying only about 80% of the control input that the real maximum along the single axis. And applying any kind of softer curve will only worsen the issue.

 

[Ulrich Wolfe]

Thanks for your reply.

I must admit that leaves me brutally disappointed. I've been trying to resolve this for days... Oh well. I like the x52 in most other regards and it would be a shame to replace it over something so trivial, even if I could afford to do so...

Were you able to reach a happy medium with your linear curves, or was that the reason you no longer use the x52? I seem to need most adjustment at the narrow input end, so small adjustments to center of the curve might not be enough.

 

[Morbad]

But the bottom line is - you can't resolve it. When you're applying the max input in both X and Y axis (i.e. stick in the "corner"), you're really applying only about 80% of the control input that the real maximum along the single axis.

You can calibrate it so that you don't exceed the maximum raw x/y values that the corners can reach. Measure them, then when you calibrate, do no exceed that amount when it tells you to push the stick all the way in the corresponding direction.

I don't know if this will address the OP's issue, but it will compensate for the corners not being recognized as maximum simultaneous x+y values.

 

[Chris Simon]

You mean like for example making a square cardboard cut-out that touches the retention circle in the corners, making is so the last 20% of the movement in either axis are ignored?
Interesting idea.

That could only be done with potentiometers, no? If you then just slam the stick to its true reach, the hall sensor will re-callibrate itself to the new maximum.

 

[Morbad]

You mean like for example making a square cardboard cut-out that touches the retention circle in the corners, making is so the last 20% of the movement in either axis are ignored?
Interesting idea.

That could only be done with potentiometers, no? If you then just slam the stick to its true reach, the hall sensor will re-callibrate itself to the new maximum.

Don't need a cut out, just something that lists the raw input values (Windows does this, as do most 3rd party stick software packages, though it's been a while since I've used Saitek's stuff). Doesn't require pots either, as even hall effect sensors will read a value from 0 to whatever the max value for the sensor is, and you can calibrate to a smaller range. When the calibration tool calls for you to hold the stick at a maximum position, you just move it to the limit of the diagonal and no further, then confirm that as the range limit for the axis.

 

[the100thmonkey]

I just checked, and while the central retainer is circular on the outside, the actual gimbal mechanism is square, on mine at least. I no longer use it (because it's generally a poor stick), but that was never an issue for me flying FA-off anyway. Indeed, it's an inevitable consequence of having a curve applied to the axes - if you have 100% axis applied to X, but only 50% axis applied to Y, there will be a divider on the Y axis that reduces the virtual output. That's what the program does.

The Joystick Curves program itself is also rather janky - it's old and uses an unreasonable amount of CPU for what it does. It doesn't update values often enough either. I think it's running at about 10Hz.

Try Joystick Gremlin instead. It's much more powerful, and doesn't snack on CPU cycles quite so much.

*edit*
If you actually do have a circular gimbal, you should be able to use Joystick Gremlin to amplify the response so that 80% input will be translated to 100% output, while retaining a divider towards the centre. It will take some getting used to, I think, but that's the price of a bad stick - you have to work around its limitations.

 

[racer1]

I just checked, and while the central retainer is circular on the outside, the actual gimbal mechanism is square, on mine at least. I no longer use it (because it's generally a poor stick), but that was never an issue for me flying FA-off anyway. Indeed, it's an inevitable consequence of having a curve applied to the axes - if you have 100% axis applied to X, but only 50% axis applied to Y, there will be a divider on the Y axis that reduces the virtual output. That's what the program does.

The Joystick Curves program itself is also rather janky - it's old and uses an unreasonable amount of CPU for what it does. It doesn't update values often enough either. I think it's running at about 10Hz.

Try Joystick Gremlin instead. It's much more powerful, and doesn't snack on CPU cycles quite so much.

*edit*
If you actually do have a circular gimbal, you should be able to use Joystick Gremlin to amplify the response so that 80% input will be translated to 100% output, while retaining a divider towards the centre. It will take some getting used to, I think, but that's the price of a bad stick - you have to work around its limitations.

My X52 also has a square gimbal. I don't recall having an issue like the OP when I set up joystick curves.

 

[Chris Simon]

Thanks for your reply.

I must admit that leaves me brutally disappointed. I've been trying to resolve this for days... Oh well. I like the x52 in most other regards and it would be a shame to replace it over something so trivial, even if I could afford to do so...

Were you able to reach a happy medium with your linear curves, or was that the reason you no longer use the x52? I seem to need most adjustment at the narrow input end, so small adjustments to center of the curve might not be enough.

(sorry missed your reply)
Yes, I was happy to use it with just slightly lowered sensitivity around the centre. You will see that whatever you set it to, in the end, you will simply learn to fly with it. So don't overdo it in settings - flying is more important.
The reason I no longer have the X52 is that it broke after about two years (out of warranty). But before that, I was quite happy with it.

The other guys here have some really nice ideas, too, so have fun with the tuning.

 

[Ulrich Wolfe]

(sorry missed your reply)
Yes, I was happy to use it with just slightly lowered sensitivity around the centre. You will see that whatever you set it to, in the end, you will simply learn to fly with it. So don't overdo it in settings - flying is more important.
The reason I no longer have the X52 is that it broke after about two years (out of warranty). But before that, I was quite happy with it.

You missed my reply because I am new to this forum and the overzealous 'moderator' blocks all my posts until they have been checked out. I am not even sure this post will show up today, either. :S

Thanks again for replying. I think you're right, just flying is more important, and maybe ship choice... I spent last night flying a FGS exclusively with FA off (including landings), and found it much easier in a sluggish ship. In the end I made no changes at all to the stick. I am still struggling with micro adjustments to aiming/time on target, but I think it's doable. There is a light at the end of this x52 Pro tunnel.

Morbad
"You can calibrate it so that you don't exceed the maximum raw x/y values that the corners can reach. Measure them, then when you calibrate, do no exceed that amount when it tells you to push the stick all the way in the corresponding direction."

I tried following your advice because that sounds like an obvious solution (why didnt I think of that!), however in practise it proved not so easy to do. I couldn't find a way of setting absolute values and just restricting the stick travel on the calibrate screen had unexpected results. I am not very good with this sort of thing, to be honest. Thanks for your tip though.

the100thmonkey
"Try Joystick Gremlin instead. It's much more powerful, and doesn't snack on CPU cycles quite so much."

I tried Joystick Gremlin but I found it quite counterintuitive to use (or maybe I am just too old and stupid). The problems I had with Joystick Curves were even more apparent, and I couldn't figure out how to use the more advanced tools.

 

[Chris Simon]

You missed my reply because I am new to this forum and the overzealous 'moderator' blocks all my posts until they have been checked out. I am not even sure this post will show up today, either. :S

Thanks again for replying. I think you're right, just flying is more important, and maybe ship choice... I spent last night flying a FGS exclusively with FA off (including landings), and found it much easier in a sluggish ship. In the end I made no changes at all to the stick. I am still struggling with micro adjustments to aiming/time on target, but I think it's doable. There is a light at the end of this x52 Pro tunnel.

Morbad
"You can calibrate it so that you don't exceed the maximum raw x/y values that the corners can reach. Measure them, then when you calibrate, do no exceed that amount when it tells you to push the stick all the way in the corresponding direction."

I tried following your advice because that sounds like an obvious solution (why didnt I think of that!), however in practise it proved not so easy to do. I couldn't find a way of setting absolute values and just restricting the stick travel on the calibrate screen had unexpected results. I am not very good with this sort of thing, to be honest. Thanks for your tip though.

the100thmonkey
"Try Joystick Gremlin instead. It's much more powerful, and doesn't snack on CPU cycles quite so much."

I tried Joystick Gremlin but I found it quite counterintuitive to use (or maybe I am just too old and stupid). The problems I had with Joystick Curves were even more apparent, and I couldn't figure out how to use the more advanced tools.

Rep for sticking with it.
It took me about two weeks to become somewhat proficient with F/A off. So don't worry. After you know what exactly it is you need from the joystick, you can always tweak later.