Just remember video games are Art. and Devs are artists

[Sonoskay]

There Is something that I feel is failed to be said a lot, An idea that seems too prevalent among people who do no eat breath and live video games.

Games are art. Devs are artists, and a game company has the mixed interest of Loving and making the best art they can , and being forced to make money off it. For good or Ill, this is what is needed for them top continue making their art. And sometimes They need to make calls that will allow them to Continue to make their art to the best of their abilities.

Some people have complained that PP is not what they wanted. And that it should have been Completely different. or that PP should have came after an Overhaul to the underlying Simulation, and expanded on the building blocks they already have. Instead of introducing something new..

here is the point i want to make. If this was as easy as most make it sound, don't you think they would have done that already? This is their baby we are talking about. If they could. They would Make the AI brilliant, Every mission interesting, and Every profession fulfilling. They WANT their game to be the best it can, You have to understand the bottom line for a company that loves making games, but also needs to make money needs to do what is practical, and keep them making money, not perfecting something that would eat up more time, more money, and generate very little.

This applies to the announcement about a few exclusive bits for xbone. When faced with his Oprotunity , this will allow you to do better for the game over all, And hopefully Allow them to continue the project for a long time.

Be critical if you want. Just Understand that they care about this game probably more than you do. You don't dedicate hundreds of hours into a project that demands so much head ache and Offers so little to you.

Also understand that if they didn't give a damn about games, they wouldn't be making them. there are many many better ways to make money with the skills a dev has that would require less from them.

Cut them some slack. This is not EA, Activison, or any other big publisher. they do not hate you, they do not want to rob you, They want to make a game they love.

Anyway This is likely the last you will see of me until things cool down. Too many people being overly critical of Frontier right now. and it makes enjoying the game with fellow players on the forums almost impossible.

 

[Sysmon]

Hear! Hear! Go enjoy the game. The forums will cool off eventually.

S

 

[Karakhian]

I'm with you on this.

I'm no game developer. I don't know how Frontier have put together a game like this - and I'd never pretend that I could do better. I'm still bowled over, after months. 1:1 scale Milky Way? 400 billion stars? Explorable? What, all of them? And then the visuals, the sound, the combat, the AI... there's enough here already that it's pretty much killed all other games for me for the last six months. I love the experience of flying your ship to an almost visceral degree, and I love taking jobs here and there and just making my way, gaining rep with minor factions. And since release there's been constant free updates. I remember the first time I went to Sol and looked down on Earth in-game at where I was sitting playing the game in reality. And then looked around and saw Orion and his belt, and the Plough overhead. I think I can safely say I've never played any game like this in my life.

I was an early backer, and it was explained clearly back then in dev videos and posts that it would take time to deliver the bigger extra planned things like walking in stations and ships, planetary landings, EVA, walking on planets... and also it was clearly stated that these would be paid expansions, right from the start. I believe it was said that it would be about at least a year down the road after release, to ensure it was done properly. If done properly means to the same standard that they created the galaxy to fly your ship around in, then I want them to take whatever time they need. For me, everything from this moment is gravy. I paid for the game, and now I've had more gameplay out of it than any other game I've ever played already.

The sheer love invested in the creation of this game stands out from every element. Does it have bugs? Yup. I'm not sure I've played a game that didn't. And they've been working to fix them in every update.

I have literally just read someone in another thread call Frontier 'the worst company in the world'. I'm not joking. Their problem? They had misread the announcement about the Xbox exclusive and CQC and had immediately decided to rant about it not coming to the PC and not being free (if you haven't read the announcement, it is actually coming to the PC and Mac free). They included a threat that they would 'unleash raw hate' on Frontier for this. Seriously. No irony, no self-awareness. They felt that this was a completely acceptable thing to say.

I've seen posts that declare that Frontier is definitely not going to deliver on any of those ambitions from the Kickstarter, despite it being stated from the very beginning that they would need time to add it after release - their reasoning? It hasn't come out now. Frontier are adding things to the game that does not interest them personally. Therefore Frontier are liars and cheats, and they want their money back, despite having already played the game for months. Again, no irony. Not even a hint of awareness of how they are making themselves appear.

Honestly, who actually cares whether players on another platform get to beta test a new feature before we do? Who is actually so petty and small-minded that they must have something so fleeting and temporary over other players and then gnash their teeth with jealous rage when it is denied them? We all get to play this completely additional (and optional) feature of the game for free in a few months time anyway. How can someone do this without realising how counter-productive it is? Do they genuinely believe that openly and unashamedly throwing tantrums, making threats and accusations of criminal behaviour all the while telling the world how jealous they are... do they believe this does anything but reflect on them? Do they really believe they're helping their case?

Some of the reactions have become so toxic and infantile that I've found the only sane reaction is actual physical revulsion.

I don't blame you if you take a break from the forums. Fly safe.

 

[vicgreed]

Video games are MUCH more than art. People have every right to be critical of a flawed product. Just because you choose to call it "art" does not give developers a pass to create shoddy/bugged content. Video games are a product. The p;ayers are consumers. The end.

 

[Karakhian]

Video games are MUCH more than art. People have every right to be critical of a flawed product. Just because you choose to call it "art" does not give developers a pass to create shoddy/bugged content. Video games are a product. The p;ayers are consumers. The end.

There's nothing wrong with constructive criticism. I think it'd also be pretty rich to suggest Frontier haven't responded to bugs or criticism.

Calling it a "product" doesn't give "consumers" a pass to behave like spoilt children, or entitle them to attention from the developer when they use hyperbolic hatred and misinformation to get what they want.

I'm being pretty clear on the kind of thing I'm talking about - I gave an example.

And frankly, if some consumers do act that way, I hope Frontier ignore them. And more power to them.

 

[Some Useless Geek]

The Separation of Art from Craft

Games are not "art" in any sense of the word. They are commercial products just like a toaster, or a car, or a spreadsheet. If Frontier produce games that are buggy and filled with ill-conceived and poorly executed gameplay design then they are producing bad product, straight up. As for game design, features, and gameplay, that's what you have "designers" for. Those people come up with the artsy-fartsy conceptualization, the overall strategies, the features, etc. If you have a problem with the artistic content of the game then you take it up with them.

As for the bugs, those are just product errors revealing themselves. This has nothing to do with art, farts, or concepts. Any modern product development process (an, Crosby, etc.) tells you that you either have an error-free product or you don't. There is no wiggle room for "art" in the crafting of a software product. Unfortunately, game publishing houses usually don't address the creation of games the same way medical equipment firms look at making Class III patient treatment systems. This is sad, because the same development process controls that Medtronics uses to make implanted defibrillators applies to game houses and the games they make.

I've only had one gig at a game publishing house, but it was at Williams/Bally/Midway, so that experience was pretty indicative of the game industry overall. The creation of a game involves a team composed of many skill sets. Artists and software developers are separate functions with little overlap. Please don't lets confuse the creation of a game conceptually with the development of a game's functionality. We need to separate our beefs with the game into bad game design versus bad game execution. Frame your complaints as such and you'll get better focus on what's wrong.

 

[Trenchfoot321]

And remember, not all art is good. But all art connoisseurs believe they know what good art is, and if they see something they deem as bad art, they will tell everyone how bad it is, how weak the colors are, how it's lacking in content, how the artists should've spent less time doing petty doodles for cash. You think the forums are bad? Spend some time with art people, they're evil.

 

[SteveLaw]

Art is subjective, not objective. It's all about how it makes you feel. That's what art is for. Currently Elite is looking increasingly like a shark in formaldehyde for a lot of people. That provokes reaction especially when people are emotionally invested in the game and its future (and its past).

 

[CorruptedSoul]

Games are art. Devs are artists

Customers are critics that make or break a artist career.

 

[Sonoskay]

Customers are critics that make or break a artist career.

Missed the point or didnt bother reading the post. either way...

Games are not "art" in any sense of the word. .

So to you film and sculptures and writings are not art?these can be mass produced, these can be made out of good or cheap materials or ideas.. Doesnt make them any less of an art form. Games are an advanced story telling, A medium that encompasses a story, A world, Characters, music , acting, ect. you are mistaken if you think video games are not art. and i truly pitty you.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Games are not "art" in any sense of the word. They are commercial products just like a toaster, or a car, or a spreadsheet.

In addition to the point already made that many other art forms are sold to raise money to feed the artists and/or the middlemen and/or the bosses, bear in mind that there are many games released for free with no commercial ambitions at all. Can they be art, or is their sharing a medium with things which have been paid for sufficient to disqualify them?

Regarding programming itself as art ... what do you count something like Duff's Device as? That seems to me to have required significant creativity from its inventor, and additionally regularly evokes definite emotional reactions in readers. (Sure, it was in its era actually useful as well, but plenty of art has functional aims - architecture, for instance)

As for the bugs, those are just product errors revealing themselves. This has nothing to do with art, farts, or concepts. Any modern product development process (an, Crosby, etc.) tells you that you either have an error-free product or you don't. There is no wiggle room for "art" in the crafting of a software product. Unfortunately, game publishing houses usually don't address the creation of games the same way medical equipment firms look at making Class III patient treatment systems. This is sad, because the same development process controls that Medtronics uses to make implanted defibrillators applies to game houses and the games they make.

Except that Medtronics has several factors which make it much easier for it to produce bug-free (well, "no known bug", at least) systems. (Which is not to say that Medtronics has an easy job of doing so, merely a possible one)

Game developers generally don't - except on the consoles - get to guarantee a particular hardware platform for their software (and certainly never in modern commercial gaming get to co-design the hardware platform to meet their specific needs). Game developers get far less freedom to restrict the allowable inputs to the software from the user. In a complex game like Elite: Dangerous, the interactions between system components are considerably more complex than in a defibrillator which has to do just one thing very well. Game developers have a considerably less precise specification [1] to work to than defibrillator manufacturers, and the test cases have to be much more qualitative. Perhaps most obviously, game developers also have considerably less QA budget than defibrillator manufacturers, because no-one actually dies if the level-of-detail calculation in the fragment shader gives the wrong result when viewed at an angle of less than 5 degrees from the normal.

I'd rather be playing Elite Dangerous now with bugs than seeing it get cancelled after five years of private development because the only thing they could come up with that was "guaranteed" bug free in that time was a few disconnected bits of core engine code, running on the also-cancelled EDSystem hardware.

[1] In the case of Elite Dangerous and similar games which should be trying to give emergent behaviour, designing all the features in and locking them down precisely beforehand would be actively counterproductive.

 

[NVNM]

Games are, at best, cargo-cult art. Just because something looks like art doesn't make it art. This is mostly the pitfall of Indie titles though. ED is clearly a money-printing scheme first and foremost.

 

[Krieger]

Well said OP. The only thing I would like to add is that the outrageous reactions in this forum could be the downside of financing a project through Kickstarter. It appears to me there is a small but very loud group of backers who think that backing ED via Kickstarter entitles them to control development of the game. Maybe Frontier unwittingly reinforced them in this idea with the Design Discussion Forums[1] and the alpha and beta backers programs.
.
[1] Some commenters tellingly refer to DDF as Design Decision Forum.

 

[Komemiute]

Sadly, and history confirms, some of the best Art/Artists are recognized after they are long gone...

 

[LuciusEsox]

Games are not "art" in any sense of the word. They are commercial products just like a toaster, or a car, or a spreadsheet. If Frontier produce games that are buggy and filled with ill-conceived and poorly executed gameplay design then they are producing bad product, straight up. As for game design, features, and gameplay, that's what you have "designers" for. Those people come up with the artsy-fartsy conceptualization, the overall strategies, the features, etc. If you have a problem with the artistic content of the game then you take it up with them.

As for the bugs, those are just product errors revealing themselves. This has nothing to do with art, farts, or concepts. Any modern product development process (an, Crosby, etc.) tells you that you either have an error-free product or you don't. There is no wiggle room for "art" in the crafting of a software product. Unfortunately, game publishing houses usually don't address the creation of games the same way medical equipment firms look at making Class III patient treatment systems. This is sad, because the same development process controls that Medtronics uses to make implanted defibrillators applies to game houses and the games they make.

I've only had one gig at a game publishing house, but it was at Williams/Bally/Midway, so that experience was pretty indicative of the game industry overall. The creation of a game involves a team composed of many skill sets. Artists and software developers are separate functions with little overlap. Please don't lets confuse the creation of a game conceptually with the development of a game's functionality. We need to separate our beefs with the game into bad game design versus bad game execution. Frame your complaints as such and you'll get better focus on what's wrong.

Outstanding,

Games are not art... I honestly think that is like saying that a picture like Guernica by Picasso is just a collection of lines on a canvas or indeed any painting/drawing... pfft.. ok ,, what is art ?

That's something that's never been asked before I am sure

Lots of people using the term product and consume it seems... watching too many adverts methinks.

 

[Poseidal]

We only know art years later. Time has a funny way of generating art.

 

[Sonoskay]

Games are, at best, cargo-cult art. Just because something looks like art doesn't make it art. This is mostly the pitfall of Indie titles though. ED is clearly a money-printing scheme first and foremost.

While game PUBLISHING is mostly about money, NO ONE and i mean NO ONE Goes into the development side without some though of creation and artistry. as a game dev you work super long hours. Get pay Not well considering Software and graphical desginers get payed much much better in other fields. If you are a game dev and are and are only in it for the money then you picked the wrong profession.
IF you think this then i would sudgest going out into the woods and living as a hermit. because the cynicism you must entertain must equal that of most consperisy theorists

Your theory is even sillier considering ED is a space sim. Space sims don't print money. if you want to print money, its a much better idea to get into either the mobile market. The last fad that was printing out money was Modern military shooters, now it seems to be your 3rd person sandbox RPG, the market for space sims is relatively small. of frontier wanted to truely print money, they would go with somhing mainstream. instead of doing the thing they do best. there is a reason nearly every game from frontier is a space sim, its because they like making them.

 

[FlaGuitars]

Excellent post.

As a musician, when it comes time to write a new tune, should I write what I want, what I feel needs to be written, or should I write what the fans and publisher wants me to write ?

I guess that depends on if I am a business-man or a artist. For most of us both dynamics are in play when we write.... but which one out-weighs the other ?

Half of the band are artist, the other half business orientated, we have to compromise with each other or the “band” will no longer exist.

 

[Poseidal]

While game PUBLISHING is mostly about money, NO ONE and i mean NO ONE Goes into the development side without some though of creation and artistry. as a game dev you work super long hours. Get pay Not well considering Software and graphical desginers get payed much much better in other fields. If you are a game dev and are and are only in it for the money then you picked the wrong profession.
IF you think this then i would sudgest going out into the woods and living as a hermit. because the cynicism you must entertain must equal that of most consperisy theorists

Your theory is even sillier considering ED is a space sim. Space sims don't print money. if you want to print money, its a much better idea to get into either the mobile market. The last fad that was printing out money was Modern military shooters, now it seems to be your 3rd person sandbox RPG, the market for space sims is relatively small. of frontier wanted to truely print money, they would go with somhing mainstream. instead of doing the thing they do best. there is a reason nearly every game from frontier is a space sim, its because they like making them.

Don't think about it as 'making money'. Think about it as pleasing customers (not necessarily exactly what they ask for, but create a need for them, something they want). There are a reasonable amount of people who like space-sims.

Make something to put yourself on a pedestal (which a lot of these art-house indie games seem to do), rather than for the pleasure of those playing it, who you want to share it with.