Keas Are Aviary Birds

[NZFanatic]

I've seen the kea listed constantly as a potential regular-old habitat animal. At first I assumed a lot of international folks were mixing it up with the kakapo, but a few discussions over the last months have shown me that, no, for some reason a lot of people think keas don't like to fly. The assumption is that because the keas they see in zoos spend a lot of time on the ground, that's how they must behave all the time.

That assumption is wrong.

No zoo in the world, including here in New Zealand, keeps them outside of an aviary. They are fully-flighted parrots. They are not comparable to the ground-dwelling kakapo, or other "technically flighted" birds like pheasants or waders or crowned pigeons. The reason they don't fly much in captivity is the same reason that most birds don't; because they don't need to. However, if you visited a zoo in New Zealand, you would be more likely to see them flying, and showing off their frankly stunning blood-orange underwing feathers in the process. Here we keep them in free-flight aviaries, giving them room to stretch their wings. Do they still spend most of their time on the ground? Yes. That's where the majority of their enrichment is, that's where their food tends to be. They are also highly intelligent and curious and love coming up to zoo guests, stealing trinkets, and so on. I've had them land on me as both a keeper and a visitor.

The bottom line is, they should not be regular habitat animals unless you plan on every flying bird being a habitat animal. The reason is simple; without an aviary, they would fly away, because they can fly and do so with proficiency. Same as any other bird. The other reason is that they are an extremely protected species, and aviaries not only keep the kea in but keep other animals, such as wild birds, cats, and so on, out.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk. Forgive me for griping but since NZ native species are quite literally my forte I get a bit of a bee in my bonnet about these things.

 

[yoav_r]

The amount of people trying to pass aviary birds as hsbitat birds is ridiculous.

Just because a bird is not a falcon doesn't mean it can't fly.

 

[NZFanatic]

The amount of people trying to pass aviary birds as hsbitat birds is ridiculous.

Just because a bird is not a falcon doesn't mean it can't fly.

Yup, or "just because it doesn't fly much in an aviary doesn't mean it wouldn't if the aviary wasn't there."

Take the roof off the aviary and do you think the bird will still sit there? Maybe it would, for a while, but eventually it's going to realise, "Hey, I can actually get out of here because my wings still work!"

 

[Captain Callum]

I'm no way familiar with new Zealand birds but the idea of having say a parrot like bird as a habitat animal seems downright ridiculous. Almost every smaller flying bird should be held in an aviary of some sort whether it's walkthrough or a simple mesh box. An habitat bird should be a bird that cannot fly, that cannot be preyed on from local wildlife or even just absolutely massive like the existing cassowary

 

[SalamAnders]

As I am clearly part of the reason behind all this, I guess I should comment.
In the meantime, I have probably reached the conclusion that keas might be better in exhibits in PZ. But this is a matter of opinion, not the one holy truth. And I don't see why this should be claimed to be a fact. Or why people thinking otherwise should be talked down to.

That something is only kept in an aviary in real life, doesn't have to mean it must be in an exhibit in Planet Zoo. The exhibits function the same both with and without a roof. Just like habitats function more or less the same with and without a custom mesh roof over it. The word aviary has never been used in PZ. Escape by flight is not a thing in Planet Zoo. Try to use the non-function in your bat exhibits, and you would know this.


But if the strongest argument is, it would fly out in real life, then you are putting a higher level of realism on flying birds than most other animals in PZ. Most realism in this game is implied or achieved with sandbox settings. Is it realistic to keep elephants in an enclosure entirely made of glass? Is it realistic to keep a tortoise outdoors in the tundra? The game allows you to do these things anyway. So why shouldn't it allow us to have a flying species as a habitat animal without a roof? Luckily it is not forcing us to do any of this, since we can still build a roof if we want a roof, just as we can put our tortoise inside a tropical house or keep our elephant behind a strong fence or a moat. Why suppress creative freedom when it comes to birds?
Why does the minimum for realism have to be higher for birds than for other species?

The options to build realistic-looking aviaries are somewhat equal if you use habitats or walk-through exhibits. The major difference is only how the animals behave inside it.


In habitats, you will be able to see this behavior:

Do they still spend most of their time on the ground? Yes. That's where the majority of their enrichment is, that's where their food tends to be

This might be possible to see as loops in exhibits, but we don't know. We don't even know if terrestrial behavior in walk-through exhibits will happen.
None of the current options as we know them will be able to show the many aspects of keas behaviors.

In habitats, they will most likely not fly, but they will use enrichment, have juveniles, move around and interact with what we build
In exhibits, they will fly. Some will most likely even be on constant flying loops. Is that realistic? Terrestrial behavior may or may not happen. If it happens it will be ignoring everything we place on the ground and clip through it.

Both options allow us to build solid and mesh roofs. None of the options will allow the animals to fly out if we don't make a roof.
What is preferred is a matter of what behaviors you care about the most, it is not about how they are kept in real life.

 

[NZFanatic]

have juveniles,

Juvenile kea are not any different to any other juvenile bird. Helpless and nestbound until they're the same size as the adult, but with uglier feathers. What's the appeal?4

Edit: My post is not just directed at you anyway. I disagree with all your reasoning, but that isn't the point. You at least have reasons. A lot of people don't.

It's more that the kea is singled out as a habitat bird. It's not any less aerial in zoos than macaws, cockatoos, eagles, falcons, toucans, etc. If it's good for one, it's good for all. I get annoyed at people treating it like some unique special bird that can work where others can't. One list I saw had it listed as a habitat bird over the kiwi, which the poster preferred as an WE animal (which is horrendously absurd on its own).

 

[NZFanatic]

Both options allow us to build solid and mesh roofs.

I also disagree with this. There is no in-game mechanism to allow us to build mesh roofs on anything. We have prop fences; they can be used to build roofs, but they aren't made for that. Just like how elephant grass can be used to stop animals from escaping, but it isn't made for that either. The two concepts are the same. The mesh fences are supposed to be fences; if they were made for roofs, they'd be plain panels with fitting triangular shapes make it actually work.

 

[SalamAnders]

I also disagree with this. There is no in-game mechanism to allow us to build mesh roofs on anything. We have prop fences; they can be used to build roofs, but they aren't made for that. Just like how elephant grass can be used to stop animals from escaping, but it isn't made for that either. The two concepts are the same. The mesh fences are supposed to be fences; if they were made for roofs, they'd be plain panels with fitting triangular shapes make it actually work.

If you remove the ceiling in the exhibits, you will miss out on some looped animations, but the bats won't fly out and therefore you can keep them under the open air. The ceiling is not a barrier, just like using mesh over habitats isn't much else than an implied function. So both options offer a possibility to make visual aviaries that don't affect the animals much. Both options allow you to keep flying animals with no roof without consequences. So I can't see much value in the escape argument. The roof isn't a must in the exhibits.

I agree that a lot of flying birds' behaviors (the kea's too) will benefit from the exhibit. But both options allow more or less equal options to build implied aviaries.

 

[ElectricMonk]

I also disagree with this. There is no in-game mechanism to allow us to build mesh roofs on anything. We have prop fences; they can be used to build roofs, but they aren't made for that. Just like how elephant grass can be used to stop animals from escaping, but it isn't made for that either. The two concepts are the same. The mesh fences are supposed to be fences; if they were made for roofs, they'd be plain panels with fitting triangular shapes make it actually work.

I disagree with this (though I agree with a lot of what you’re saying). There’s nothing about the mesh that implies that they’re intended only as fences… plenty of exhibits with mesh have square mesh roofs. I’d even go so far as to say that many (most?) of the people asking for mesh pieces before we got them wanted them primarily for the tops of cages (I certainly did) because we could already build the sides of exhibits using the mesh barrier.

 

[NZFanatic]

There’s nothing about the mesh that implies that they’re intended only as fences

They are listed under "Prop Fences" in the construction menu.

 

[ElectricMonk]

They are listed under "Prop Fences" in the construction menu.

Are they? Ok, (honestly never noticed) fair point (although listing them in that category doesn’t mean that’s their only intended use). In any case, it doesn’t change the fact that they are just as, if not more, useful for cage ceilings than as cage walls though…. Whether they were intended only as fences or not, they function perfectly well as ceilings to contain animals and would do a perfectly good gob of containing flying habitat species.

 

[peafowl]

I havent been a part of the discussion but I will push for as many birds as possible be habitat, even if not realistic, just because i want fleshed out animals that are not stuck on a loop animation.

 

[ElectricMonk]

I havent been a part of the discussion but I will push for as many birds as possible be habitat, even if not realistic, just because i want fleshed out animals that are not stuck on a loop animation.

I think the exhibit is better for birds that are small, fly a lot, and tend to kept in large groups (finches, small parrots, etc) but habitat is better for birds that don’t fit these criteria. Especially larger, solitary birds and water birds. The ones in between (like macaws, cockatoos etc., I’d be happy with either way, but would probably prefer habitat.

 

[SalamAnders]

It is pointless to discuss what the true purpose of the mesh is, in a game that allows you to build most things out of anything. You could make a roof out of giraffe signs if you wanted. I used mesh as an example, because that is what most people use for building aviaries in this game. But people did also manage to build aviaries before we had them. It was just trickier, and hopefully one day we get even easier options.

The point is that the ceiling is more or less as much just a visual concept in the exhibits as it is in the habitats. Completely optional, and not tied to if an animal can escape or not

 

[NZFanatic]

Whether they were intended only as fences or not, they function perfectly well as ceilings to contain animals

Not the point I was making.

Salam suggested that there were in-game mechanisms for building mesh roofs, but "in-game mechanism" implies a specific feature for that purpose. The barriers are an "in-game mechanism" for building habitats. The wall pieces are an "in-game mechanism" for building walls. If we had a mesh building set or appropriately-shaped panels then I might agree, but as far as I'm concerned anything that requires the level of mucking about that the mesh fences require to build roofed habitats is not a mechanism suited to that purpose. Fiddling for perfection is an option in this game, not something you have to do. For example, a flat, featureless habitat is still fit for purpose, as is a building made only of walls and roof pieces without any embellishment; the extra bits, the detailing, isn't necessary.

This is getting off-topic though. The original point still stands. Kea are unsuitable as regular habitat animals.

 

[SalamAnders]

Then please explain to me how the optional exhibit ceiling plays a bigger role than the non-functional roof you can build over your habitat?

 

[peafowl]

I think the exhibit is better for birds that are small, fly a lot, and tend to kept in large groups (finches, small parrots, etc) but habitat is better for birds that don’t fit these criteria. Especially larger, solitary birds and water birds. The ones in between (like macaws, cockatoos etc., I’d be happy with either way, but would probably prefer habitat.

Totally agree. Comparing them to exhibits and habitat animal sizes would work for me - birds smaller than our smallest habitat animal would be exhibit, ie

 

[NZFanatic]

Then please explain to me how the optional exhibit ceiling plays a bigger role than the non-functional roof you can build over your habitat?

Please explain to me why kea are singled out over every other bird. Because that is the whole point of this.

 

[ElectricMonk]

The barriers are an "in-game mechanism" for building habitats. The wall pieces are an "in-game mechanism" for building walls.

And the panels (mesh or otherwise) are an in-game mechanism for building either.

 

[NZFanatic]

And the panels (mesh or otherwise) are an in-game mechanism for building either.

Except they aren't panels, they're fences. So they're an in-game mechanism for building prop fences. It just so happens that if you screw with them enough you can also do other stuff.

But again, it doesn't matter. That's just tangential, not remotely related to the topic.