Kinetic Weapons, Newton, and You

IndigoWyrd

IndigoWyrd
According to Newton's First Law: "In every material universe, the motion of a particle in a preferential reference frame Φ is determined by the action of forces whose total vanished for all times when and only when the velocity of the particle is constant in Φ. That is, a particle initially at rest or in uniform motion in the preferential frame Φ continues in that state unless compelled by forces to change it."

So, when I fire a cannon, how can it have a maximum range? According to Newton, that cannon shot should continue on, in a straight line until it acted upon by an outside force - making kinetic weapons one of the most potentially dangerous weapons that could be used in space.

Or do our projectiles come in Flight-Assist-On-Only mode?
 

PhanttoM

PhanttoM
In the context of a video game where the effective combat distance is less than 3km - does it really matter? You're unlikely to hit anything beyond that, unless it's a stationary target or flying in a straight line.

Not to mention, if the game had keep track of the thousands of projectiles fired off during combat that are out of player sight, it would be a complete waste of system resources.

It would be simulation for the sake of simulation.
 

Siranui

S
IndigoWyrd said:
So, when I fire a cannon, how can it have a maximum range? According to Newton, that cannon shot should continue on, in a straight line until it acted upon by an outside force - making kinetic weapons one of the most potentially dangerous weapons that could be used in space.
Click to expand...

Even in vacuum, bullets still don't fly exactly where you thin you are firing them. There is a degree of inaccuracy from the weapon, and accuracy is generally measured in MOA (minutes of arc).

But the major limitation is your targeting system. The 'range' of a modern 5.56mm rifle for individual fire is 400m. The bullet can still kill someone from a mile away. You just won't hit anything at that range.
You're trying to hit a target moving at several hundred mph, from a platform moving at several hundred miles per hour, at a range of several km. Modern tank guns can slap DUI into targets several km away, but they aren't moving fast, and nor is what they are shooting at. WW2 pilots equipped with 50 cal machineguns with an accurate ground range of a km generally fired at their enemies from under 400m away... normal MUCH less than that.



The second possible limitation occurs in some sci-fi, precisely because of Newton's first law of motion: Spaceship kinetic ammunition is fitted with self-destruct fuses which detonate a few seconds after firing, even if they miss. It's an important safety consideration in a universe where sometimes thousands of spacecraft are fighting in populated systems.
Otherwise there could be a war, and then 3 years later a space station over the other side of the system gets destroyed by four stray rounds of 120mm cannon ammunition.
 

Poseidal

Poseidal
The alternative is have the inherent inaccuracy that any projectile weapon would have (and all ranges would be a lot longer but it won't be a fun game).

Since people hate jitter I think people would hate this more than arbitrary ranges.

Also projectiles are so slow good luck hitting anything at near max range anyway.
 

IndigoWyrd

IndigoWyrd
Siranui said:
Even in vacuum, bullets still don't fly exactly where you thin you are firing them. There is a degree of inaccuracy from the weapon, and accuracy is generally measured in MOA (minutes of arc).

But the major limitation is your targeting system. The 'range' of a modern 5.56mm rifle for individual fire is 400m. The bullet can still kill someone from a mile away. You just won't hit anything at that range.
You're trying to hit a target moving at several hundred mph, from a platform moving at several hundred miles per hour, at a range of several km. Modern tank guns can slap DUI into targets several km away, but they aren't moving fast, and nor is what they are shooting at. WW2 pilots equipped with 50 cal machineguns with an accurate ground range of a km generally fired at their enemies from under 400m away... normal MUCH less than that.



The second possible limitation occurs in some sci-fi, precisely because of Newton's first law of motion: Spaceship kinetic ammunition is fitted with self-destruct fuses which detonate a few seconds after firing, even if they miss. It's an important safety consideration in a universe where sometimes thousands of spacecraft are fighting in populated systems.
Otherwise there could be a war, and then 3 years later a space station over the other side of the system gets destroyed by four stray rounds of 120mm cannon ammunition.
Click to expand...

Yes, this exactly - especailly the last paragraph. And I am quite familiar with MOA, as an avid marksman and hunter. The sheer hazard of simply flying past an active combat zone where multicannons are blazing away - the thought of it gives me chills. So I figured these must be some sort of handwavium-cored munitions to keep the rest of space safe.
 

Alex Brentnall

Alex Brentnall
The (non-lore reason) is obviously people using weapons to attack people out of range at stations etc.

In lore I can only assume muntions as others have said :)
 

Deleted member 38366

D
Yup, self-destruct after a max. TOF.

[video=youtube;dwZE2vcmyFU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwZE2vcmyFU[/video]

[video=youtube;VQ6YChXRn_A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQ6YChXRn_A[/video]

ciws.jpg

(Naval Version of this 20th century "MultiCannon")
 
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Genar-Hofoen

Genar-Hofoen
Answer: Because "gameplay trumps realism"

We've had threads like this before. I don't know if you were here during the Great Newtonian Flight Wars - those were the days! I still bear the wounds from that ;)

But really, at the end of the day, that's the overall answer you'll get.
 

Genar-Hofoen

Genar-Hofoen
crushdepth said:
But faster than light travel is ok.
Click to expand...

It's perfectly fine in a science-fiction-based game. Besides which - you couldn't do what happened in Frontier: Elite II , where flight within a star system was less than the speed of light and you had time compression so you didn't have to wait months to get from one planet to another. That wouldn't work in a sadly-multiplayer game where everything has to happen in real time - so the answer was to have FTL/supercruise.
 

Macy

Macy
The more realistic a game gets, the more realism the players expect. Like it becomes a victim of its own success. I see the same with movies. People expect everything in a movie to make perfect logical sense, even if it involves Zombies.

Its a game!!!!!!
Jeeez
 

Minoo Minou

Minoo Minou
And travelling faster than light, seems legit... What's the point in questioning realism in this game? There's almost nothing approaching realism...
 
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Achilles7

Banned
Achilles7
Newsflash - Most of us are aware of the suspension of disbelief issues in the game!

..but thanks for this particular (hehehe) reminder anyway!
 

Saool

Saool
IndigoWyrd said:
According to Newton's First Law: "In every material universe, the motion of a particle in a preferential reference frame Φ is determined by the action of forces whose total vanished for all times when and only when the velocity of the particle is constant in Φ. That is, a particle initially at rest or in uniform motion in the preferential frame Φ continues in that state unless compelled by forces to change it."

So, when I fire a cannon, how can it have a maximum range? According to Newton, that cannon shot should continue on, in a straight line until it acted upon by an outside force - making kinetic weapons one of the most potentially dangerous weapons that could be used in space.

Or do our projectiles come in Flight-Assist-On-Only mode?
Click to expand...

For the same reason my ships have a top speed instead of accelerating and accelerating and accelerating and accelerating and accelerating for as long as fire the engines.

Game.

But +1 for the title.
 
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