Horizons Lack of challenging content

[Privata]

This may be just a fancy way of saying ''AI is too easy''
But given that I want to give feedback and try and help , and maybe even propose an idea that could suit everyone.

Disclaimers :
-If I talk about 2.1 AI being good I am not talking about the OP weapon bug but just the basic AI.
-When I talk about AI , I am not talking about supercruise , interdictions or out of combat behavior.
-For me the AI should hold its own (at least from rank dangerous and higher) in a 1V1 dogfight.

My issues with the AI
I feel that they are just too easy. no matter what rank they are they dont ever seem to want to fight to survive.
I feel like they dont try , that they have slow reactions.


So I messed with them for hours , just playing with them. to see what was the issue.

Here is the issues I found :
-AI seems to have limited movement in any given direction.
-AI never seems to try to get behind you and follow you from behind (TLR they dont dogfight)
-AI reaction times are very low as you can fly infront of them and they will take time to fire back
-The difference between harmless and elite in effect seems to be near zero.
-AI will never do tricks like turn backwards and shoot at you at high speed and then boost out of the way.
-AI is not able to fly using FA/OFF (something that legend has it will change) as they dont use techniques from FA/OFF
-They dont ever change direction mid flight (like turn around)
-I have never seen them fire at me whiles flying backwards
-They dont seem to make big use of manoveuring thrusters to dodge attacks
-They seem to favor short bursts of attacks rather than full on fire.

However , an important note is :
Many players dont want fighting in the game , some players even want the AI to be easy.
Having a video game be easy is something I will never understand but I accept that and respect it.

So whiles fighting today I dreamed up solutions.
-Having a ''open hard'' mode. yes it would devide the community even more , but with so many playing in solo and in groups what difference will it make? and it will keep players like me happy and the more relaxed players happy as well
-Have NPCs from high ranks outright ignore low ranked players. so they still spawn and unless the player with a low rank did nothing to deserve an attack they will be left alone.

I miss the short moment in 2.1 when the AI could hold its own. it could do good manuvers and even in rare cases stay behind the player.
and it would even fire at the right moment and hit the target.

As it stands , I see them miss 80% of the time. as long as you move and thrust around nothing will hit you.

I do think its important that what ever happens there is content for all types of players.
But having the AI be this easy , to me is an issue.

Its even more of an issue when we have seen decent AI and have been promised good AI from around 1.1/1.2

So even if its just a new game mode with harder AIs in it (so that its optional for those who hate that sort of stuff) it would go a long way IMHO.

Oh , and please lets not start a flame war.
If you think its fine then thats cool but no need to insult those who find combat boring.

And of course the AI in elite is well coded , its not an issue of FD not being able to make good AI.
The AI feels like if its being limited , rather than being weak outright.
Its still better than SC horrible AI , but I hope that one day we get a good AI to fight , flee and fear.


TL DR :
The AI does not dogfight as it never tries to go behind you and it has slow reaction times.
And it does not use any of the techniques used by players (last moment direction change)

It only tries to fly towards you and shoot , never sticking to your rear. (like the player does)
In fact once you are behind an NPC there is no way they will escape

I think having High ranked NPCs ignore low rank players (unless the AI has a good reason to attack them of course) could hlep along with a ''open -hardcore'' mode with the AI set on its hardest at all times. (or something like that)

Because I dont want to upset those who like the game easy. but I as well would like to have some fun

 

[Arry]

Go shot at a station? Escaping afterwards, of course.

 

[Flimley]

Or just make available in game a 'npc's dont see me half the time' ship module. For the shy cmdr.

Flimley

 

[Privata]

Go shot at a station? Escaping afterwards, of course.

TLR
The AI does not dogfight as it never tries to go behind you and it has slow reaction times.

I think having High ranked NPCs ignore low rank players (unless the AI has a good reason to attack them of course) could hlep along with a ''open -hardcore'' mode with the AI set on its hardest at all times. (or something like that)

Because I dont want to upset those who like the game easy. but I too would like to have some fun

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Or just make available in game a 'npc's dont see me half the time' ship module. For the shy cmdr.

Flimley

A stealth upgrade?
Thats a good idea.

But... then we will have players complaining that it takes up a slot.
Maybe it should only work in supercruise or with your weapons down

 

[Arry]

TLR
The AI does not dogfight as it never tries to go behind you and it has slow reaction times.

I think having High ranked NPCs ignore low rank players (unless the AI has a good reason to attack them of course) could hlep along with a ''open -hardcore'' mode with the AI set on its hardest at all times. (or something like that)

Because I dont want to upset those who like the game easy. but I too would like to have some fun

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -


A stealth upgrade?
Thats a good idea.

But... then we will have players complaining that it takes up a slot.
Maybe it should only work in supercruise or with your weapons down

I have often played chicken with the station guns and according to new rumours on the subject, look forward to that next encounter. i don't think I will get away, but it is worth the try.

 

[Flimley]

TLR
A stealth upgrade?
Thats a good idea.

But... then we will have players complaining that it takes up a slot.
Maybe it should only work in supercruise or with your weapons down

Being interdicted 50% less often (maybe even less with engineers upgrades) could well be worth a module slot for many. But agreed, an SC semi stealth module it is !
There see, thats that sorted. ...Drinks all round, release the hounds !
Next we will reconsile the Russian and American problem...

Flimley

 

[Privata]

Being interdicted 50% less often (maybe even less with engineers upgrades) could well be worth a module slot for many. But agreed, an SC semi stealth module it is !
There see, thats that sorted. ...Drinks all round, release the hounds !
Next we will reconsile the Russian and American problem...

Flimley

The way I see it is that the AI is two issues.

Supercruise and interdictions are one side.
And then there is the combat side.

I am mostly talking about the combat side , I find it easy.
But in a way that just feels off.

Its reached the point where combat feels like an arcade egoshooter , rather than the Xwing alliance/tie fighter style game

 

[CaptainKremmen]

1. Key their skill levels to System Security Level.
2, Restore full range of AI skill-> capability.
3. Done.

As of the next point-release, we will be shown the security level of every destination system - before we jump.

We will be fully informed, finally.

...so make it really mean something, beyond the current police response time. Let us manage our OWN difficulty, through our choices in-game.

 

[Flimley]

Its a truly tricky problem to solve, particularly as expectaions and combat acumen vary so greatly.

I personally dislike being interdicted constantly for carrying engineer commodities, the ships that knock me from SC offer zero challenge and only serve as an annoyance to delay me from my missions. But for some (even experienced) cmdrs it can result in an uncertain future past that point.
What to do indeed ? Do you find Haz-res a good challenge at least ?

Flimley

 

[Spacecat]

Go to a hazres in a hauler full of cargo.

 

[Faded Glory]

I could be dreaming it, but I'm sure I read something from M Brookes that there would be a new very hard AI USS or some such location. Perhaps what you are asking for. Can't say I've seen anything in beta, but then I wouldn't be looking for it.

To be honest, while I don't find the NPCs overwhelming, I can't say that they don't fight back, and they certainly manage to land shots on me. I have never come across one above Competent ranking that didn't have a go, and they don't sit idly in front of my guns, I have to make an effort to get them there. Of course much depends on the context, as in what and how many you are fighting, and what ship you are in. At least, I imagine that is the case for many players. Additionally, FD have certainly made it so that often times you the player are not alone fighting the NPCs, although that is something that individuals can impact, simply by having "Report Crimes Against Me" turned off.

I'm not suggesting that players should have to artificially handicap themselves in order to get a good fight, but I will say that when I fight in my Cobra against a similar ship, the fights are fun and seem well balanced, when I'm in my FDL, then sometimes less so, it's a powerful tank of a ship. I think FD are doing a pretty decent job of matchmaking at the moment, but I doubt anything but the hardest NPCs will satisfy some.

 

[DarthRavadge]

I was thinking multicrew could open up some new possibilities in this area. Missions recommended for 2+ players could be taken on by a single pilot. As for the missions themselves I would love to see assaults on military installations and capital ships. Random capital ships and mission specific bases/installations should be fully destructible.

 

[Hooplah]

Depends upon your rank and what you are flying. As I moved up in rank with larger ships (Python, Anaconda, Clipper) I find my NPC enemies also show up with bigger/faster fighters and more firepower. With less maneuverability what you are suggesting might put an end to trading and mining. A 10 mil rebuy/cargo on a trading ship that does 10 mill/hr in a safe area could be frustrating. Perhaps PVP would be more satisfying given your current expertise? A lot of PVE had been limited in favor of PVP thus to your advantage.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I find the AI a good challenge. I congratulate you on your skill level if you do not find them a challenge.

Maybe we can ask FD to start sending uber ships against you to provide you with the challenge you seek!

 

[EzeThieL]

There are those times when the AI will just stay still for no reason taking hit after hit, or those times when they smash gloriously in asteroids, but except those times, I find it mostly a pretty good challenge, maybe you pay too much time calculation and watching every move they make? Just shoot them down and pick another


p.s: Agony_Aunt your sig is awesome

 

[Lightspeed]

Here is the issues I found :
-AI seems to have limited movement in any given direction.
-AI never seems to try to get behind you and follow you from behind (TLR they dont dogfight)
-AI reaction times are very low as you can fly infront of them and they will take time to fire back
-The difference between harmless and elite in effect seems to be near zero.
-AI will never do tricks like turn backwards and shoot at you at high speed and then boost out of the way.
-AI is not able to fly using FA/OFF (something that legend has it will change) as they dont use techniques from FA/OFF
-They dont ever change direction mid flight (like turn around)
-I have never seen them fire at me whiles flying backwards
-They dont seem to make big use of manoveuring thrusters to dodge attacks
-They seem to favor short bursts of attacks rather than full on fire.

Strange, because going through these items as a checklist, I have encountered all of them. Enough to make me admire the thinking behind them (SJA congrats again !) and to be brutally challenged with occasionally either a heavily damaged ship or outright destruction.

Give the fast ones, such as Eagles, half a chance to get behind you and they will. Watch the Vipers and ICouriers boost out of trouble.

Watch the law enforcing NPCs - their flying definitely shows characteristics of FA Off during combat.

I can only imagine you are now so good at combat that either you don't see it, or they have given up.

 

[Arry]

Strange, because going through these items as a checklist, I have encountered all of them. Enough to make me admire the thinking behind them (SJA congrats again !) and to be brutally challenged with occasionally either a heavily damaged ship or outright destruction.

Give the fast ones, such as Eagles, half a chance to get behind you and they will. Watch the Vipers and ICouriers boost out of trouble.

Watch the law enforcing NPCs - their flying definitely shows characteristics of FA Off during combat.

I can only imagine you are now so good at combat that either you don't see it, or they have given up.

I would say his issue is; that with all the changes or improvements, comes predictability. The pixels can only do so much and as the changes happen, we say to our selves: Wow, what happened there, never seen that move before. But after seeing the same type of responses a few times; we get a feel of what they will be getting up to. A good chess player, knows all of the set moves and can see them evolving as the game progresses, then the player has an idea of what will be happening 5, 6 moves into the game and respond accordingly. Humans, can be unpredictable, pixels and programming often follow set pattens. This is a bit of a crude example, but I would say that the theory is sound.

 

[Privata]

Strange, because going through these items as a checklist, I have encountered all of them. Enough to make me admire the thinking behind them (SJA congrats again !) and to be brutally challenged with occasionally either a heavily damaged ship or outright destruction.

Give the fast ones, such as Eagles, half a chance to get behind you and they will. Watch the Vipers and ICouriers boost out of trouble.

Watch the law enforcing NPCs - their flying definitely shows characteristics of FA Off during combat.

I can only imagine you are now so good at combat that either you don't see it, or they have given up.

I have ''report crimes against me'' set to off
But I am going to have a look at them , because it sounds intresting.

However FD have said that they dont use FA/OFF they just use boost very well.
Its actualy amazing to watch ships fly in elite. it looks so good.

I dont think I am good at combat , I must be ''lucky''
To me combat is 50% skill 50% theory.

Maybe I should make a combat tutorial (on the theory side of it)
The issue is my dyslexic grammer will kill many readers

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I find the AI a good challenge. I congratulate you on your skill level if you do not find them a challenge.

Maybe we can ask FD to start sending uber ships against you to provide you with the challenge you seek!

Opt in hard AI? thats actualy a good idea.

Then everyone gets what they want.