General / Off-Topic Language awareness part 1: "I know Planet Coaster is not perfect but..."

[seeker7]

It feels to me like it's in 50% of all posts. People saying "(I know) Planet Coaster is not perfect". Why do they have to assure everybody that (a) PC is not perfect and (b) they're aware of the fact?

It's a true statement, absolutely, but It's sort of a given, right? No game is perfect, ever. It is literally impossible to make a perfect game. Frontier could slave away for years and still would not produce a perfect game. So instead of saying "PC is not perfect" you might just as well say "PC is a game". Duh! But hey, you're not wrong with that statement.

It's interesting though that this line is preferably followed by a "but". "I know it's not perfect but I'm having fun with it!" Again, true statement and good for you enjoying the game.
It's not useful in a discussion though because what you're really saying is "PC is a game but I'm having fun with it". There's no meaningful correlation between "not perfect" and "fun". (Also "fun" is a matter of pure personal opinion. Technical sophistication, gamedesign etc. are things that you can judge on more than the way it makes you feel. Anyway)

It's something completely different in a sentence like this: "RCTW is a crappy game but I'm having fun." Or this "PC is a great building game but I'm not having fun with it."
Now those are statements that actually say something.

But you knew all this, so why am I bringing it up? Because the line is used in replies to posts that point out issues with PC.
In this context it works with a false premise: Replying to criticism with "I know it's not perfect but..." is making it seem like someone made the demand that PC should be perfect (which is a ridiculous demand, of course).

So what the statement does is it shifts the focus of the discussion from what was said to something else. Also it seems to say "I aggree with you" but it's not (because PC being a game was never in question). It downplays/ dismisses the issues that have been raised and paints the poster in a bad light (only stupid unreasonable jerks would demand perfect games in a world where perfection doesn't exist!).

If it's true that you know PC is not perfect you should be able to simply acknowledge an issue. It might not bother you, alright. But if you want to defend PC come with real arguments. (Btw. I don't think PC (or Frontier) needs to be defended.)

TL;DR It's a common fallacy to misrepresent what has been said ("I know it's not perfect...") to make it easier to attack ("but...").

 

[gregorburns]

Pointing out people's use of language is really scraping the bottom of the barrel now. We get it, you'll never be happy. I know about the expression "don't feed the troll", but in this instance I had to respond, because I think you're just completely out of order. People actually do like the game you know? Consider for a second that that could be the reason why they word their posts in such a way that you don't agree with. (not to mention that many people here, some of whom are great friends of mine, do not have English as their first language). I've made a good number of complaints myself about things I am not happy with, in both the game and Frontier. But when it comes to attacking people's use of language, then you are really digging deep for ways to turn this forum to ❤︎❤︎❤︎❤︎. I know Planet Coaster is not perfect but I love it.

 

[danijami23]

It feels to me like it's in 50% of all posts. People saying "(I know) Planet Coaster is not perfect". Why do they have to assure everybody that (a) PC is not perfect and (b) they're aware of the fact?

It's a true statement, absolutely, but It's sort of a given, right? No game is perfect, ever. It is literally impossible to make a perfect game. Frontier could slave away for years and still would not produce a perfect game. So instead of saying "PC is not perfect" you might just as well say "PC is a game". Duh! But hey, you're not wrong with that statement.

It's interesting though that this line is preferably followed by a "but". "I know it's not perfect but I'm having fun with it!" Again, true statement and good for you enjoying the game.
It's not useful in a discussion though because what you're really saying is "PC is a game but I'm having fun with it". There's no meaningful correlation between "not perfect" and "fun". (Also "fun" is a matter of pure personal opinion. Technical sophistication, gamedesign etc. are things that you can judge on more than the way it makes you feel. Anyway)

It's something completely different in a sentence like this: "RCTW is a crappy game but I'm having fun." Or this "PC is a great building game but I'm not having fun with it."
Now those are statements that actually say something.

But you knew all this, so why am I bringing it up? Because the line is used in replies to posts that point out issues with PC.
In this context it works with a false premise: Replying to criticism with "I know it's not perfect but..." is making it seem like someone made the demand that PC should be perfect (which is a ridiculous demand, of course).

So what the statement does is it shifts the focus of the discussion from what was said to something else. Also it seems to say "I aggree with you" but it's not (because PC being a game was never in question). It downplays/ dismisses the issues that have been raised and paints the poster in a bad light (only stupid unreasonable jerks would demand perfect games in a world where perfection doesn't exist!).

If it's true that you know PC is not perfect you should be able to simply acknowledge an issue. It might not bother you, alright. But if you want to defend PC come with real arguments. (Btw. I don't think PC (or Frontier) needs to be defended.)

TL;DR It's a common fallacy to misrepresent what has been said ("I know it's not perfect...") to make it easier to attack ("but...").

"I know it's not perfect but" is taken extremely out of context in almost all cases of its appearance here. Your argument would be totally valid if people were using it like you describe, but they aren't.

It would be more honest to say that people like me for example are coming out with "I know this game isn't perfect, but your attitude is unreasonable". You're way oversimplifying by removing that bit of context from what people are saying; it makes it sound like all the people who are actually enjoying themselves are just idiot yes-robots built by Frontier to defend their honour or whatever.

It's enormously frustrating for me as a user of this forum and as a player of the game to be treated by every detractor like i'm some kind of unreasonable sheep just because I have something positive to say. If any of those group actually went and read my posts, you would see that I have a loooong list of criticisms about this game, and I have been thorough in voicing them - or I have agreed with someone else who has articulated the same points as me.

What gets me, and I think this is consistent among most of the users here, is the flagrant disrespect to the developers from the small but vocal group to which I am referring. I run my own business as an electrician so I often have people working for me or with me, and I can tell you as sure as my poop is brown that you do not get people to be productive if you talk to them like they are a piece of crap. I don't give a toss if you're mad that the game isn't how you like it, you are not going to make a group of people productive by dropping your crap on them from a height. It just doesn't work. All the people who've worked for me, LIKE WORKING FOR ME. That's because I create a positive environment and I pay well. Don't get me wrong now, if someone makes a mistake they are expected to fix it - but I don't get them to fix it by standing over them and shouting, while repeatedly kicking them in the butt. It just doesn't work, and it maddens me to see these forums turning into that kind of cesspool of negativity and butt-kicking.

If anyone who thinks all the people who like this game are 'planco isn't perfect, but' sheeple, I invite you to go through a few pages of the search; It is replete feedback threads from people who love the game but hate a feature. There are people with intelligent minds, thinking critically about an underlying system, gaining a true understanding of it, then coming out and talking at length about what they think of it and how it can improve the experience of all the players. You'll actually find some really useful and interesting threads from people who really care about the game and its systems, rather than a small crowd of entitled children who just want to hear their voice over everyone else's.

 

[seeker7]

Pointing out people's use of language is really scraping the bottom of the barrel now. We get it, you'll never be happy. I know about the expression "don't feed the troll", but in this instance I had to respond, because I think you're just completely out of order. People actually do like the game you know? Consider for a second that that could be the reason why they word their posts in such a way that you don't agree with. (not to mention that many people here, some of whom are great friends of mine, do not have English as their first language). I've made a good number of complaints myself about things I am not happy with, in both the game and Frontier. But when it comes to attacking people's use of language, then you are really digging deep for ways to turn this forum to ❤︎❤︎❤︎❤︎. I know Planet Coaster is not perfect but I love it.

Nope, I am 100% serious about what I've said. Why do you think are we getting in the same old silly debates in almost every thread? This is one of the reasons.

Oh, and are you even aware that you attack me personally in your post? Is that the kind of "constructive criticism" you wanna see more of on here? Way to have a mature discussion!

It's alright with me that people like the game. I'm serious, good for you. There's whole threads just pointing out what players like. But it's not fair and it doesn't even make sense to use that as an argument to defend PC from criticism. In this case (I am talking about this specific context) it's more a fanboy's catchphrase than anything else.

I don't think being a native speaker or not has anything to do with it (it's more about logic and validity of arguments) but especially in this case it can't hurt to be aware of what you're saying.

"I know it's not perfect but" is taken extremely out of context in almost all cases of its appearance here. Your argument would be totally valid if people were using it like you describe, but they aren't.

It would be more honest to say that people like me for example are coming out with "I know this game isn't perfect, but your attitude is unreasonable". You're way oversimplifying by removing that bit of context from what people are saying; it makes it sound like all the people who are actually enjoying themselves are just idiot yes-robots built by Frontier to defend their honour or whatever.

I've stated specifically the context of my critique. The cases it doesn't apply it does not apply.
But say someone says the game was released unfinished because this or that is missing what do you get a couple posts later? Exactly, "I know it's not perfect but..."

Just the other day someone posted again something like "I know it has flaws but i like it" (different wording but everything I've said above applies). That was the whole of their argument countering "the game still has many bugs and issues". Don't tell me something like this is about the way criticism is phrased.

There are some rude posts, I know, but the majority is not. And still some people are reacting badly to them. Having something negative to say about PC is bad attitude/ disrespecting the devs according to them. You can't just act like the two were totally separated.

Did you read that one post in response to a list of issues FMX posted and he was actually told that he should've said some nice things about PC too? Felt sorry for the dude, I think this was when he started posting tons of [happy]s. That's how far the sillyness goes.)

What gets me, and I think this is consistent among most of the users here, is the flagrant disrespect to the developers from the small but vocal group to which I am referring. [...]

It just doesn't work, and it maddens me to see these forums turning into that kind of cesspool of negativity and butt-kicking.

If anyone who thinks all the people who like this game are 'planco isn't perfect, but' sheeple, I invite you to go through a few pages of the search; It is replete feedback threads from people who love the game but hate a feature. There are people with intelligent minds, thinking critically about an underlying system, gaining a true understanding of it, then coming out and talking at length about what they think of it and how it can improve the experience of all the players. You'll actually find some really useful and interesting threads from people who really care about the game and its systems, rather than a small crowd of entitled children who just want to hear their voice over everyone else's.

Especially the criticism of criticism on here is rude and over-the-line. People tend to get personal and I don't understand how this is supposed to be ok in any case.

You called members of this community "entitled children". And complain about being made out as an idiotic yes-robot sheep? Double standards much? What do you want me to say to that? (Just for the record, I don't think I've ever called anyone an idiot sheep and it certainly wasn't my intention with the OP.)

 

[Crowdpleaser]

I have never in my life read such pointless drivel. What are you even trying to achieve? Another Thread that goes in circles? An opportunity to fish for Posts that you can twist as personal attacks? Threads like this expose you as the Troll you are.

 

[Yaffle]

Folks

Two things - please cut out the personal comments and I am moving this to off topic as it clearly has nothing to do with the game itself.

 

[PlanetChris]

I'm not sure if this thread is about the use of the sentence "I know it's not perfect but..." anymore or if it's a thread in which you critisize each other.
I'm pretty sure everybody knows, that there is no perfect game out there - it's kind of impossible to develope a game without bugs for thousands of users.
But I will not get into this thematic right now.

I want to reply, because I want to remeber you to stay friendly - you're "attacking" each other because of a different opinion.
If you want, you can discuss about the opinion, but please stop getting personal, this is nothing that helps the friendly atmosphere we want to have in this forum - or don't you want to have a friendly atmosphere?

Now a short reply to the sentence "I know it's not perfect, but...":
I haven't seen it that often and I think everyone should be allowed to write whatever he/she wants.
To be honest, I personally think, that a thread to critisize the language skills/use of others isn't a thread we need in this forum.[sad] (I'm not from a country with english as first language, too, so my english is not perfect, too)
Maybe it's getting on your nerves, but you can't prohibit them to use this sentence. - just ignore it.

And again @everyone: Please stay friendly and do never get personal!!!

 

[seeker7]

I want to reply, because I want to remeber you to stay friendly - you're "attacking" each other because of a different opinion.
If you want, you can discuss about the opinion, but please stop getting personal, this is nothing that helps the friendly atmosphere we want to have in this forum - or don't you want to have a friendly atmosphere?

Now a short reply to the sentence "I know it's not perfect, but...":
I haven't seen it that often and I think everyone should be allowed to write whatever he/she wants.
To be honest, I personally think, that a thread to critisize the language skills/use of others isn't a thread we need in this forum.[sad] (I'm not from a country with english as first language, too, so my english is not perfect, too)
Maybe it's getting on your nerves, but you can't prohibit them to use this sentence. - just ignore it.

And again @everyone: Please stay friendly and do never get personal!!!

I appreciate you speaking out on behalf of friendliness but I'm not willing to share blame here. I have not made rude attacks or insulted anyone personally and just want to make that clear, just in case someone only read the latest posts.

Chris, I am not forbidding anyone to speak their mind nor am I critisizing language skills. I've pointed out why replying to criticism with something along the lines of "It's not perfect but fun" does not make sense and is (logically!) not a counter argument.

 

[PlanetChris]

I've pointed out why replying to criticism with something along the lines of "It's not perfect but fun" does not make sense and is (logically!) not a counter argument.

That's true, but because of your explanations, etc. it sounded to me like you don't want to see this sentence again in any thread and it's getting on your nerves.
You're completly right, that such a sentence isn't helpful in a discussion about an issue.
I think it's most of the time a statement, because something above sounded like someone thinks the game isn't good or whatever and they want to write anything to this topic and defend the game.

You're right, that this sentence isn't helpful, but I'm still up with my opinion, that I think, that this thread is not needed, sorry. [ugh]
Everyone is allowed to write what he/she wants, unless it's against the forum rules, and if they can't write anything more helpful, just ignore their reply and everything is fine. [happy]

The main thing I wanted to point out is the fact, that the replys above got more and more personal. And I wanted to try to stop this and remind everyone up there, not just you to stay friendly.
As example, we don't need replys like: "Threads like this expose you as the Troll you are."
Like I wrote above: Please reply without getting personal!

 

[danijami23]

I appreciate you speaking out on behalf of friendliness but I'm not willing to share blame here. I have not made rude attacks or insulted anyone personally and just want to make that clear, just in case someone only read the latest posts.

Chris, I am not forbidding anyone to speak their mind nor am I critisizing language skills. I've pointed out why replying to criticism with something along the lines of "It's not perfect but fun" does not make sense and is (logically!) not a counter argument.

Come on now, you KNOW that isn't true. If you have made a decision to change your attitude towards others then that is commendable, but it's unbecoming to lie to members of the forum about your behaviour. You are the only person I have seen have a 'banned' strikethru through his name, and I have on more than two occasions seen posts of yours be deleted by the mods because they were insulting and adversarial. To say that you aren't guilty of bad behaviour simply isn't true.

EDIT: I've searched through previous posts for keywords that I know were contained in pretty mean posts you made, only to find they are gone. Again, if you are embarrassed that you made those posts that is indeed human, but it's wrong to lie to everyone, especially given that you are refusing to 'share blame' as you put it.

EDIT EDIT: changed a word that wasn't rude but got hearted. Don't want to make it look like I'm swearing at you.

 

[seeker7]

such a sentence isn't helpful in a discussion about an issue.
I think it's most of the time a statement, because something above sounded like someone thinks the game isn't good or whatever and they want to write anything to this topic and defend the game.

If you're right the most logical thing would be to not want to read it ever again in such a context.

 

[tyczj]

 

[Wablamo0821]

https://68.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lu3whtrzYr1qby2i8o1_250.gif

Don't give up... Make sure it's cream cheese frosting though otherwise I'll still be grumpy

 

[Ray Cox]

Nope, I am 100% serious about what I've said. Why do you think are we getting in the same old silly debates in almost every thread?

Because you won't let it go.

 

[PlanetChris]

Seems like this thread will never come up with anything useful.[where is it]
I think a mod should close this thread.

 

[SoapyIllusion]

This thread is really silly. You can make the same arguments about people who keeping on saying how much they hate the game. They keep repeating themselves. People have the right to love the game if they like. They spent somewhere around 44 dollars, if they want to enjoy it, let them. Just like if you want to hate the game (or something in between),you paid 44 dollars go ahead.

While we are on the topic of language and semantics, "OP" I feel like that term in itself holds very little merit. Considering what people say the "OP" is what the majority of topics are on this fourm. Most of which are talking about the concerns they have with Planet Coaster. Yet when you look at Steam Reviews , critic reviews they paint a very different picture. There are 1,000s of people playing this game that have never been on the fourm at all.

Everyones entitled to their own opinion. However I say keep things respectful and more importantly tactful. Dont spew the same lines like a broken record. Also don't say things like "I want my money back" or "why did you stop playing the game" . If you have an concern to address, say it. Say it without insults, say it with reasons, say how you think it can be fixed. People who enjoy the game feel alienated when people ramsack it every second of everyday. Considering its generally the same people. While most people do mean well, some people just complain and will never stop complaining.

I find it odd that people don't play the game after its out but still come to the fourm daily just to complain more...

 

[seeker7]

Everyones entitled to their own opinion. However I say keep things respectful and more importantly tactful.

don't say things like "I want my money back"

This thread is really silly.

Respect and tact? Everyone is allowed their opinion? [weird] Look at your post, read the others in here.

You can make the same arguments about people who keeping on saying how much they hate the game.

You can, as soon as they jump in a "Reasons I love PC"-thread and discuss issues they have with the game. You won't find many people who hate PC on here though.

Anyways, you're deflecting from the issue brought up in the OP.

 

[breezerHOG1]

i noticed this is titled part 1, when can i expect part 2?

 

[seeker7]

Give people some time to digest, cool off. Truth hurts - just look at all the hate and personal attacks. I'll notify you. [wink] [cool]

 

[Crowdpleaser]

Give people some time to digest, cool off. Truth hurts - just look at all the hate and personal attacks. I'll notify you. [wink] [cool]

Pff

Since when is your Opinion the "Truth"?