PvP Latency, P2P and PvP...

Hellfire85

Hellfire85
tiny question as it doesn't happen to me very often, but how do you guys deal with issues like, getting out of firing line but getting hit despite being clearly out of the projectiles trajectory?

Getting hit despite dodging the shots and seeing the enemy firing in a different direction is kinda... frustrating xD

Talking about getting hit by PAs btw
 

Truesilver

Truesilver
It's annoying but you just have to put up with it.

I've only found it a really major problem in some of the Betas, when I've sometimes lost a quarter of my health to a collision with an opponent (on my screen) 500m away.
 

SushiCW

SushiCW
It's unfortunately simply the reality we have to deal with to play multiplayer.

Even traditional client-server games have these sorts of issues. Trying to resolve two temporally disconnected versions of reality in real-time is always going to result in some awkward disconnects.
 

Gusty

Gusty
Download/upload "problems" causing lag is a well known "issue" no matter if p2p or client.
As old as pvp in multiplayer games.
I would say upload "problems" on your opponents side, or download " problems" on your side.

Edit:
The only solution is to avoid/ignore players with this problems
 
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Han_Zen

Han_Zen
There is a compromise between performance and getting as many as possible into an instance with someone else.

If ED was a traditional PvP game with client/server and localized servers, you would never select a server that pinged above 30 m/s. Having a similar requirement as a a hard cap for instancing, would make ED a very lonely experience.
 

Gusty

Gusty
It was/is possible to play jumpgate from worldwide on 1 server very fine.
There have been 2 servers in the beginning EU and US, only one at the end US and now still one Russia.
And this was with bandwith from 20 years ago. ISDN
 
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Agony_Aunt

Agony_Aunt
Worth noting that latency is also a problem with full C/S as well as P2P.

Sometimes P2P can be even better than C/S (and sometimes worse). For example, sometimes C/S is like when you live in Scotland and need to go to the local shop for a pack of cigs, but the only road goes via London, but with P2P you can instead unlock a road that takes you a minute to travel.

C/S does tend to work better once you start adding more people, but its highly dependent on ensuring no bottlenecks on the servers and pipes, and that tends to cost if you want to ensure quality.

I'm playing Fortnite at the moment (which is C/S), and sometimes the game just freezes when i get a lag spike, sometimes for up to a minute. I can return to the game to discover i've run over a cliff or been ripped apart by husks. And yes, people complain that Epic should spend more money on the servers to ensure a better experience.

In short, P2P and C/S both have advantages and disadvantages, and neither is perfect.

Gusty said:
It was/is possible to play jumpgate from worldwide on 1 server very fine.
There have been 2 servers in the beginning EU and US, only one at the end US and now still one Russia.
And this was with bandwith from 20 years ago. ISDN
Click to expand...

I would say we are sending a lot more data these days in games as well. Take a look at the issues Star Citizen is facing with its networking because of the demands for fidelity.
 

Han_Zen

Han_Zen
Gusty said:
It was/is possible to play jumpgate from worldwide on 1 server very fine.
There have been 2 servers in the beginning EU and US, only one at the end US and now still one Russia.
And this was with bandwith from 20 years ago. ISDN
Click to expand...

Bandwith isn't important. Latency is.

You can play fine on a high ping server, if game play is sufficiently slow.

In WoW you can probably do fine with 300 m/s latency. In Battlefield you start to hurt at about 25 m/s. In Counter strike I would guess it's at 15 m/s.

You can to some degree use prediction to beat the pure physics but you get jumping, when the game predicts wrong.
 

Gusty

Gusty
The gameplay in jumpgate should be the same as ed.
We had fights up to 100 ships in a sector. Pilots from all over the world on 1 server.
Ships with lower bandwith or upload/download "problems" were causing lag, but only on this ships. Were jumping.
If i play ed in a wing, my targets are jumping too, due to my bandwith (3g mobile), the other wing members are ok.
So i have no clue whats about latency.

Edit:
I have to say that i need sometimes to start the game 3 times new to see or to be able to chat with friends in ed. Or getting into the same instance with my wing.
No problems in jumpgate. Global chat, privat chat, wing chat, and visible pilots.
 
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Han_Zen

Han_Zen
Gusty said:
The gameplay in jumpgate should be the same as ed.
We had fights up to 100 ships in a sector. Pilots from all over the world on 1 server.
Ships with lower bandwith or upload/download "problems" were causing lag, but only on this ships. Were jumping.
If i play ed in a wing, my targets are jumping too, due to my bandwith (3g mobile), the other wing members are ok.
So i have no clue whats about latency.

Edit:
I have to say that i need sometimes to start the game 3 times new to see or to be able to chat with friends in ed. Or getting into the same instance with my wing.
No problems in jumpgate. Global chat, privat chat, wing chat, and visible pilots.
Click to expand...

Latency or Ping is the time it gets to get an answer from your host. On mobile is very high. Your band width on 3G is probably plenty.
As ED is P2P, one of your wing mates will act a the host. He will report to you where the NPCs are.
You get the report late, because of your connection. Because of this, your client tries to ‘guess’ the NPCs position. When it guesses wrong and has to correct, the ships jump.
 

Roybe

Roybe
Han_Zen said:
Latency or Ping is the time it gets to get an answer from your host. On mobile is very high. Your band width on 3G is probably plenty.
As ED is P2P, one of your wing mates will act a the host. He will report to you where the NPCs are.
You get the report late, because of your connection. Because of this, your client tries to ‘guess’ the NPCs position. When it guesses wrong and has to correct, the ships jump.
Click to expand...

Han is correct and since this is a space related game...maybe this will help out!

When it comes to learning about latency a satellite internet connection is the best thought experiment.

Regardless of how much bandwidth the provider gives you, latency will always be an issue with a satellite connection because of physics.

Your computer generates a packet for issuance to the internet.

Even traveling near light speed, it still takes a second to upload that packet to the satellite and then another second to download it to the receiving satellite, more time to move it through the receiving system and onto the internet..where another few ticks occur, the packet response is returned to the satellite sending station, 2 more seconds up and back to your receiving end of the satellite...and you can see that the latency in satellite systems means no multiplayer games are playable and single player online games are very slow.

With mobile solutions (cellular hotspots), the send and receive times are much shorter, but even in 'slow twitch' games, could be problematic.

Latency is lower with a wireless router than cellular...but there is still a send/receive step between machine and router.
 
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Han_Zen

Han_Zen
Roybe said:
Han is correct and since this is a space related game...maybe this will help out!

When it comes to learning about latency a satellite internet connection is the best thought experiment.

Regardless of how much bandwidth the provider gives you, latency will always be an issue with a satellite connection because of physics.

Your computer generates a packet for issuance to the internet.

Even traveling near light speed, it still takes a second to upload that packet to the satellite and then another second to download it to the receiving satellite, more time to move it through the receiving system and onto the internet..where another few ticks occur, the packet response is returned to the satellite sending station, 2 more seconds up and back to your receiving end of the satellite...and you can see that the latency in satellite systems means no multiplayer games are playable and single player online games are very slow.

With mobile solutions (cellular hotspots), the send and receive times are much shorter, but even in 'slow twitch' games, could be problematic.

Latency is lower with a wireless router than cellular...but there is still a send/receive step between machine and router.
Click to expand...

If you have 2 seconds latency and try to shoot a ship moving at 500 m/s, you will miss by 1000 m.

That's physics, not net code.
 

Roybe

Roybe
Han_Zen said:
If you have 2 seconds latency and try to shoot a ship moving at 500 m/s, you will miss by 1000 m.

That's physics, not net code.
Click to expand...

This discussion is also ignoring the problems of the 'internet backbone' where hundreds of miles of internet distance can be between next door neighbors..and problems of routing packets along that 'backbone'.

To the OP, there is nothing that can be done for these problems...they are inherent in all online games...the real difference in P2P games is there is much more variability between players, their machines, and the internet between them, than a client/server situation.
 
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Gusty

Gusty
All i say, is that there is no problem with jumpgate on a server, but ed p2p is not playable for me in open.
So if you say bandwith is not the problem, also the amount of data, which is sure higher in ed should not be a problem.
My wing mate who invites me is in germany as me. The jumpgate server is in Russia.
The latacy should be worse to/from Russia. There was also no problem to play on the server in US.
So p2p has definetly more problems than client/server. Not speaking about the player number restrictions.

Edit:
What happens if the game will send more data than the bandwith can transmit ? Does this not also affect the latacy ?
I am sure it does. If i have a "fast" conection, the game loads faster, the mission board loads faster etc.
 
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Han_Zen

Han_Zen
Gusty said:
All i say, is that there is no problem with jumpgate on a server, but ed p2p is not playable for me in open.
So if you say bandwith is not the problem, also the amount of data, which is sure higher in ed should not be a problem.
My wing mate who invites me is in germany as me. The jumpgate server is in Russia.
The latacy should be worse to/from Russia. There was also no problem to play on the server in US.
So p2p has definetly more problems than client/server. Not speaking about the player number restrictions.

Edit:
What happens if the game will send more data than the bandwith can transmit ? Does this not also affect the latacy ?
I am sure it does. If i have a "fast" conection, the game loads faster, the mission board loads faster etc.
Click to expand...

You probably have an ok connection to the sever in Russia. On a client server game, that's all that matters.
Loading will be faster(to a point) if you have better bandwidth.
 

Herbrand

Herbrand
I try to make my path less predictable and change my vector shortly before I know my opponent will fire his PA's - other than trying to outmaneuver him there isn't much more we can do.

This, and after a Salty Mc SaltFace accused me of cheating following of a desync, I always record my PvP encounters.
 

Frenotx

Frenotx
Han_Zen said:
If you have 2 seconds latency and try to shoot a ship moving at 500 m/s, you will miss by 1000 m.

That's physics, not net code.
Click to expand...
Indeed. I've got excellent internet, but there have been countless times where I've been perpendicular, above, and behind an enemy (looking directly down at a corvette's bridge for instance), and been getting nailed by their gimbals. It doesn't take much for problems to start getting visible, and the crazy 40%+ increase in speed from the engineers has make these issue all the more obvious.
 
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