Lets Chat About DLC

[DrowningStar]

So, I have a bone to pick with this current reveal of the spooky DLC, the state of this game, and the developers. Coaster sim games have been around for a while, we all know this, and Frontier made one of the most iconic ones, which is RCT3. RCT3 set the bar in terms of content, gameplay, and aesthetics. An amazing game with an even more amazing community. Frontier literally set the bar themselves.

Now let's jump to PC, Frontier revving up the coaster sim genre yet again with a bar setting game. Amazing aesthetics, some little issues with the physics but that's okay, and limited scenery. But they made a promise: they will flesh out the game, they understand it is incomplete. Afterall, we're in a different era of game developing, and they know what they've made for RCT3. More IS coming. And it has! We've gotten some good free content, and some good paid content as well. But we're still short on generic scenery that even RCT3 had at its base game, and extremely short on any type of interior scenery, as well as dark ride stuff. All things that were promised was coming.

Surprise, it's here! Finally. But wait. It's $10.99. Essentially, $11. 1/6th of the full price of the game. For a generic holiday pack that we essentially got for free (the winter update) last year. For a fleshed out theme that existed in RCT3 when the game came out. Now, let me make this clear; I'm not against paid content. The previously paid content I thought was fine. It's not an essential item to have, players, can play without it if they want. However, this is not the same. This has stuff players NEED to have, stuff that should have been included in the game IN THE FIRST PLACE. I find this rather exploitive of their fanbase, and quite honestly disheartening. Maybe if it were 5 bucks I would feel differently, but 11 bucks is not cheap, especially if this is how other more important packs are going to be in the future. This will really add up, and the unfinished base game that still doesn't even have the features of RCT3 (hello, low/no friction? Do I really need to type in a cheat code to utilise this every single time?) is not cheap either.

How do you guys feel? The content itself looks awesome. But this just not feel right to me. I understand money needs to be made, but exploiting your user base by dividing it up by who can afford basic items and who can't sucks, that's just the honest truth. I expected to see this as another free update because of how important it is. I mean I saw chairs! Indoor lamps! Tables! Picture frames and mirrors! Stuff that is essential to building anything indoor. I have to pay 11 dollars to build a basic interior without using objects are handcrafted out of other things that look slightly wonky. It just blows.
What do you guys think? Anyone else feel the same? Or, do you feel differently? What are your thoughts?

Suggestions/info:
1. Generic rides/coasters as a base: Release generic rides and coasters for free as the base, then sell different themed skins (spooky, western, etc etc).

2. Basic items should be free: the game lacks items for interior creations. Give us some base items so people aren’t forced to buy stuff just to get some chairs and paintings, “working benches and tables, more fence types, interior items, get to work on figuring out a way we can darken our dark rides without jamming them 100 feet underground, (maybe a wall type that blocks outside light?)” (Reddit: Justin-krux)

3. City Skylines: Went the route of smaller DLC packs. The outcome: Players can become behind in content which will ostracize new players and players returning after taking breaks from the game.

4. People are more comfortable with 3-5 dollar packs, versus 11 dollar packs.

5. The more smaller DLC packs that are released, the less blueprints people will be able to download.

6. Big expansion packs instead of smaller DLC packs: RCT3 had SOAKED and WILD, which were expansions that added a lot of new content all at once instead of sprinkled throughout. Just about everyone supports this method of releasing content instead of releasing smaller packs that costs 10/11 dollars. Smaller packs will lead to a ton of money being spent by your players. If there are 10 packs that cost 10 dollars, that’s already 100 dollars your players are paying to get these new items. Not really the best route if you value your players. RCT3 has such a strong fan base, let’s translate that over to PC.

7. Be clear, throrough, and upfront about the future of this game its upcoming content. Don't be vague, or use vague language that keeps technicalities up in the air.

8. Release basic interior decor items for free, as well as a small collection of spooky items (some tombstones, skeletons, and basic haunted house building set).

 

[shaneturner12]

I can't read your post very well unfortunately due to the colour of the text. In terms of friction (one of the few bits I can read clearly) I'd suggest you wait until the Frontier Expo as I did see some mention of a slider being added.

Shane

 

[seeker939]

DLC is where the money is. These first few packs are more than half of what the base game cost. [woah]

(Well, not if you got the early bird special. [haha])

 

[Snodge Snoodle]

The scenery aspect of the game is not why I bought PC. I came here for the coasters and the game play. When I read "simulation evolved" I imagined creating complex coasters packed with even more features than RCT3. I imagined in depth management with so much information to dig into and mull over. I imagined the guests would have some real decision making skills based on what I build.
Sadly after my initial pleasure of how great the game looks graphically, I was left underwhelmed.

So as for DLC scenery packs, I'm simply not interested because the underlying game is just dull as dish water. I would gladly pay for DLC if it actually added more features to improve creativity with regards to coasters and management.

The past free updates that gave us coaster chains and the firework sequencer were a nice token gesture, but fell way short on my expectations. Lots of people were asking for dueling coasters thinking they would get the ability to use multiple coaster stations like we could in older games. Sadly they just made it so we link two separate coasters together with a dispatch timer. It was the cheapest way they could have possibly done it, and it was not what we were hoping for.
The same thing can be said for the horrible sequencer. People were asking for fireworks expecting to bring back the nostalgia of the Mixmaster timeline in RCT3, but with added finesse. What we got was the coaster trigger system with the triggers replaced with delay timers. Making timed displays to music is just pure evil, convoluted and tedious.

I wish they would listen to us and give us what we were asking for instead of cheaply fudging in features pretending they are what we want.
If Frontier was tasked with making a device to boil water they wouldn't give us a kettle, they would give us a tin bucket, a bunch of twigs, a magnifying glass and a cloudy day. Sure it will boil water eventually under the right conditions but who would find it compelling to use over a kettle.

I would rather they charge for game features and functions that are actually good and not just some retweaked code, and let the community make scenery mods.

So for me I won't be buying scenery packs because the base game is just not interesting enough to warrant spending hours moving scenery around. It's a shame because I really want to play but I'm just not enjoying the game.

I have lost hope that I will ever enjoy the game as a simulation, and if decorating is going to be the only point of the game then they have lost me as a customer because they are not offering what I would like.

 

[danijami23]

One word: Avarice. Braben has surrounded himself with a team of incredibly talented designers so that he can sell amazingly Pretty, yet empty games. Pretty sells well, Frontier makes a fortune, Cedar Point cash in as well, shareholders meeting goes well. Rinse repeat.

 

[Ramm]

So, I have a bone to pick with this current reveal of the spooky DLC, the state of this game, and the developers. Coaster sim games have been around for a while, we all know this, and Frontier made one of the most iconic ones, which is RCT3. RCT3 set the bar in terms of content, gameplay, and aesthetics. An amazing game with an even more amazing community. Frontier literally set the bar themselves
Now let's jump to PC, Frontier revving up the coaster sim genre yet again with a bar setting game. Amazing aesthetics, some little issues with the physics but that's okay, and limited scenery. But they made a promise: they will flesh out the game, they understand it is incomplete. Afterall, we're in a different era of game developing, and they know what they've made for RCT3. More IS coming. And it has! We've gotten some good free content, and some good paid content as well. But we're still short on generic scenery that even RCT3 had at its base game, and extremely short on any type of interior scenery, as well as dark ride stuff. All things that were promised was coming.
]Surprise, it's here! Finally. But wait. It's $10.99. Essentially, $11. 1/6th of the full price of the game. For a generic holiday pack that we essentially got for free (the winter update) last year. For a fleshed out theme that existed in RCT3 when the game came out. Now, let me make this clear; I'm not against paid content. The previously paid content I thought was fine. It's not an essential item to have, players, can play without it if they want. However, this is not the same. This has stuff players NEED to have, stuff that should have been included in the game IN THE FIRST PLACE. I find this rather exploitive of their fanbase, and quite honestly disheartening. Maybe if it were 5 bucks I would feel differently, but 11 bucks is not cheap, especially if this is how other more important packs are going to be in the future. This will really add up, and the unfinished base game that still doesn't even have the features of RCT3 (hello, low/no friction? Do I really need to type in a cheat code to utilise this every single time?) is not cheap either.
How do you guys feel? The content itself looks awesome. But this just not feel right to me. I understand money needs to be made, but exploiting your user base by dividing it up by who can afford basic items and who can't sucks, that's just the honest truth. I expected to see this as another free update because of how important it is. I mean I saw chairs! Indoor lamps! Tables! Picture frames and mirrors! Stuff that is essential to building anything indoor. I have to pay 11 dollars to build a basic interior without using objects are handcrafted out of other things that look slightly wonky. It just blows.What do you guys think? Anyone else feel the same? Or, do you feel differently? What are your thoughts?

This was the original post so people with phones etc can read it too

 

[tyczj]

.....This has stuff players NEED to have, stuff that should have been included in the game IN THE FIRST PLACE.....

Says who..you?

I dont need this stuff.

Just because you think it should have been in the game from the start does not mean it should have.

 

[seeker939]

Says who..you?

I dont need this stuff.

Just because you think it should have been in the game from the start does not mean it should have.

I don't think it makes sense to argue about individual items if they should or shouldn't be expected to be in the base game. But one way or the other there's a general sentiment the game is incomplete (not just assets, also features etc.). And if you look alone at the gaps in the scenery and building menu you might understand why.

The way Frontier is communicating (if they comment at all) doesn't help. Everytime it came up the devs have insisted the spooky theme wasn't removed from the base game, it was included with the fairytale theme. Well, here's you haunted house DLC now, for $$ of course.

People had high hopes not just for the game but for Frontier and the development process of the game. The disappointment is understandable.

 

[tyczj]

I don't think it makes sense to argue about individual items if they should or shouldn't be expected to be in the base game. But one way or the other there's a general sentiment the game is incomplete (not just assets, also features etc.). And if you look alone at the gaps in the scenery and building menu you might understand why.

The way Frontier is communicating (if they comment at all) doesn't help. Everytime it came up the devs have insisted the spooky theme wasn't removed from the base game, it was included with the fairytale theme. Well, here's you haunted house DLC now, for $$ of course.

People had high hopes not just for the game but for Frontier and the development process of the game. The disappointment is understandable.

I am just saying I hate when people say things should have been in the game from the beginning, that is their opinion and their opinion is not the companies opinion

 

[Bo Marit]

I don't think it makes sense to argue about individual items if they should or shouldn't be expected to be in the base game. But one way or the other there's a general sentiment the game is incomplete (not just assets, also features etc.). And if you look alone at the gaps in the scenery and building menu you might understand why.

The way Frontier is communicating (if they comment at all) doesn't help. Everytime it came up the devs have insisted the spooky theme wasn't removed from the base game, it was included with the fairytale theme. Well, here's you haunted house DLC now, for $$ of course.

People had high hopes not just for the game but for Frontier and the development process of the game. The disappointment is understandable.

Hiya, here's the part in yesterday's livestream where I explain how the concept phase of a game works, and why the spooky folder (a legacy folder with a few items pieces) was visible during alpha. Hope that clears things up for you [heart]

https://youtu.be/PiWiVO-BYHU?t=2501
(Min 41:41)

 

[seeker939]

Hiya, here's the part in yesterday's livestream where I explain how the concept phase of a game works, and why the spooky folder (a legacy folder with a few items pieces) was visible during alpha. Hope that clears things up for you [heart]

https://youtu.be/PiWiVO-BYHU?t=2501
(Min 41:41)

I'm aware of how the process of game development works so your remarks in the video make perfectly sense. My point is, the perception is what the problem is. No offense to you, Bo, but so far I don't think Frontier's PR/marketing/communication strategy is particularly great.

The community has been expecting a horror theme to be part of the base game since before release. Many expected it to be added as a free update for Halloween. After the previous free updates this even more seemed like a reasonable assumption. Why did it seem like a good idea to let the community believe this for almost a year?

I really do think that if there had been more transparency about the whole DLC strategy there wouldn't be such an outcry now.

Many feel the game is still incomplete, you guys have assured us "more is coming". But at this point nobody has a clue as to what can or cannot be expected in the future. Being completely in the dark is what makes new DLC an even more sensitive matter. But I don't have to tell you.

Anyway, I hope you guys take the chance of FrontierExpo to maybe take a bit of a different approach.

 

[smelly]

I just wanted to say to frontier that I'm glad the game is being supported with further free and paid content. I will be purchasing this stronger looking dlc to show support and increase my enjoyment of the game. I purchased the game at release and was happy to commit based on what was on offer at the time and I'm looking forward to buying extra content.

I recently returned from a self catering holiday and didn't expect to get into the half board restaurant for free.

 

[R315r4z0r]

Not really relevant, but just wanted to interject on what the OP said:

No friction should not be a readily available option. It HAS to remain a cheat code. There is no such thing as "no friction" so it makes no sense for it to be an option.

Now, low friction is a different story. That's fine as long as it bumps up the running costs of the ride a considerable amount.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

I'm aware of how the process of game development works so your remarks in the video make perfectly sense. My point is, the perception is what the problem is. No offense to you, Bo, but so far I don't think Frontier's PR/marketing/communication strategy is particularly great.

The community has been expecting a horror theme to be part of the base game since before release. Many expected it to be added as a free update for Halloween. After the previous free updates this even more seemed like a reasonable assumption. Why did it seem like a good idea to let the community believe this for almost a year?

I really do think that if there had been more transparency about the whole DLC strategy there wouldn't be such an outcry now.

Many feel the game is still incomplete, you guys have assured us "more is coming". But at this point nobody has a clue as to what can or cannot be expected in the future. Being completely in the dark is what makes new DLC an even more sensitive matter. But I don't have to tell you.

Anyway, I hope you guys take the chance of FrontierExpo to maybe take a bit of a different approach.

You have to be honest though...You are using the words "expectations" and "assumption".
These are all influenced by each user, and not the same for each user.
Your expectations and assumptions about this process are different than mine.
You are asking Frontier to manage them.

Frontier tried, and is in a pickle now. After all the uproar about the initial announcement of paid DLC, they came out with a statement: "Don't worry, they will be cosmetic". They should have never responded at all. Did "they will be cosmetic" only apply to the first DLC release? Whose to say? There is two ways to interpret that. Either all DLC will be cosmetic, or the first DLC will be cosmetic. I think this is why Frontier tries to keep quiet. Whatever they say will get thrown back at them in one way or another, based on interpretations of what was said. We've seen that again and again here.

"Many feel the game is still incomplete," Many feel otherwise. *shrug*

"But at this point nobody has a clue as to what can or cannot be expected in the future." Plans change. Backlash to changes is why they probably are not giving us a roadmap. Why put themselves into that tough position?

Would I love a roadmap? Absolutely!
Do I understand why they won't give one? Absolutely!
I am managing my expectations.

 

[pwc1]

I persobally dont have high expectations on a game. And as far as DLC's, if the pack interests me, I'll buy it.

 

[TheWhiteWhale]

I am a little divided on this particular DLC. While I agree that a base spooky theme pack is something which should have been free, the amount of free great content we have received so far makes me a little less resistent to this particular DLC pack. What I'm hoping for is that this doesn't become a trend going forward. I hope Frontier continues to proved free DLC, and saves paid DLC for either 1.) Purely cosmetic and/or licensed content (ala BttF, Knight Rider, etc.) or 2.) Significant additions and expansions to the game (I'm thinking of water park content, animal content, maybe hotel management/content, etc.). Frontier has built up enough good will with me over the past year that I will pay for this pack, but if it starts becoming a trend, my support will quickly wither. I'm particularly happy at the announcement of an omni-mover lite dark ride system--something which I've been waiting for since PC was in Alpha. If this pack was purely cosmetic, I don't think I'd be paying for it. But dem dark rides bruh!

I honestly miss the old days of large costed but larger in content expansion packs. I would much rather pay $20-30 for a full and complete proper expansion, complete with game-changing content additions, balance changes, bug fixes, etc. rather than pay $10 every time a mediocre content pack such as this is released. My main concern is that this may become the standard DLC model going forward. I don't want Frontier to start charging for cosmetic and theme packs which, IMO should already be in the game. While it makes business sense, it's not particularly fair for the customer base--most of which have been incredibly supportive and positive about Frontier. I would like to see a few more standard theme packs released as Free DLC. Themes like Jungle/Rainforest/Polynesian, Ancient civilizations (Egypt, Rome, Greece), Victorian/"Olde Main Street", and even modern themed packs should be Free DLC (some themes still need more content to fully flesh them out--I'm looking at you Wild West[tongue]). Keep paid DLC for major content like Water Parks, Animals/Zoo elements, Live Show/Projection Ride creators, etc.

And one final note for Frontier, can we get some more of your great animatronics? They add a lot of detail and life to my dark rides but we need more of them! As a matter of fact, if you want a good idea for a paid DLC, give us an animatronic creator!

 

[NiceGuyAndy]

Can’t read OP on iPad because of colour of text

Regarding DLC? It’s on Steam, wait for Steam sale, get it on discount in a years time, ??????, profit. Don’t know why so many people complained about the prices on the forum, it’s not like you have to buy it Day 1. It’s optional.

I also don’t understand the dividing the workshop argument either.. no matter what they add it would always divide the workshop from people who have it, and those who don’t? At the end of the day, what would you prefer, paid content as well as some free content thrown in, or no content at all? Because someone has to pay the bills, else the team would just move onto a new product.

I’ve not bought any DLC so far, I’m not really a builder so it hasn’t appealed to me so much. But I’ll probably pick it up on sale at some point. The Halloween DLC pack looks pretty cool though.

 

[DrowningStar]

MY BAD!

Hey, guys!

I really apologise for the crappy text. Such a silly mistake. I've fixed it, and I've also taken some info/suggestions from both commenters on here and on reddit and put them in the first post. My goal here is to have some civil conversation, as we all know that gaming has changed the way things are released have as well. In some cases, for the worst and not the better. RCT3 maintained an incredibly strong community, and I would hope to see that translate over to PC. That means both the players and Devs should be working together to keep the community strong and as undivided as possible.

Please continue to share your thoughts and feelings. Both sides matter and I hope that maybe something good will come out of it. Currently, I still believe the small DLC packs really hurt the players and the player base more than anything else. This will also affect the long-term base as well, as I wrote in the suggestions/info part of the updated original post where I used City Skylines as an example. This is how I feel, I did pay for the game (as have the rest of you), so our feelings are not invalid. You're completely allowed to disagree!

Please keep it civil [heart]

 

[Eaglefan9727]

And as far as DLC's, if the pack interests me, I'll buy it.

That is how everyone should look at the DLC's packs. However, there will always going to be a group of people that think every update should be free.

 

[Spanky]

IThe community has been expecting a horror theme to be part of the base game since before release. Many expected it to be added as a free update for Halloween.

Who says, that we didn't see a free update in October? I think it will be called Fall Update or Autumn Update. Did we get Parasols or Beach Chairs in the Summer Update? Did we get Tulips or Easter Eggs in the Spring Update? No! So how could we expect a free Halloween Update for October? Only just because of the bigger Holiday Update with the Festive Theme in Winter? I have seen the Winter Update as a kind of christmas gift, which has made it more special as the other ones.

Think about real Themeparks. A lot of us spend each year a lot of money for entrance into these parks just to ride the newest coaster or attraction in this parks. No-one of would say ... "Hey I have paid last year for the entrance and now I want to see the new themed area and ride the new coaster for free". Break that just down to the game.