Lets reinvent trading

I think its time that we though about how trading can be made a proper simulation with variety, depth and challenge rather than the extremely simplistic and gamey mechanics that we currently have.

I can only imagine that the inhabitants of the elite galaxy build everything from gold and palladium and eat proginator cells and slaves since the vast majority of trading activity seems to involve moving these high value cargos around often in poorly armed civilian ships. Meanwhile the essentials like food medicines and fuel seem to be magically available to the galaxies populous despite the fact that seems to be largely uneconomical for anyone to actually move them. I mean every station and outpost has fuel available but according the games mechanics in many ships it cost you more in fuel to move it than the profit you make from doing so.

So in order to have something that we can call a trading simulator with a straight face I suggest that we need to do two things:

1) Remove the "hidden magic hand of the curator" and let true supply and demand loose on the galaxy.

Simply put if noone trades in fuel because there is not enough profit then demand will simply rise until there is. Yes there are NPCs supposedly trading but who exactly are these NPCs who are ferrying fuel around the galaxy at a loss ?.

Now some might counter with "but doesnt this mean that profits will be the same for all types of cargo" possibly - but even if this were true is it really any worse that 90% of the commodities being pointless. However I believe this will not happen and this is where the second part of my suggestion comes in:

2) Commodity types have characteristics that impact trading.

I propose to give most of the tradable commodities a set of characteristics that introduce various challenges to moving them around:

  • Temperature sensitive - degraded when ship temp exceeds a certain limit.
  • Fragile - damaged by excessive g-forces applied to ship (e.g. impacts).
  • Perishable - degraded by time out of station. Either gradual (e.g. food), abrupt after a certain time (e.g. slaves).
  • Volatile - will explode/burn causing additional damage when taking cargo hatch damage or significant hull damage.

I think its fairly obvious how these can applied but an examples would be proginator cells needing super stringent enviroment controllers which cannot cope with high temperaures, computer components being fragile, fuel and munitions being volatile (take a few hits to you cargo hold and ... boooom) etc.

Traders can pick cargo with a set of characteristics that appeal to them e.g. those whole like a race against the clock can go for perishables, those that like to fly slow steady and bump free: fragile, those who like to dice with death: volatile etc.

It should be noted that there can probably be a bigger and better thought out set of characteristics than I've come up with here so please refrain from nit-picking on technicalities of those, I'm more interested in peoples reactions to the general concept I have outlined.
 
1. the supply and demand doesnt seem linked to price, I pay the same sometimes from a station that has high supply as I do from a station with low supply. the supply and demand maths needs sorting.
2. It would make sense to move commodity types around you would need a module, so you cannot transport slaves until you have an oyxgen breathing tem controlled humanity module etc.
 
Oh dear, another "proper supply and demand" thread that gets bulk cargo wrong. Let me get some popcorn, anyone want butter or salt?

[…] so you cannot transport slaves until you have an oyxgen breathing tem controlled humanity module etc.

Slaves are transported in stasis capsules. Imperial slaves are more "upmarket" and supposed to be treated like passengers, so they will likely be subject to changes if and when passenger gameplay is released. It generally makes a lot of sense to implement "special needs" like pressurisation or temperature control into the container unless you're talking about transporting huge volumes in specialised vessels.
 
It generally makes a lot of sense to implement "special needs" like pressurisation or temperature control into the container unless you're talking about transporting huge volumes in specialised vessels.

Wouldn't that be your life support system, pretty much? At least in the broad understanding it takes care of temp, pressure and air composition.
 
These proposals would give you less incentive to transport certains goods, when what we need are more incentive to trade anything else than palladium and progenitor cells. I would much rather see tweaks that made all the other commodities worthwhile to trade. Such as food - when a system is starving, any food products should sell for premium prices.
 
1. the supply and demand doesnt seem linked to price, I pay the same sometimes from a station that has high supply as I do from a station with low supply. the supply and demand maths needs sorting.
2. It would make sense to move commodity types around you would need a module, so you cannot transport slaves until you have an oyxgen breathing tem controlled humanity module etc.

I think that's partly dependent on the system selling said goods, and the surrounding systems. I've seen a lot of goods I trade in vary quite a bit in buy price and sell price, depending on where I am, and how much trading is being done in the area. I trade in mostly metals, and the price of gold in the region I am in goes up and down pretty regularly. Though less so with the buying price.

I'm not disputing the post though, or the OP. I'd like to see a more accurate approach.
 
Oh dear, another "proper supply and demand" thread that gets bulk cargo wrong. Let me get some popcorn, anyone want butter or salt?



Slaves are transported in stasis capsules. Imperial slaves are more "upmarket" and supposed to be treated like passengers, so they will likely be subject to changes if and when passenger gameplay is released. It generally makes a lot of sense to implement "special needs" like pressurisation or temperature control into the container unless you're talking about transporting huge volumes in specialised vessels.

So traipsing around with the same 3/4 commodities without any overt challenge associated with it is all you want from the game then ?.

Anyway I think its a reasonable hand-wavery to assume that self contained cargo modules can only protect the contents within certain limits once outside the more controlled environment of the station.

I also worked for Maersk for a while and can tell you that container shipping in the real world is quite a complicated art, with a lot of cargo getting damaged, water leaks, falling off the ships in a storm, refrigeration units failing etc.
 
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I like the ideas above.

The perishable goods idea is a cracking idea. Interdictions can turn Slaves into Animal meat :-]
Having a dynamic to your load is tops.

I was thinking that the weight vs volume thing is a bit off. We haul Gold/Plat/PE's etc as there is a larger profit per tonne to be had. Looking at some of the "lighter" commodoties I have seen incredible % profits that can be made, but it's still nowhere near comparable. Like who's gonna haul 200t of Biowaste, brought for 20, sold for 100? 80 per tonne is a huge margin but at the same time is rubbish. The only way to make such a trade viable is to increase how much biowaste we could haul compared with the 2k/tonne we can do with the top stuff.
 
Wouldn't that be your life support system, pretty much? At least in the broad understanding it takes care of temp, pressure and air composition.

In a passenger ship maybe, but on a cargo ship it would make preciously little sense to pressurise the cargo compartment. All that would do is make the ship heavier and more vulnerable. If you want to ship, say, a load of grain, you'd put it into an insulated container and pump some nitrogen in there to achieve a fairly low pressure (some 10km MSL would be entirely enough) atmosphere.

What I could imagine is a fairly low temperature coolant cycle or two (one refrigerating, one at around 4–10°C) in the cargo bay that containers can be hooked up to to avoid extreme heat or cold for sensitive goods.
 
These proposals would give you less incentive to transport certains goods, when what we need are more incentive to trade anything else than palladium and progenitor cells. I would much rather see tweaks that made all the other commodities worthwhile to trade. Such as food - when a system is starving, any food products should sell for premium prices.

See part 1 of the proposal - the profit of every commodity would rise to the point where people started to trade it.
 
I was thinking that the weight vs volume thing is a bit off. We haul Gold/Plat/PE's etc as there is a larger profit per tonne to be had. Looking at some of the "lighter" commodoties I have seen incredible % profits that can be made, but it's still nowhere near comparable. Like who's gonna haul 200t of Biowaste, brought for 20, sold for 100? 80 per tonne is a huge margin but at the same time is rubbish. The only way to make such a trade viable is to increase how much biowaste we could haul compared with the 2k/tonne we can do with the top stuff.

So you're proposing massively pressurised biowaste, essentially? Oh dear me, when that punctures...
 
A real dynamic trade system: This is what I expect. Not magical price barriers. It's funny how you earn more profit from hauling Bertrandite than Fruit&Vegs to a refinery station that is starving. Pretty much noone trades in any other metal than gold or Palladium, and yet there's still more profit in that than hauling copper or aluminium.

If you have an Agriculture economy and a Industrial economy, and everyone just keeps trading Tobacco, the profits from trading Tobacco should drop and the profits from trading other agricultural products should rise until it would be stupid to trade in Tobacco. Even with low demand, you still usually get more profit from Tobacco trade.

There doesn't seem to be any result of food shortages. I've been to places with no commander visits, high food demand for all types, bulletin board full of ''Help we are starving'' and yet they happily trade in Bertrandite and Palladium. Food? Nah, sell us Catalyzers instead.
 
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I would like to see more variety in the base price of commodities. Think IRL. On my salary I could probably buy 1 ton of fish, I have at least 1 ton of scrap in my garage - but 1 ton of gold? 1 ton of platinum? Or narcotics? 1 ton of gold should cost like a million credits, give 10.000 in profit, traded only by the very brave, rich and stupid. The sort of end-game in trading. If someone left a station with gold in their hold there should be whispers among NPC pirates, and numerous interdictions. A T9 full of gold would be a mythical occurence, leaving tales of spanish gallions when it's blown up. It could also make mining more of a fun lottery. Imagine the forum posts with "I mined a ton of gold!!!"
"Normal people" in Cobras and T6s should trade food, base metals and machinery.
 
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