Let's talk about dogfighting

[Maelthor]

Interesting about the AI not using FA/off, I never knew that, which is funny considering how much i've played the game. I just assumed that when chasing a conda and it would do the amazing fliperoo 180 in its own wake that it was using FA/off, because that's the only way i've ever done it, other than when playing certain "drifty" ships like the Courier or FDL that can pull powerslides with enough pips to engines.

Anyway this isn't really an AI complaint thread, that wasn't my point in the OP at all. I just wondered what FD could do to help define ship roles better.

I'd be happy with a ship like say, the FDS being a potato in space but having exceptional atmospheric handling (which it may yet end up having when they allow landing on planets with atmospheres), and maybe the ability to target ground targets like skimmers etc. It IS a dropship after all. One wouldn't ideally bring such a ship to a space battle if one had options to better ships for that role.

 

[Darrett]

NPC's fly according to the same rules as humans. Cmdr's are just being outmatched and then complaining about it. I guarantee the bulk of them haven't done any PvP

I don't buy this. Even with maneuvering thruster use and blue zone throttling, certain NPCs in FDLs or Cobras were consistently able to turn as well as my DBS. Shortly after, same rating of NPC, and it couldn't turn nearly as well. Thruster mods are the only possible variable there.

I haven't played since the hot fix to remove engineer mods went in, though, so it may be improved.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Interesting about the AI not using FA/off, I never knew that, which is funny considering how much i've played the game. I just assumed that when chasing a conda and it would do the amazing fliperoo 180 in its own wake that it was using FA/off, because that's the only way i've ever done it, other than when playing certain "drifty" ships like the Courier or FDL that can pull powerslides with enough pips to engines.

When talking AI 'fa off' isn't really much of a thing because FA off is pretty much a human specific thing. Theoretically speaking, if you had an amazing brain with massive 3D computation power and full analog control over all thrusters you can mimick pretty much any FA off manouver. But we dont have that, so we use FA off for it. Thats why most people can master the 'fa off turn' in a few minutes when trying it for the first time, whereas we would spend insane ammounts of time replicating that basic feat using manual control. For an AI this doesn't matter as it doesnt have '3D intuition', so its easier to make them use their thrusters rather than program the human intuition that makes us use FA off for the same things.

As for fairness: you'll find that if you'd face-off one of the PvP aces in the exact same ship and loadout, they have the same 'cheats' and 'superpowers', as others call it. Thats also why there is a pretty strong correlation between skill and encountered 'NPC cheats': they apparantly 'cheat' a lot more when fighting mediocre pilots. Nasty NPCs!

 

[Kneejo]

I wonder how much the AI uses FA-off, and how much they actually use the blue zone in the throttle, which indicates the optimal speed for optimal turnrate.
Check out this fight, a turning dogfight basically, between two similar ships, and the only way I could get the upper hand was by boosting away and using FA-off at a certain point.
(and by using turret beams The first part of the fight is a turning fight, where the AI keeps pace with my attempts at optimal turns.

[video=youtube;b3tJNHptup4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3tJNHptup4[/video]

 

[Kneejo]

When talking AI 'fa off' isn't really much of a thing because FA off is pretty much a human specific thing. Theoretically speaking, if you had an amazing brain with massive 3D computation power and full analog control over all thrusters you can mimick pretty much any FA off manouver. But we dont have that,...

Actually, our brains are still 10x more capable supercomputers than the fastest supercomputers currently existing. We all know the idea of muscle memory.. the name suggests this is actual memory in the muscles, but in reality it's the ingraining in our brains of the things our body does repetitively. That's how we become better and better the more we play Elite. We're teaching that supercomputer in our head to make all those little movements with our hands, that we don't even think about anymore after a while. Fly with FA-off from the start of your Elite carreer and you will best anyone at it who has not practiced as much as you. Most people, including me actually, choose for flying with FA, because yeah well, it's the 34th century.. FA-off is soo 20th century appollo/space-shuttle stuff.

 

[Bill Clement]

Coming at this from a flight sim angle:

We pull some amazing manoeuvres when landing on outposts. Amazingly stupid, amazingly bad, yeah, yeah, laugh it up... The ships FD have given us can do incredible things. Just out of curiosity, whenever I have a point of reference- usually an outpost- I've been practicing 'terrestrial' manoeuvres. It's possible to pull a very tight Chandelle even with all the clag that surrounds a station, for instance, even in a FDS. A Cuban Eight without the worry of speed management, stalling or motion sickness (for the actual flyers out there!) works well close to the surface of most moons. Barrel rolls change your orientation just the way they should. And so on...

I'm wondering if it's possible to use any of this against the AI? I tried a little the other night, playing a little PvP with friends. They stuck with turreting- just following my manoeuvres with their nose- and jousting. I could get out of their line of fire, but getting them back under my guns proved difficult. Well, I'm a bit of a n00b, it's to be expected! End result was a bunch of rebuys, but with a little practice I think I could use at least some of what I've learned in flight sims on human opponents. The question is whether it would make a blind bit of difference to NPCs? A human pilot can see the opponent change direction and guess at what's coming next, but would an AI with a fixation on pitch up under any and all circumstances be able to do the same?

 

[DaggerSnake]

I think that even with FA-OFF there are different pitch rates for ships. It just feels like that to me. When you're in a Diamondback vs a Cobra vs an Eagle flying all with FA-OFF, the rate of spin feels different.

For ED some of the other things to remember in a dogfight is boost increases pitch rate and recharge of boost cap is a significant factor for dogfights. If you get a engine priority upgrade and faster thrusters, then you can stick on someones tail. If you have more frequent and faster boosts, then you will have maneuverability advantage with or without FA. I think pip management can make a difference. We tend to just set 4 to shields and shoot, but I think that every pass and turn the AI will be changing those. I've been using voice attack more to quickly go 4 to engines then 4 to weapons, back to 4 on systems when under fire, back to 4 to engines for a boost ect..it's really helped against AI for me.

 

[ilo]

there is a big misconception between FA off and all thrusters regarding the AI. NPCs are using all thrusters, vertical and lateral as well, regardless using FA. Just this gives them a huge advantage when fighting regular -throttle only- players.

lateral/vertical thrusters + boost gives NPCs the same extra turn rate a player has, and makes ships like FDS rotate as fast as a FAS when just pitching. Don't have any videos here with me but I may try to collect afew examples, I see this every now an then.

by the way, I disagree NPCs are making the fight a jousting game. I've found they joust when you are within certain distance and in front of them, I've never seen them doing ramming attacks from the bottom, top or sides. If you leave your vertical thruster fires while rotating your target the NPC will boost only to get out of there, again, no videos but it happens to me all the time.

But certainly what I've found after watching some videos of people fighting is, AI is not jousting, people boosting randomly/all the time makes the fight a joust. Knowing how to use the boost button is really important in a fight, specially learning when NOT to use it.

 

[Zeta Legion]

*Shrug* Since 2.1 pretty much every fight in my Corvette plays out the same way; NPC does their best to pitch at me while flying towards me (jousting). I haven't been intentionally rammed but I've had a few FDLs explode against my hull and sometimes Anacondas 'lock horns' with me at point-blank range and seems incapable of letting go unless I do so. Combat has devolved into a one-dimensional game whereby you simply try to pitch fast enough (with FAoff, thrusters, boost, whatever) so that you can shoot the NPC a few times before he zooms past, and the process repeats in perpetuity until somebody is dead. Now I may not be the best pilot out there, but I have a few tricks up my sleeve (I have to, as nearly every enemy I have run into since the patch is an Elite/Deadly Anaconda/FDL/Python). And yet, it seems like no matter what I do every fight plays out like this. It's just impossible to outmaneuver the AI for any length of time except against Pythons, which seem to have trouble winning the pitching battle.

 

[tawittle]

The AI was a bit of a shock at first but I honestly feel like it is ridiculously easy once again.

Just learn the AI tactics and adapt...flying backwards doesn't work anymore so don't do it. You have to learn how to boost and FA off and you can "boom and zoom" on any AI in any ship no problem.

 

[Maelthor]

*Shrug* Since 2.1 pretty much every fight in my Corvette plays out the same way; NPC does their best to pitch at me while flying towards me (jousting). I haven't been intentionally rammed but I've had a few FDLs explode against my hull and sometimes Anacondas 'lock horns' with me at point-blank range and seems incapable of letting go unless I do so. Combat has devolved into a one-dimensional game whereby you simply try to pitch fast enough (with FAoff, thrusters, boost, whatever) so that you can shoot the NPC a few times before he zooms past, and the process repeats in perpetuity until somebody is dead. Now I may not be the best pilot out there, but I have a few tricks up my sleeve (I have to, as nearly every enemy I have run into since the patch is an Elite/Deadly Anaconda/FDL/Python). And yet, it seems like no matter what I do every fight plays out like this. It's just impossible to outmaneuver the AI for any length of time except against Pythons, which seem to have trouble winning the pitching battle.

That's been exactly my experience since 2.1. It's not bad per se...and I do find it mostly fun, but it does seem to be the same scenario regardless of ship choice, which is a tad unfortunate. Overall though I think the combat in 2.1 has been a massive improvement.