Let's talk Shock Cannons . . .

[60mm]

Many times have I wanted a Shock Cannon focused Ship as they just sound so fun and look so damned good. And every time, I jump onto Coriolis to try some stuff out and realize, again, why I never do. Ammo. I'm pretty sure this alone is why Shock Cannon use is virtually non-existent.

A C2 Fixed Shock Cannon has a Damage capacity of 3,328, while a stock non-Engineered Fixed C2 MC has a Damage capacity of 4,840. So, off the bat, you can not spend nearly as much time in your local Hazres having fun. Once you compare it to a G5 OC MC at ~6,069, it has nearly half the Damage capacity, and this isn't even taking into account Experimentals like Corrosive.

Then the Synth cost. Basic Reload for a MC consists of 5 G1 Raws. The Shock Cannon? 2 G1 Raws, 3 G1 Mftr, 2 G2 Mftr, and 6 G3 Mftr. Taking into account that Shock Cannon Syth gets you 50%-70% of the Damage capacity that MC Synth does . . . oooooof.

Spoiler: It's a real shame when the Shock Cannon is hands-down one of the best looking weapons in the game.

So my Suggestion? Either keep the Ammo Capacity as-is and heavily reduce the Synth cost, or a very healthy Ammo capacity boost along with a reasonable Synth cost reduction. I think keeping Ammo Capacity as-is and making Synth reasonable would be the way to go, as the Shock Cannon's potential DPS is high enough that intervals between Synth should probably not be reduced. With the Frag Cannon's very similar revision history, I think it very reasonable to hope FD would implement this.

It's a shame that the Shock Cannon is only feasible for those who have their Fleet mostly Engineered and are swimming in Mats. It's no surprise, given it's current state, that this gorgeous weapon is largely forgotten. Next time I'm getting sauced, I will poor one out for my Graphic Designer homey whose sweat gave birth to this forsaken beauty.

 

[Azmuth Divarchchron]

I always found the shock cannon a strange and very underwhelming weapon especially with damage calculations after its limited ammo capacity. If It had a more reasonable amount of ammo id probably use it.

 

[khalismur]

I'd use it if it was automatic. Could fill a role of a medium range semi-burst weapon. Not as much sustained DPS as a MC, but much more spike. What kills it for me is the need to fast click. That's so stupid....
I know it's not a good weapon choice for minmaxers, but I often chose my ships and weapons based on what I like. The idea and visuals of the Shock Cannon are awesome.

 

[60mm]

I'd use it if it was automatic. Could fill a role of a medium range semi-burst weapon. Not as much sustained DPS as a MC, but much more spike. What kills it for me is the need to fast click. That's so stupid....
I know it's not a good weapon choice for minmaxers, but I often chose my ships and weapons based on what I like. The idea and visuals of the Shock Cannon are awesome.

Making Shock Cannons automatic would negate the MultiCannon, and there's always macros . . . I have Dupuytren's, so I don't feel bad about using macros for cases like these, but really don't care if others do anyways.

 

[khalismur]

Making Shock Cannons automatic would negate the MultiCannon, and there's always macros . . . I have Dupuytren's, so I don't feel bad about using macros for cases like these, but really don't care if others do anyways.

Let's say one manages to fire Shock Cannon at the maximum fire rate until either the magazine empties or temp>100%. Does firing a MC continuously for that same amount of time does more damage? I always thought MCs could fire much longer but had less DPS. Guess that's not the case?

 

[space voyager]

Many times have I wanted a Shock Cannon focused Ship as they just sound so fun and look so damned good. And every time, I jump onto Coriolis to try some stuff out and realize, again, why I never do. Ammo. I'm pretty sure this alone is why Shock Cannon use is virtually non-existent.

A C2 Fixed Shock Cannon has a Damage capacity of 3,328, while a stock non-Engineered Fixed C2 MC has a Damage capacity of 4,840. So, off the bat, you can not spend nearly as much time in your local Hazres having fun. Once you compare it to a G5 OC MC at ~6,069, it has nearly half the Damage capacity, and this isn't even taking into account Experimentals like Corrosive.

Then the Synth cost. Basic Reload for a MC consists of 5 G1 Raws. The Shock Cannon? 2 G1 Raws, 3 G1 Mftr, 2 G2 Mftr, and 6 G3 Mftr. Taking into account that Shock Cannon Syth gets you 50%-70% of the Damage capacity that MC Synth does . . . oooooof.

Spoiler: It's a real shame when the Shock Cannon is hands-down one of the best looking weapons in the game.

So my Suggestion? Either keep the Ammo Capacity as-is and heavily reduce the Synth cost, or a very healthy Ammo capacity boost along with a reasonable Synth cost reduction. I think keeping Ammo Capacity as-is and making Synth reasonable would be the way to go, as the Shock Cannon's potential DPS is high enough that intervals between Synth should probably not be reduced. With the Frag Cannon's very similar revision history, I think it very reasonable to hope FD would implement this.

It's a shame that the Shock Cannon is only feasible for those who have their Fleet mostly Engineered and are swimming in Mats. It's no surprise, given it's current state, that this gorgeous weapon is largely forgotten. Next time I'm getting sauced, I will poor one out for my Graphic Designer homey whose sweat gave birth to this forsaken beauty.

I love your use of spoilers. It is shocking!

 

[60mm]

Let's say one manages to fire Shock Cannon at the maximum fire rate until either the magazine empties or temp>100%. Does firing a MC continuously for that same amount of time does more damage? I always thought MCs could fire much longer but had less DPS. Guess that's not the case?

Putting aside Heat for simplicity, the DPS for Fixed C2 of either for one entire Clip plus Reload time is 27.4 for Shock Cannon and 11.9 for Multi-Cannon. Of course, this is assuming you are clicking the Shock Cannon trigger 10/s. G5 OC the MultiCannon, however, and it comes in at 20.1. Considering the difficulty in attaining the high DPS on the Shock Cannon, I think it's fair to say that the MultiCannon is the superior option if one is concerned about performance.

It seems apparent that FD chose to cripple the Shock Cannon's Ammo Capacity and Synth cost to balance out it's potential DPS, but a little number crunching and a bit of realistic expectations shows that this crippling does not stand on firm ground. In fact, now that I've crunched some numbers myself, I would even say it would be reasonable to reduce the Shock Cannon's punishing reload time of 6s as well, though the Ammo issue remains absolutely the biggest problem.

I love your use of spoilers. It is shocking!

The Shock Cannon looks so good, I have a Courier decked out with them that I really only dust off sometimes to gawk at. Taking it out to HazRes is fun, but the fun is so brief I rarely bother making the trip.

 

[Sylow]

Making Shock Cannons automatic would negate the MultiCannon, and there's always macros . . . I have Dupuytren's, so I don't feel bad about using macros for cases like these, but really don't care if others do anyways.

Making them automatic would not negate MCs at all. When i tested shock cannons, i saved my joystick by using the profiling tool. I've set one button to emulate a mouseclick every 0.05 seconds. That's double the speed the shock cannon can fire, so it fires at maximum rate. (At 0.1 seconds you loose speed due to syncinc. In pure theory, you could still loose some at 0.05 and could gain a little more by going to 0.02 seconds. But i wasn't able to notice any difference between them, so i went with the slower one. )

So with a macro at hand, the weapon is automatic. And yet the MC is the generally better weapon. I hold the button, the shock cannon fires at maximum speed till i release the button, ammo runs out or the capacitor is drained. But it also quickly adds up spread and creates heat. So to be effective, i have to have fire discipline. Hold fire till I am sure to be to be on target. Check heat before firing, to make sure not to boil myself. It's a skillcheck. It's quite different to Multi-Cannons, where i don't mind to hold the trigger a second early. Even if i miss some shots, the weapon just keeps firing. It doesn't overheat me or drain my capacitor and has enough ammo in the weapon so missing a few shots doesn't matter. That's easy mode, it is highly effective while requiring less control and thus less skill than the Shock Cannon.

So as long as i use Shock Cannons properly, understand the distance to the target, know how much i can allow the spread to ramp up and apply trigger discipline, it's a good weapon. (Although it actually is not better than MCs for me, due to MCs also delivering good damage while being so much more forgiving. And then the MC has plenty of ammo while the SC will run out after a few kills. )

Turning the shock cannon into an automatic weapon would just do one thing: it would make it useful for everybody, without giving those with trigger scripts an advantage. It would not eliminate any other skillcheck on the weapon, so it would still be very distinct.

Mind you, with this being the only upgrade in place, the MC will still be the vastly better weapon. If it wouldn't, i'd be using the shock cannon more. Some other upgrades might also stil be nice to have. But finding the right spot for that weapon, considering that it's non-engineered, might not be too easy. But merely eliminating the "fire button script advantage" by making it automatic and forcing people to have trigger discipline sounds like a perfectly fine first step to me, without any real downsides.

Putting aside Heat for simplicity, the DPS for Fixed C2 of either for one entire Clip plus Reload time is 27.4 for Shock Cannon and 11.9 for Multi-Cannon. Of course, this is assuming you are clicking the Shock Cannon trigger 10/s. G5 OC the MultiCannon, however, and it comes in at 20.1. Considering the difficulty in attaining the high DPS on the Shock Cannon, I think it's fair to say that the MultiCannon is the superior option if one is concerned about performance.

It seems apparent that FD chose to cripple the Shock Cannon's Ammo Capacity and Synth cost to balance out it's potential DPS, but a little number crunching and a bit of realistic expectations shows that this crippling does not stand on firm ground. In fact, now that I've crunched some numbers myself, I would even say it would be reasonable to reduce the Shock Cannon's punishing reload time of 6s as well, though the Ammo issue remains absolutely the biggest problem.

I fully agree here. While you hint at it, i think you should even more clearly state that the MC can also effectively deliver its DPS, while for the Shock Cannon the value is purely theoretically. You'd have to be glued right to your targets hull to deliver it, at any noticeable distance the spread will force you to stop firing and let your weapons recover. Which very much cuts down your DPS. While the breaks are harder to calculate, i feel that you end up with DPS only slightly superior to a non-engineered MC.

 

[BradHann]

The shock cannon is not supposed to be used to hose the target. Everything about it should tell you that. The jitter that gets worse the more you fire, the massive heat buildup, the low ammo count, the glacial reload time but autoloader effect... it's supposed to be fired in short bursts. It doesn't need ammo increase (although I agree the synth cost is ridiculous). What it needs is something to make sure every shot counts - either make it do absolute damage, or give it more built-in experimentals (a small amount of phasing, maybe some scramble spectrum).

 

[SciTrekker]

Doesn't the description in Outfitting for shock Cannon say it's intent is knocking a ship off course than doing damage?
Sorry, I'm not in game to check but that's what my sometimes bad memory is telling me the description says.

 

[Sylow]

Doesn't the description in Outfitting for shock Cannon say it's intent is knocking a ship off course than doing damage?
Sorry, I'm not in game to check but that's what my sometimes bad memory is telling me the description says.

That's the force shell modification of the cannon. The shock cannon is a completely different weapon. It's all about burst damage.

The shock cannon is not supposed to be used to hose the target. Everything about it should tell you that. The jitter that gets worse the more you fire, the massive heat buildup, the low ammo count, the glacial reload time but autoloader effect... it's supposed to be fired in short bursts. It doesn't need ammo increase (although I agree the synth cost is ridiculous). What it needs is something to make sure every shot counts - either make it do absolute damage, or give it more built-in experimentals (a small amount of phasing, maybe some scramble spectrum).

Unfortunately, as 60mm also already explained above, even it's burst damage is only slightly better than what a MultiCannon can deliver on target, while paying a huge price for this small damage advantage.

Also, the thread is not about making it adequate to the MultiCannon. At least not in my eyes. But currently the MultiCannon outperforms the ShockCannon even in those very specific sitations, where the ShockCannon supposedly is optimized for. So some improvements would really be a good idea for that weapon. Which improvement is the right way to go can be discussed and probably in the end is a matter of taste, though.

 

[Bigmaec]

Yep, shock cannons are both awesome and crap.
Please FD at least multiply ammo by 1.5

 

[Rubbernuke]

Yep, shock cannons are both awesome and crap.
Please FD at least multiply ammo by 1.5

Its a symptom of all the tech broker stuff really, it needs a good looking at so they become useful enough to bother unlocking.

 

[Bigmaec]

Its a symptom of all the tech broker stuff really, it needs a good looking at so they become useful enough to bother unlocking.

True. Except c4 corrosive resistent racks I can't think about any useful items.
Guardian stuff is better, but could still need a buff (full set bonus hint hint)

 

[Rubbernuke]

True. Except c4 corrosive resistent racks I can't think about any useful items.
Guardian stuff is better, but could still need a buff (full set bonus hint hint)

Spot on. Problem is then though you are scratching the paint away from engineers- for example the guardian PP and distro combo....if engineering was a flat experimental like boost the combo would be an excellent choice, but with G1 to 5? Straight into the bin.

 

[60mm]

The shock cannon is not supposed to be used to hose the target. Everything about it should tell you that.

The Clip capacity and Reload time makes sure that one will never being hosing down a target.

It doesn't need ammo increase (although I agree the synth cost is ridiculous). What it needs is something to make sure every shot counts - either make it do absolute damage, or give it more built-in experimentals (a small amount of phasing, maybe some scramble spectrum).

Making it absolute damage and landing every single shot won't change what keeps it collecting dust on the shelves. A very brief time you can use it before absolutely pillaging your Mats for Synth. No one wants to head out to the HazRes for 3 minutes of fun before having to head home.

Also, the thread is not about making it adequate to the MultiCannon. At least not in my eyes.

Sylow is correct that this isn't about making them comparable to MultiCannons.

Making them automatic would not negate MCs at all.

I only mentioned that making the Shock Cannon automatic would make direct comparisons between it and the MultiCannon relevant. Were the Shock Cannon to be made automatic, people would wonder why bother when you can have an Engineerable automatic? And then there's the Enforcer. If you want slow heavy dakka, why bother with the Enforcer when the Shock Cannon comes in Gimballed and other Classes? The Shock Cannon's firing mechanics is one of the things that makes it unique, it should be kept. For those that want automatic/burst on the Shock Cannon (like myself due to my Dupuytren's), there are always macros. But we can't macro back in it's current mechanics, which I think are neat. If it weren't for my tard hands, I'd have a blast with it.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Crazy idea: why not give Shock Cannons the plasma slug ability? From memory the weapon is partly energy based.

 

[60mm]

Crazy idea: why not give Shock Cannons the plasma slug ability? From memory the weapon is partly energy based.

I like Plasma Slugs, but Small Ships would feel the pain. My triple Shock Cannon Courier could possibly end up with less ammo than before haha.

 

[SciTrekker]

Doesn't the description in Outfitting for shock Cannon say it's intent is knocking a ship off course than doing damage?
Sorry, I'm not in game to check but that's what my sometimes bad memory is telling me the description says.

That's the force shell modification of the cannon. The shock cannon is a completely different weapon. It's all about burst damage.

I looked again when I played last night. I was thinking about Shock Mines. Has FD explained how "shock" acts differently with different weapons (that's my feable mind has interpretted the descriptions)?

 

[Vedmo]

Determined to find a use for them, I ended up putting 2m & 2l on one of my Python cargo builds (other large is a beam).

They work good for that, where combat will only be a few pirates before I'm docking again. I'd be better of with pretty much anything else, which is a shame, but at least I sometimes get a chance to actually use the dang things.