General / Off-Topic Lies told to Norway before they rejected EU membership [BREXIT] [VOTE EXIT]

Cosmo · May 19, 2016

Lies told to Norway before they rejected EU membership [BREXIT] [VOTE EXIT]

A few clips of how Norway was told the same lies that are being told to the UK.

[video=youtube;i-UbT0g9A8c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-UbT0g9A8c[/video]

Clip taken from Taking the Fear out of Brexit" Documentary (full length)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiUkyAb2L7o

Patrick_68000 · May 19, 2016

In France it is the same system of intimidation

Robert Maynard · May 19, 2016

The EU has a vested interest in maintaining / increasing the size of the EU.

.... if only they would manage to get their payment error proportion down to acceptable levels....

Minonian · May 20, 2016

The real problem with EU is simple you can't increase it's size with the current management style, it's just reached its limits.

X-Terminator · May 20, 2016

Countries have gone soft by importing too much. Time to build ones own borders again and learn how to survive alone more. It's the same as our Housing Development. They only build more around towns whilst there's already ample for sale in the centre yet they infrastructure for sewage can not cope and results in mass flooding - all because of corrupt planning permission!

Chris Simon · May 20, 2016

Minonian said:
The real problem with EU is simple you can't increase it's size with the current management style, it's just reached its limits.

I don't think so. State's economy can reach a limit, the borders can reach a limit. A state is more or less physical thing.

But EU? Physically, EU is just bunch of buildings with lots and lots and LOTS of clerks and bureaucrats inside. The buildings and bureaucrats are specifically made to allow huge rivers of money to flow through and, sometimes, create ponds and lakes inside...

Patrick_68000 · May 20, 2016

Chris Simon said:
I don't think so. State's economy can reach a limit, the borders can reach a limit. A state is more or less physical thing.

But EU? Physically, EU is just bunch of buildings with lots and lots and LOTS of clerks and bureaucrats inside. The buildings and bureaucrats are specifically made to allow huge rivers of money to flow through and, sometimes, create ponds and lakes inside...

Rivers, ponds, lakes, closed to the public for the bathe ?

Surfinjo · May 20, 2016

Minonian said:
The real problem with EU is simple you can't increase it's size with the current management style, it's just reached its limits.

Yes.

What the EU needs is a strong leader.

Someone who can command respect.

Someone who can march rather than walk. Who has clothing and a hat, that commands respect. Who knows a good, simple symbol. Who can wear a moustachio to show he's a real man, but nothing too over done, a tooth-brush moustachio.

But where can we find such a fine fellow?

Hmmmmm.

DanaM · May 20, 2016

Surfinjo said:
But where can we find such a fine fellow?

Hmmmmm.

US republican pres candidate? Oh, wait, he's already booked...........maybe if he loses?

Flash_Baggins · May 20, 2016

Surfinjo said:
Yes.

What the EU needs is a strong leader.

Someone who can command respect.

Someone who can march rather than walk. Who has clothing and a hat, that commands respect. Who knows a good, simple symbol. Who can wear a moustachio to show he's a real man, but nothing too over done, a tooth-brush moustachio.

But where can we find such a fine fellow?

Hmmmmm.

Oooh! ME! ME! PICK ME!

Patrick_68000 · May 20, 2016

Surfinjo said:
Yes.

What the EU needs is a strong leader.

Someone who can command respect.

Someone who can march rather than walk. Who has clothing and a hat, that commands respect. Who knows a good, simple symbol. Who can wear a moustachio to show he's a real man, but nothing too over done, a tooth-brush moustachio.

But where can we find such a fine fellow?

Hmmmmm.

A man of this caliber only comes once by century

Marra Morgan · May 20, 2016

X-Terminator said:
Time to build ones own borders again and learn how to survive alone more.

Like the Juche ideology, right?

beelbeebub · May 20, 2016

Chris Simon said:
I don't think so. State's economy can reach a limit, the borders can reach a limit. A state is more or less physical thing.

But EU? Physically, EU is just bunch of buildings with lots and lots and LOTS of clerks and bureaucrats inside. The buildings and bureaucrats are specifically made to allow huge rivers of money to flow through and, sometimes, create ponds and lakes inside...

Interestingly, the EU has about 30,000 bureaucrats, costing some E6bn, whilst the UK has some 400,000 costing £9bn. The EU does have to handle considerably less money though. A total budget of some £125bn a year compared to the UK's £700bn+.

beelbeebub · May 20, 2016

Two arguments I keep seeing from Leave:

They object to the fact that the UK pays in more than it gets back and that some of those funds are sent to the poorer countries who get more back than they put in.

They also proclaim that the UK is the 5th largest economy and that we are plenty big enough to survive on our own.

So from those two statements, they must also object to the principle that the richest should help the poorest. Given the make up of UKIP and the conservatives this seems quite likely.

After all the UK is the 5th richest nation out of nearly 200, surely giving less than 0.5% of our wealth to poorer neighbours to help them develop is no bad thing. As a bonus for the rabid right wingers we also get an educated labour force to boost our own and easy access to their markets when they develop stronger economies with more demand for our goods and services.

Marra Morgan · May 20, 2016

beelbeebub said:
Two arguments I keep seeing from Leave:

They object to the fact that the UK pays in more than it gets back and that some of those funds are sent to the poorer countries who get more back than they put in.

And they overlook that beneficiary recipients of the EU budget are closer to home than they think - here in Wales we benefit by around £70 per head and I haven't heard any proposals from "Leave" to offset what we would lose if their campaign is successful.

beelbeebub · May 20, 2016

Marra said:
And they overlook that beneficiary recipients of the EU budget are closer to home than they think - here in Wales we benefit by around £70 per head and I haven't heard any proposals from "Leave" to offset what we would lose if their campaign is successful.

The whole argument about "how much we pay" is based on the public's incomprehension of large, government sized, budgets. To the "man in the street" £350million a week sounds like a lot of money.

It needs to be put in the context of the £14,000 million a week the government spends.

If you spend £100 a week (of which £7.50 is your credit card interest) and earn £85 a week, would cutting £2.50 will make a huge difference?

Roybe · May 20, 2016

As an American, this discussion is quite interesting.

We had a 'Brexit' moment in our country...in the late 1800's. It sparked a Civil War that cost more American lives, than all the wars fought since..combined.

Voting yourselves in, or out, means that no one has any skin in the game of whether the EU will stand or fall. At some point, a lot of people will get upset against the EU, and start a movement to leave the EU and they will win.

People haven't come to understand one thing about 'merging' countries into larger entities. People of different state entities will only unite if there is a common enemy, or they have killed enough of one side, or the other, to completely break the will of those that would rise up and fight against the other side.

I was truly hoping that the EU was going to find a new way to unite people, working together for the common good of all...and eventually ignore the old boundaries and historical 'issues'...but it really does seem that to unite a people requires some amount of violence and a unifying struggle against an outside force or a soul crushing, painful, military action.

Marra Morgan · May 20, 2016

Roybe said:
As an American, this discussion is quite interesting.

We had a 'Brexit' moment in our country...in the late 1800's. It sparked a Civil War that cost more American lives, than all the wars fought since..combined.

Voting yourselves in, or out, means that no one has any skin in the game of whether the EU will stand or fall. At some point, a lot of people will get upset against the EU, and start a movement to leave the EU and they will win.

People haven't come to understand one thing about 'merging' countries into larger entities. People of different state entities will only unite if there is a common enemy, or they have killed enough of one side, or the other, to completely break the will of those that would rise up and fight against the other side.

I was truly hoping that the EU was going to find a new way to unite people, working together for the common good of all...and eventually ignore the old boundaries and historical 'issues'...but it really does seem that to unite a people requires some amount of violence and a unifying struggle against an outside force or a soul crushing, painful, military action.

Our continent has had quite enough of "soul crushing, painful, military action", thank you. There will always be differences between the member states, but thankfully we've reached the point where we can resolve them through diplomacy and ballot boxes.

Becks · May 20, 2016

Roybe said:
As an American, this discussion is quite interesting.

We had a 'Brexit' moment in our country...in the late 1800's. It sparked a Civil War that cost more American lives, than all the wars fought since..combined.

Voting yourselves in, or out, means that no one has any skin in the game of whether the EU will stand or fall. At some point, a lot of people will get upset against the EU, and start a movement to leave the EU and they will win.

People haven't come to understand one thing about 'merging' countries into larger entities. People of different state entities will only unite if there is a common enemy, or they have killed enough of one side, or the other, to completely break the will of those that would rise up and fight against the other side.

I was truly hoping that the EU was going to find a new way to unite people, working together for the common good of all...and eventually ignore the old boundaries and historical 'issues'...but it really does seem that to unite a people requires some amount of violence and a unifying struggle against an outside force or a soul crushing, painful, military action.

Are 2000 years of wars in Europe enough "soul crushing, painful, military action"? I know that it's not a competition, but compared to the wars we had over here, the wars in America don't really stand out.
Central and western Europe live in the longest, wealthiest peace period since the roman empire, and the EU has played an important role to accomplish that.

For the Brexit thing:
It's a two-bladed sword.

Nobody can really predict how the economy will react if it actually happens, but one thing is sure: You're not ONLY winning when you exit. The consequences of the Brexit will hit certain regions/economic sectors in Great Britain as hard as they would hit them in Germany.

On the other hand you would regain independences from the vast bureaucracy the EU is (and from some of the idiotic regulations they made).

In the end no one can say which option will be more profitable. All they do is speculate.

The decision in Great Britain the people have to make is probably irreversible. Cameron already said that a second referendum is not going to happen and I doubt that the EU would accept GB as a member state a few years after they chose to leave. I doubt, too, that they're going to cooperate with a Free Trade treaty or economic support in general after GB left. Politicians are sometimes like childs, and the populists are the worst regarding that.

Roybe · May 21, 2016

Becks said:
Are 2000 years of wars in Europe enough "soul crushing, painful, military action"? I know that it's not a competition, but compared to the wars we had over here, the wars in America don't really stand out.
Central and western Europe live in the longest, wealthiest peace period since the roman empire, and the EU has played an important role to accomplish that.

For the Brexit thing:
It's a two-bladed sword.

Nobody can really predict how the economy will react if it actually happens, but one thing is sure: You're not ONLY winning when you exit. The consequences of the Brexit will hit certain regions/economic sectors in Great Britain as hard as they would hit them in Germany.

On the other hand you would regain independences from the vast bureaucracy the EU is (and from some of the idiotic regulations they made).

In the end no one can say which option will be more profitable. All they do is speculate.

The decision in Great Britain the people have to make is probably irreversible. Cameron already said that a second referendum is not going to happen and I doubt that the EU would accept GB as a member state a few years after they chose to leave. I doubt, too, that they're going to cooperate with a Free Trade treaty or economic support in general after GB left. Politicians are sometimes like childs, and the populists are the worst regarding that.

Sorry...I am not a proponent to the idea of war or conquest...it's just that it takes more than just a 'make it so' attitude to bind seperate countries together in a way that they would be cohesive whole. I hope to be proven wrong...but the idea of nationalistic identity must be lost and a new 'nationalism' based on the union of european nations must be forged. Not an easy thing to do via peaceful political means. (Every one of our 50 states has lots to boast of...but they are more proud of their belonging to the national identity than their regional one, a direct result of the aforementioned historical kerfuffle).