General / Off-Topic Lies told to Norway before they rejected EU membership [BREXIT] [VOTE EXIT]

Out of interest. Do you have figures for that? I did a bit of a search and total losses for WWII alone was a low estimate of 70 million( 70,000,000). That's both military and civilian.

I won't argue the point but I like to research History as a hobby. So much stuff gets distorted and confused, it drives me mad on times.

Peace brother.;)

He speaks certainly of American military victims (who is 416 000 during the Second World War)
 
Out of interest. Do you have figures for that? I did a bit of a search and total losses for WWII alone was a low estimate of 70 million( 70,000,000). That's both military and civilian.

I won't argue the point but I like to research History as a hobby. So much stuff gets distorted and confused, it drives me mad on times.

Peace brother.;)


Look up all the American losses due to all the wars since the Civil War...they total less than those that were lost in the Civil War itself. Remember that all losses in the this war were 100% American...and that there was a concerted effort by the Union to 'maximize' the pain of the South AND a lack of adaptation by both sides tactics, in relation to the capabilities of the weapons.

Wars ranked by total number of American military deaths[edit]


RankWarYearsDeathsDeaths per DayUS Population in First Year of WarDeaths per Population
1American Civil War1861–65750,000[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war#cite_note-Gugliotta-27"][27][/URL]42031,443,0002.385% (1860)
2World War II1941–45405,399297133,402,0000.307% (1940)
3World War I1917–18116,516279103,268,0000.110% (1920)
4Vietnam War1961–7558,20911179,323,175 (1960)0.030% (1970)
5Korean War1950–5354,24645151,325,0000.020% (1950)
9Iraq War/Afghanistan Wars2001–present6,7171.57294,043,0000.002% (2010)
10Philippine–American War1899–19024,1963.872,129,0010.006% (1900)


6, 7, 8 removed due to pre-Civil war
 
Last edited:
"American lives" :) I think that should resolve the confusion about the losses :)
That's a fair comment. To which I will only say that the Soviet Union alone, lost an estimated 26-27 million in the last war.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Look up all the American losses due to all the wars since the Civil War...they total less than those that were lost in the Civil War itself. Remember that all losses in the this war were 100% American...and that there was a concerted effort by the Union to 'maximize' the pain of the South AND a lack of adaptation by both sides tactics, in relation to the capabilities of the weapons.

Wars ranked by total number of American military deaths[edit]


RankWarYearsDeathsDeaths per DayUS Population in First Year of WarDeaths per Population
1American Civil War1861–65750,000[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war#cite_note-Gugliotta-27"][27][/URL]42031,443,0002.385% (1860)
2World War II1941–45405,399297133,402,0000.307% (1940)
3World War I1917–18116,516279103,268,0000.110% (1920)
4Vietnam War1961–7558,20911179,323,175 (1960)0.030% (1970)
5Korean War1950–5354,24645151,325,0000.020% (1950)
9Iraq War/Afghanistan Wars2001–present6,7171.57294,043,0000.002% (2010)
10Philippine–American War1899–19024,1963.872,129,0010.006% (1900)


6, 7, 8 removed due to pre-Civil war
Thank you for that. :)
 
That's a fair comment. To which I will only say that the Soviet Union alone, lost an estimated 26-27 million in the last war.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -


Thank you for that. :)


Welcome. I would also point to this article, to understand the fundamental changes this war brought around to the US....it was huge...and caused the real uniting of the country into what it would become.

http://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-by-era/essays/civil-war-and-reconstruction-1861-1877

Basically, until the Civil War, the US was made up of strong states squabbling with a weak Federal Government. Afterwards, the Federal Government changed into a strong political force, with states taking a weaker role.

I see the EU as a similar situation....a weak government system dealing with strong states, states, who BTW, can rally their populations (or have the powerful within the state rally them) to remove them from the EU through a 'simple' vote.

I am not pointing out some US idea of exceptionalism...just what I see as a parallel between the two situations.
 
Last edited:
Also, EU = Hitler? Give it a rest.

Ok here is my logic around why Brexit would reduce EU exports.

The EU is a single market

Single markets boost trade in two ways, no tariffs or non-tariff barriers and no requirement for customs paperwork.

If we assume the UK strikes a deal with the EU for zero tariff barriers (the best possible outcome) that still leaves the matter of customs.

Why do we need customs with the EU? Because the UK would have different import tariffs from the EU. Say Chinese steel could be imported to the UK tariff free. The EU would need to check every steel consignment to the EU would have to have it's origin declared (UK manufactured steel, no tariff, Chinese imported steel - pay a tariff) and then checked. the whole bureaucracy of filling in forms, certifying origin, calculating duty, inspecting and impounding cargos etc would have to be applied. The EU would have no choice but to enforce this. The customs barrier around any single market must be uniform and total.

The customs checks and administration would be a small drag on trade. Not huge (although it could be) but a percentage point or two.

Every 1% drop in EU trade represents a loss of around £2.5bn a year from GDP or about £900 million a year in government revenues.

Ok, so that bit is irrefutable. We will absolutely lose some EU trade. No doubt about that.

What is more contentions is will we increase our non EU trade by enough to compensate?

The people behind "brexit the movie" include Professor Minford, darling of Brexit because he predicts the UK economy will do better outside the EU. A primary difference in his modelling is that he has (as his personal beliefs guide him) dropped all import tariffs. So UK consumers can buy goods from anywhere in the world without paying any extra on top. This will immediately drop food prices, prices of goods from non EU places like China and the US. Yay sounds good, cheaper iPad and toys and the like.

Of course, EU goods would cost the same as we pay no duty now.

The first implication is all our industries would be stuffed. How can a UK manufacturer compete with a Chinese one? Economists say "become more efficient", but our manufacturers are already more efficient than many Chinese or even US manufacturers. In terms of man hours per car UK car plants are amongst the most efficient in the world. The same with many other industries. Higher skill bases plus lots of automation make UK manufacturers very efficient. What makes EU factories struggle is having to provide sick, holiday, maternity pay. Providing protective equipment like hard hats, boots, extractors. Fire alarms in factories, factories that don't fall down, pensions, minimum wages. Having to treat chemical waste rather than just dump it in a nearby river.

There is no way a developed nation factory can compete with a developing nation one.

so our industry would be stuffed, but by dropping our tariffs we have lost a lever in negotiating for an tariffs we face to be dropped. S why would China, say, give us any better terms than they have to, given there is nothing we could do to stop them putting up barriers?
 
Wales is a net beneficiary - we get more than we put in. The Leave campaign has put nothing on the table to address our loss in income should the UK as a whole withdraw. I don't find making my country poorer a compelling argument.
Yes, quite right, Wales is also a net beneficiary for being in the United Kingdom, more so than from the EU. Wales is getting more out of the EU and the UK than it puts in.
That is a compelling argument.
 

Minonian

Banned
I don't think so. State's economy can reach a limit, the borders can reach a limit. A state is more or less physical thing.

But EU? Physically, EU is just bunch of buildings with lots and lots and LOTS of clerks and bureaucrats inside. The buildings and bureaucrats are specifically made to allow huge rivers of money to flow through and, sometimes, create ponds and lakes inside... :p

And this is where are you wrong! Management issues. The current style and systematic maybe effective in a smaller company if they are only want to rasp fart, and that's it! But sure as hell it's useless in the case of the EU. What do you think? Why we have in not small part the current problems? Because the only thing is bigger than the EU his bureaucratic class.

You have a whole lot of these special rights in the EU. Freedom of travel in the Schengen area for example. Or the "Opt out" for certain laws regarding interior and justice.

Of course the EU profits from the UK as a member, but the UK profits likewise.
Good point! It's a two sided relationship. good for both party if you leave it, than you miss it. And since no true reason to leave only the usual third party political propaganda spiced up with some conspiration theory nonsense? It's a bad idea to leave it.
For example (guess who is responsible, who standing in the background in case of stupidities like this)
[video=youtube;eYqzcqDtL3k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYqzcqDtL3k[/video]

Oh one more thing IMO Hitler would LOVE the EU, it's more or less what he wanted, the EU just had the brains to do it quietly without obvious conflict.

LOL! Tho draw equality between the democratic EU and the third Reich? you just made my day! :D

Picard-Facepalm.jpg
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom