General / Off-Topic Live Long and... Wither?

There's an increasingly popular scientist by the name of Walter Longo. He's doing work on longevity, across many species including ours. A huge portion of the research involves complex biochemistry and new physiology, which we shall completely skip, and get to the curious facts.

Some mice have a mutation that makes them tiny. These itty bitty mice live waaaaay longer than normal sized ones. They seldom get cancers, they seldom get diabetes, and they seem immune to strokes and heart attacks.

There are humans with the same mutation. A bunch of them were found in Ecuador by a medical doctor doing research to please his billionaire contractor dad, which is a whole other interesting story we will skip. So, these people are also tiny. They are frequent centenarians, seemingly immune to cancer and metabolic diseases, even though their diet is bad. Their underlying chemistry compensates.

Based on the new biochemistry and these examples, Longo published a book called the Longevity Diet. It came out this year, and contains the best current findings we have on how to eat with the goal of blocking early death and diseases.

This upends a lot of previously held concepts. For instance, if you look at a powerful wrestler who can lift huge loads, endure physical strain, and is a high performing flexible athlete, you'd think he'd be a healthy fellow, who would probably live longer than the average weedy accountant.

But it seems that isn't so.

Virtually anything we do that switches on our growth chemistry makes us age. And by "growth" I mean height, or fat, or muscle. Bigger is badder for us.

So the recommendation is to avoid protein intake past a minimum. No meat, eggs or dairy. And resistance exercise/muscle hypertrophy isn't encouraged -it's basically tolerated at a stretch. Veganism, cardio and periodic fasting however seem to be very useful for the longevity goal.

I am, to say the least, not thrilled with the findings.
 
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Pff, if I can't have a nice steak for dinner and a glass of milk before sleep why bother living? Especially living for a while :D
If you spend so much time worrying about what you eat, and what you do to extend your life by a measly few years - is it even worth the wasted time?
 
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Interesting.......?

When you said their diet was ‘bad’ I was hoping you was about to tell us it consisted

Kebabs
Burgers
And
Bacon butties (Brown sauce not red, red is for kids and southern fairies)

Not that vegan crap which is bad in a totally different level
 
Pff, if I can't have a nice steak for dinner and a glass of milk before sleep why bother living? Especially living for a while :D
If you spend so much time worrying about what you eat, and what you do to extend your life by a measly few years - is it even worth the wasted time?

It's not just the lifespan, it's the health span.
Suppose you live to 80. But along the way, you go blind, get a stroke that stops you from being able to talk, and have to get dialysis 3 times a week. That would be a pretty arduous deal.

I have a first degree relative who's close to 50. He got 2 major illnesses last week on that scale. This forces me to recalibrate what I am doing because of the risks.
 
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So the recommendation is to avoid protein intake past a minimum. No meat, eggs or dairy. And resistance exercise/muscle hypertrophy isn't encouraged -it's basically tolerated at a stretch. Veganism, cardio and periodic fasting however seem to be very useful for the longevity goal.
They might live longer, but it's pretty boring. Frankly, I'd rather live a shorter life and enjoy it.
 
Living longer increases your chances of getting dementia. While a healthy lifestyle may be somewhat protective, the biggest and clearest risk factor for developing dementia is being over 65.
 
[video=youtube;wRxHYHPzs7s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRxHYHPzs7s[/video]

At least there's a choice.
 
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There's an increasingly popular scientist by the name of Walter Longo. He's doing work on longevity, across many species including ours. A huge portion of the research involves complex biochemistry and new physiology, which we shall completely skip, and get to the curious facts.

Some mice have a mutation that makes them tiny. These itty bitty mice live waaaaay longer than normal sized ones. They seldom get cancers, they seldom get diabetes, and they seem immune to strokes and heart attacks.

There are humans with the same mutation. A bunch of them were found in Ecuador by a medical doctor doing research to please his billionaire contractor dad, which is a whole other interesting story we will skip. So, these people are also tiny. They are frequent centenarians, seemingly immune to cancer and metabolic diseases, even though their diet is bad. Their underlying chemistry compensates.

Based on the new biochemistry and these examples, Longo published a book called the Longevity Diet. It came out this year, and contains the best current findings we have on how to eat with the goal of blocking early death and diseases.

This upends a lot of previously held concepts. For instance, if you look at a powerful wrestler who can lift huge loads, endure physical strain, and is a high performing flexible athlete, you'd think he'd be a healthy fellow, who would probably live longer than the average weedy accountant.

But it seems that isn't so.

Virtually anything we do that switches on our growth chemistry makes us age. And by "growth" I mean height, or fat, or muscle. Bigger is badder for us.

So the recommendation is to avoid protein intake past a minimum. No meat, eggs or dairy. And resistance exercise/muscle hypertrophy isn't encouraged -it's basically tolerated at a stretch. Veganism, cardio and periodic fasting however seem to be very useful for the longevity goal.

I am, to say the least, not thrilled with the findings.



Have you looked at how Japan has changed since WWII.

It aligns with what you are saying, somewhat.
It's a unique cohort in that they have an unusually homogeneous and fairly well documented diet during childhood.
In short, as energy and protein intake increased they got taller and more massive, but certain health problems became more prevalent.

That said, while most studies agree that there is no benefit to being larger and indeed, it can be pretty costly; larger, healthy people are a statistical anomaly and almost impossible to study well.
They are just vastly outweighed by all the unhealthy, obese people, population wise.

It should be noted the same can be said of endurance athletes, and may other "healthy lifestyles".
Which of course highlights how raw lifespan, mortality etc are pretty shallow metrics.

Life is much more than a bunch of numbers.
How much enjoyment did you get out of it?
How rich is each moment?

QoL is significantly improved by being fit and strong, especially as we age.
 
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Living longer increases your chances of getting dementia. While a healthy lifestyle may be somewhat protective, the biggest and clearest risk factor for developing dementia is being over 65.

True enough.
But not with the mutation. Laron Syndrome.

https://news.usc.edu/115469/people-with-growth-stunting-gene-have-a-sharper-memory/

When we say "aging" it implies gaining years of course, but it can also be interpreted as "deteriorating" over time. Overall, the idea is to grow older with minimal aging, to slow down the deterioration, so that getting the years just happens secondarily.

Here's a link to his website, if anybody wants to poke around a biit more:

https://valterlongo.com
 
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verminstar

Banned
Good m8 of mine was a professional body builder fer as long as I’ve known him...never drank never smoked always eating very weird and controlled diet...

Same age as me he now can’t even climb the stairs on his house and has numerous issues with his heart...

Sorta says it all...I’m a lifetime smoker with ms and I can function and live better than an old health and fitness fanatic...sad but there it is...I’d rather live fast and die younger than live like a monk in boredom and then waste away into old age all that effort and boredom and fer what? Fer the chance to waste away in some nursing home and when ye die, ye can’t even remember yer own name?

I choose a different fate...one that’s more fun...here fer a fun time not a long time ^
 
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True enough.
But not with the mutation. Laron Syndrome.

https://news.usc.edu/115469/people-with-growth-stunting-gene-have-a-sharper-memory/

When we say "aging" it implies gaining years of course, but it can also be interpreted as "deteriorating" over time. Overall, the idea is to grow older with minimal aging, to slow down the deterioration, so that getting the years just happens secondarily.

Here's a link to his website, if anybody wants to poke around a biit more:

https://valterlongo.com

Sounds like utopia to me. I have no doubt that scientists are looking for ways to enhance and stretch lifes but to be honest I find studies investigating the WHY more important because it helps to accept facts rather then dwell in wishful thinking.

There is of course a reason for dying...a necessity in fact and I dont speak from a religious angle but rather a biological one. Tho the world seems to be so vast and endless its in truth a very limited habitat surrounded by a deadly environment. Its resources are finite and it relies on a complex chain of loops and mechanics that regenerate and refresh whatever we see as "granted" in this world. Humanities efforts to beat death has already resulted in a dramatic increase of humans on the planet within a rather short time and the planet struggles to adapt. Already we can observe global effects/problems caused by humans and while it seems terrible to us and there is this talk about "killing earth" fact is that what we see is a long-established "loop" in nature that suddenly counts for us too.

In an eco-system with predators and prey-animals only the species survives that is successful at what it does, be it hunting or avoiding harm. If for any reason any one species disturbs the balance nature will automatically adjust accordingly until balance is re-established. Usually the observed area of effect is rather small but already demonstrates the consequences. Predators too successful will find less and less food to nourish their families and eventually population will dwindle until the remaining prey population can sustain the predators again. If prey animals become faster or find new sources of food their population will increase while allowing predator population to increase also due to an increased available pool of food. Prey animal food tho is limited so while you can observe a period of overall growth this system will inevitably push into limits at which point everything simply falls apart. Food becomes scarce, prey animals starve, less available prey results in starvation among the predators. The increased competition for survival very likely enhances adaptions (mutations) to keep individual genetic strains alive. In the end the survivors will begin a new cycle, most probably changed and X generations down the line split into completely different life forms depending on the environment.

Its evolution in a nutshell and not really new. Know what always has been a constant throughout all the millions of years in earths history?

The planet.

Earth doesnt care and I personally dont believe that humanity can "destroy" it in any form. Earth has suffered tectonic hic-ups, meteor impacts and mega volcano activities that were more powerful then all our nuclear arsenal combined and has started it all over again. It will change...certainly but it will not die. The thing humans in general seem not to understand when talking about "killing the planet" is that we kill ourselves. And we also kill a lot of other species in the process, most likely species that are integrated in the food-chain we rely on. Our current life periods usually prevents us from understanding it all or better....care about it because most people probably think "why should I restrict myself so that future generations might have it better? I want to live the good life NOW and to hell with whoever comes after me".

Individuality, a praised concept is in this instance our biggest curse. It prevents us from working together, from caring about the future or each other and of course...it all is simply evolution again. Nothing new here.

History shows that small communities living in an enclosed area where resources are even more sparse manage to establish a balance with their environment. And of course that only counts for the SUCCESSFUL ones because the tribes who dont manage usually die out in a short time.

RESOURCE MANAGEMENT is the key word here. Its critical and all too neglected in todays societies. A few countries start to show awareness and take responsibility but most other countries still behave like resources are endless.

I usually admire hive systems due to their efficiency and cannot help but dream about what humanity could accomplish if all the billions of humans would work towards a common goal instead of splintering and thinking short-term for their own selfish demands. Ex-solar colonization probably already a done deal. The scientific progress would simply DWARF our own which we are so proud of. But of course....hive systems establish a strict system that everybody has to follow, not by free will but because the hive will enforce it. Ants or bees for example feature specific roles and responsibilities and the individual animals/insects are usually optimized for their designated task. This is an automatic process not controlled by any "hive mind" because even the queens, arguably the leaders of any given hive system are simply slaves to the hive themselves.

In terms of performance we cannot even BEGIN to compete with such systems but then, in typical human manner we want what we admire without accepting its restrictions or limitations. Where is the "me-time" in a hive? When will MY OWN goals be satisfied? Those are answers that we dont like because individuality is a praised and cherished concept among humans even tho the benefits for the species are questionable at best.

Various hollywood movies showed fictional societies where everybody is enslaved, stripped of power and personal rights. Reduced to a cog within the machine. Usually these movies show "unfair" distribution of power where a small group or an individual enslaves everybody else through violence and eventually breaking free of these chains. Usually these movies try to transport the message "there is enough for everybody, we all could benefit if we shared and cared about each other" which is of course utopia. Constant happiness implies constant growth (forming a family of your own, living the good life which usually is based on somebodies else efforts) and while this might work out short-term available resources STILL are finite and when these limits are reached suffering and competition will start.

While it would be possible to achieve scientific break-throughs that would stretch the "happy duration" humans individuality usually results in selfish behavior and splintering preventing the species as a whole from succeeding. And make no mistake...even if we would manage to come together and sacrifice personal happiness "for the greater good" we would eventually push into boundaries....be it available space, regenerating capabilities of our habitat or resources again.

Most theories about immortality are wishful thinking or simply "chasing the dream" because humans usually want the whole cake and eat it too....striving after the positives and disregarding or ignoring the negatives.

Our world has forms of immortality already. We know about them or better, a few people do because most folks dont think about such stuff being busy with the social hamster wheel designed to keep em busy and occupied. Almost all immortal or near-immortal life forms known are plants but there are a select few animals known also. Key to longevity is usually hibernation or cloning both systems having consequences that almost nobody acknowledges when dreaming about "living forever". Mostly because it disturbs the idea of individuality. Animals usually manage on a bare minimum of resources or better "scraping the bottom" which also doesnt suit the idea of "living a good life" most people have when thinking about living forever.

The dream works if you only have one or a select few immortals while everbody else remains the same but as soon as you try to apply immortality to a whole species it either dies out or changes drastically to accomodate the new conditions.

In the end it all comes down to acceptance. Its that simple. Most humans learn about this concept later in life, usually at a point which past generations didnt even reach so never had to bother with (in the distant past reaching an age of 40 was a rare accomplishment) in the first place. Older folks lack physical prowess but usually offer knowledge, experience and wisdom instead. Its a trade-off we all face and while some never grow up enough to accept their limits and nobody (probably) likes the idea of dying accepting simple truths like this enable us to live a satisfying life.

Education today doesnt mirror these ways of living that would benefit us all long-term. I m not even sure if it would be possible because younger folks are simply "unable" to comprehend these things. They can read about them and then "know" them for sure but "understanding" is a different thing. Usually schools teach us about all the things we dont have, probably wont ever achieve and instills a hunger for more that is based on other peoples work. Trying to instill understanding is futile (think "history" or "social ettiquette") at this age and while I wouldnt have the power to enforce a "better" system in the first place I admit that I have no idea how such a system would look like. Better is usually in the eye of the beholder anyway.

So Immortality equals greed to me. There you have it.

Its a dream concept which is equal to magic or wishful thinking. In nature immortality is a failed model due to environmental change or competition. The most successful life forms on this planet are bacteria and viruses. Their success is based on a few simple truths. Extremely short life spans. No individuality but instinct or chemically driven. No self-awareness. On the plus side adaptive capabilities are through the roof. Strains we thought we made go extinct suddenly return, other strains prove to be so aggressive and active that all we do usually is catching up or limit the spread at best. The generational mutations sometimes are so extreme that a bacteria can evolve into a whole new kind within a few generations. While on the other hand human evolution includes something like 50.000 years until something becomes "ingrained" and adds to our genetic knowledge.

People usually are busy painting a super duper picture of immortality while there are already examples or explanations for it that they simply dont like so they ignore or disregard them instead wasting time on a dream rather then accept certainties and move on.

I m sorry for bombing this thread but the topic is very interesting and I just wanted to share my own view on it in detail :)
 
Good m8 of mine was a professional body builder fer as long as I’ve known him...never drank never smoked always eating very weird and controlled diet...

Same age as me he now can’t even climb the stairs on his house and has numerous issues with his heart...

^

The ones who compete are stuck having to use pharmacological substances or they just get steamrolled. And some of these substances cause various kinds of heart disease.

Here's a horrible story about a man who had a bad outcome at a very young age, probably from the steroid shots.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/oli-cooney-death-bodybuilding-obsessive-3340653
Maybe the reason your friend got sick is related to this? Or he might have just been prone to such illness?

Unfortunately, evidence is now also suggesting that the "healthy" gym going folks who just lift 2 times a
week and drink lots of protein shakes regularly may also be shifting their chemistry in a bad direction.

Over the last 18 years, I went from 135 pounds to 185 pounds, as a result of heavy lifting. Mostly for mental health reasons.
I'm not competitive, or genetically gifted, but now I'm concerned about the long term effects this is going to have on things like cancers, autoimmune disease, etc. It sometimes looks like no matter what we do, we are screwed.
 

verminstar

Banned
The ones who compete are stuck having to use pharmacological substances or they just get steamrolled. And some of these substances cause various kinds of heart disease.

Here's a horrible story about a man who had a bad outcome at a very young age, probably from the steroid shots.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/oli-cooney-death-bodybuilding-obsessive-3340653
Maybe the reason your friend got sick is related to this? Or he might have just been prone to such illness?

Unfortunately, evidence is now also suggesting that the "healthy" gym going folks who just lift 2 times a
week and drink lots of protein shakes regularly may also be shifting their chemistry in a bad direction.

Over the last 18 years, I went from 135 pounds to 185 pounds, as a result of heavy lifting. Mostly for mental health reasons.
I'm not competitive, or genetically gifted, but now I'm concerned about the long term effects this is going to have on things like cancers, autoimmune disease, etc. It sometimes looks like no matter what we do, we are screwed.

Sounds to me like ye worry too much...stress will put ye in an early grave just like any other cause, so ironically worrying about yer own departure time will likely hasten it.

Big lad who did the body building? Ye he was fairly heavily into the pills fer years, worst kept secret ever it was his missus who spilled the beans when she walked out on him cos he loved himself more than anything else. And also cos whatever he took meant he wasnt quite able to fulfil his marital vows...Im sure ye can use yer imagination here.

These days, hes so fat he can no longer see his own feet when he looks down and walks with a wobble...sometimes needs help just getting in an out of the car hes that big. A fairly major heart attack at the old age of 31 put an end to the gym and the downward spiral began in earnest...31 years old...hmm.

Me Im a huge collection of bad habits...I eat the worst food, been a smoker since I was 12 years old and Ive used my body like a chemists playground in the 90s. Now have MS so that slows me down considerably and yet I still walk the dogs fer 2 hours every single day up mountains that supposed fit, healthy and much younger folks have difficulty with. Before MS, I did mountain biking fer 25 years in those hills so I do know about fitness as well as bad habits...used to stop and have a smoke at the top of a 45 minute hill climb.

I get a full health MOT done every year...apart from the MS, Im in full and fine working order fer a 47 year old man. I still have my 6 pack when I hold my breath...so what gives? Im not a light smoker either, 30 a day habit and thats not including whatever else I smoke...fer medicinal purposes. My favourite meal is an ulster fryup with lashings of brown sauce and a bottomless pot of tea.

And yet here I am...hasnt slowed me down any and my doctor still gives me the thumbs up every year. Which is why I scratch my head about all this worrying...cant be good fer ye man. Nobody knows when they gonna depart so why worry about it? Sounds like too much stressing out over something ye cant predict or prevent anyway...delay maybe but to what end? So ye can have a few more years in a nursing home to lament on the family who never visits?

Live free ^
 
Makes kind of sense that if you reduce the chemical processing and power generation that unavoidable side effects will be reduced as well. Modern technologies and anything that helps us avoid doing the same amount of work as before seems to underline this, with more health conscience in general.
On the other hand the number of allergy sufferers seems to rise, and the reactions involved do surely raise the amount of chemical processing again.
Does the future lie in bubbles with independent air filters?
 

verminstar

Banned
Makes kind of sense that if you reduce the chemical processing and power generation that unavoidable side effects will be reduced as well. Modern technologies and anything that helps us avoid doing the same amount of work as before seems to underline this, with more health conscience in general.
On the other hand the number of allergy sufferers seems to rise, and the reactions involved do surely raise the amount of chemical processing again.
Does the future lie in bubbles with independent air filters?

I may understand this wrong but a similar example would be intentionally poisoning yerself with small doses...eventually yer body builds up its own immune system so that as time goes on, ye become immune to greater amounts of poison.

Same as wrapping kids up in cotton wool...stop them getting sick and they wont strengthen their own immune system and develop allergies because their bodies cant handle the real world...not used to it.

They say that my generation was the last generation to play outdoors as kids...nowadays its deemed unsafe...how the human race survived up until now is a mystery according to medical science. Seems the more we have ventured indoors and the more we wrap ourselves up in our own private little bubbles, the more allergies and sicknesses there seem to be.

Dunno bout ye lot...but there appears to be a connection here does there not? Its like when religion spread its cancer to a desert island to spread the good news and wiped out 90% of the local population with a common cold...they never had a common cold before so the effects were devastating. All ties into it not being good living in a bubble ^
 
I may understand this wrong but a similar example would be intentionally poisoning yerself with small doses...eventually yer body builds up its own immune system so that as time goes on, ye become immune to greater amounts of poison.

Same as wrapping kids up in cotton wool...stop them getting sick and they wont strengthen their own immune system and develop allergies because their bodies cant handle the real world...not used to it.

They say that my generation was the last generation to play outdoors as kids...nowadays its deemed unsafe...how the human race survived up until now is a mystery according to medical science. Seems the more we have ventured indoors and the more we wrap ourselves up in our own private little bubbles, the more allergies and sicknesses there seem to be.

Dunno bout ye lot...but there appears to be a connection here does there not? Its like when religion spread its cancer to a desert island to spread the good news and wiped out 90% of the local population with a common cold...they never had a common cold before so the effects were devastating. All ties into it not being good living in a bubble ^

Maybe I could have worded it better, I tried to point out that reducing the stress on your cells includes stuff like allergies and as you point out other bacterial and viral illnesses, so avoiding these sources of stress might force us to life more isolated than we do today, if the goal is a longer life.

There is certainly a connection between longer time outdoors and being confronted with all kind of illnesses with the general healthiness. I think what OP implies is that this general healthiness comes with a reduction of potential life time - what doesn't kill me makes me stronger, at least for the time that is biological relevant (father, care for and teach my children).
 

verminstar

Banned
Maybe I could have worded it better, I tried to point out that reducing the stress on your cells includes stuff like allergies and as you point out other bacterial and viral illnesses, so avoiding these sources of stress might force us to life more isolated than we do today, if the goal is a longer life.

There is certainly a connection between longer time outdoors and being confronted with all kind of illnesses with the general healthiness. I think what OP implies is that this general healthiness comes with a reduction of potential life time - what doesn't kill me makes me stronger, at least for the time that is biological relevant (father, care for and teach my children).

Its just common sense...too much of a good thing becomes a bad thing. Its beneficial to be generally fit and have a balanced diet but when fitness becomes an obsession, it causes problems both in the short term and the long term. Being totally unfit is also a bad thing, so its best to stay sorta roughly in the middle methinks ^
 
Plant based for nearly 22 years. No regrets, no weight issues and no cold or flu since the 90's. Last vaccine I had was the BCG in the 80's. I work in care so am around illness all the time. Veganism is easy and if done right, inexpensive and makes you feel jacked with energy.
 
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