Locating Parents of 'Orphan' Player Factions

[nbooker103]

Hi Team,

As the Title Suggests is there a way to find out the

a) owners/founding members of a faction
b) and/or whether the faction is still being supported by owners/founding members

Outside of Inara?

I know the Galactic Census will kinda cover this... but if a PF that is no longer supported by founding members how can they take part?

If its subsequently 'Orphaned', can it be adopted?

THIS GAME IS AWESOME.

 

[Jane Turner]

The short answer is no. To locating the owners. There is a sticky thread with any links we have, but if a google search doesn't get them, there isn't much you can do.

I can't see any reason why an orphaned factions shouldn't be adopted, but making it official may be a challenge

 

[Marcus Machiavelli]

The short answer is no. To locating the owners. There is a sticky thread with any links we have, but if a google search doesn't get them, there isn't much you can do.

I can't see any reason why an orphaned factions shouldn't be adopted, but making it official may be a challenge

I would adopt it as Jane says and worry about it later as who would complain if you are looking after their faction while they are not playing at the moment (or ever again)

 

[Ethaidan]

No need to officiallyvadopt... just move in, take over, and if the original supporters return, run em off your patch!

 

[Jmanis]

The whole thing comes down to the fact that nobody really "owns" a faction. Yes, only groups can request a PMF be put in the game, and yes FD may take the fact the group requests it into account, but there's no explicit, ingame tying of a faction to a group. People act like there is, but there really isn't.

For example, when I ran a CG for my faction, it changed the economy type of an outpost owned by that faction. Did I really have the "authority" to do that? FD let me did it, but presumably in the context of creating activities for players. CG's themselves do break all aspects and rules related to any perception of the BGS and factions being a "competitive" activity. It really is the hand of God saying "You're our chosen faction this week"... FD certainly haven't shown any compunction about disabling starports owned by PMFs.

My group has essentially "Orphaned" our own faction recently, given your definition above. But the whole point of getting a PMF in-game was not to have ourselves explicitly support it... support would be derived from other players pushing it's interests. It's only when we (and I) started explicitly supporting at the expense of any RP around it that it stopped being fun, and so we've walked away.

In that context, should someone be able to "assume ownership" of that faction? Honestly, absolutely not, it goes against the whole principle the PMF was put into the game for. But by all means they can support it if they choose to do so, and hell, write galnet articles or run CGs if they want. But nobody "Owns" that faction, as far as I'm concerned. Can you take over an inactive guild in WoW? Can you take over an inactive corporation in EVE? Nope.

Some people may disagree with that assessment, and they're perfectly entitled to, because the problem really comes down to FD's plan around player groups and PMFs. It's really quite a non-sensical system if you have any perception that the BGS is intentionally designed for balanced and competitive gameplay (not that I've ever thought that to be the case)

 

[Ryan Murdoc]

It's only when we (and I) started explicitly supporting at the expense of any RP around it that it stopped being fun, and so we've walked away.

Hm...interesting that. Working the BGS and the opportunities that arise when doing some planning to take over new Stations or Systems actually entices people to write their own RP / Logbooks / Stories (in this Wing). We've got a ongoing RP storyline that has spanned from last year July until now and eventually soon will come to its conclusion.

 

[Abil Midena]

We have needed, and I have asked for, an *in game* way to communicate in a system for a long time.

Make it like twitter where it's character limited and keeps the last 10 posts or something. Put it in the UI right under "system status report".

That way, you could go to system X, and ask if the System X Pink Panther Clan was still active, etc. Give it over a weekend, and see if anyone responds, then find another means of communication if they do (forum/discord/etc).

I'm guessing something like that hasn't been done because of storage (money), or some other behind the scenes reason we'll never know.

 

[Jmanis]

Hm...interesting that. Working the BGS and the opportunities that arise when doing some planning to take over new Stations or Systems actually entices people to write their own RP / Logbooks / Stories (in this Wing). We've got a ongoing RP storyline that has spanned from last year July until now and eventually soon will come to its conclusion.

There's several groups out there (I can't recall any names, but if you browse this thread you'll see some complaining about Oliviera's original "Minimum Three Controlled Systems" requirement) who have a PMF they explicitly don't expand, nor want a controlling station, as that's not the way their faction was designed. Nor was that intended to be our way, it just became that when all the other options dried up. We wanted to build an image and atmosphere of "The muscle behind the scenes" portrayed through deeds, rather than # of systems controlled.

That was in reflection of the fact that prior-to PMFs being put in the game, we'd been supporting the Sitakapa Empire League (random NPC faction) into a few systems. We got SEF in the game and kept doing that for a bit, but a few people in the group wanted a few more systems for SEF, understandably. Unfortunately, all our expansions were into SEL-held systems, so it was inevitable we'd have to take some from them, which skewered that Government->Military relation we hooked on. Throw into the mix we started supporting any Imperial faction, then along came a very large PP group of Torval supporters who only wanted us supporting Imperial Dictatorships, and the whole thing got bent out of shape pretty quick.

Spoiler

What we were aiming for is a bit more like what's described below.

Our first crack at a CG was, when the station-interferring effects were first coming to light about Thargoid Sensors (Unknown Artefacts), and at a time when a lot of the rules about CGs weren't in place. I was heavily involved in looking into the UAs at the time, proving they emitted morse contrary to the current line of thinking... so given we were the group pulling the strings with SEF, it was natural we'd poke them to support us in this way. Shipping corrosive cargo long distances is a fun, and challenging activity, and corrosive cargo racks weren't a thing. SEF would have announced they were going to "study" the UAs... but a dissenting report (closer to the truth) was going to be that they were solely interested in weapons development. The proposal to FD listed for rewards, either A) An EMP-style "rare good" under the weapons category, available from Sitakapa, or B) Some insight into the origins of the UAs, or C) Nothing.

A was the vogue thing at the time, B was unlikely to occur, and we would've been entirely happy with C. FD responded promptly, but unfortunately anything to do with "story" was off-limits according to FD (Which they'd apparently backflip on for some CGs and PMFs in the future... but I digress), and they "had a similar CG coming up"... which would be the meta-alloy collection CG for the first CRCRs which, imo, was nothing like what I'd proposed in that it lacked the challenge of shipping corrosive goods.

Later, I'd go off and (help, didn't realise others were doing this) bomb Jacques before he jumped, with 300-odd UAs delivered. The premise of that was as an "experiment" for SEFs weapons program, but that thread never went anywhere... though I still stand by bombing Jacques and helping create the subsequent community activity to repair him when discovered, that was definitely at the core of why I bombed Jacques.

The next CG which would actually be accepted was to stockpile weapons and other chemicals including Nerve Agents. The guise for this was to improve defensive fortifications in Sitakapa, which would then chain into a couple more CGs portraying increased belligerence from SEF among the local systems, culminating in a fight to wipe out one of the local pirate factions in Mac Og (in other words, have FD remove that NPC faction from the game). Unfortunately again, FD took over a year to act on this initial CG proposal, and when they finally did, the initial date proposed came and went with no CG, which frankly made me pretty angry considering all the bending-over-backwards for the Salome thread going on. It eventually got up, but the whole experience was very negative. Knowing some groups had had multiple CGs accepted during that time period didn't help matters either.

So that's what our goal was... essentially a level of notoriety through narrative events, rather than # of systems controlled... frankly, there's only so many ways I can write something along the lines of "SEF took control of system.getName() because random_words(100).

 

[Ryan Murdoc]

There's several groups out there (I can't recall any names, but if you browse this thread you'll see some complaining about Oliviera's original "Minimum Three Controlled Systems" requirement) who have a PMF they explicitly don't expand, nor want a controlling station, as that's not the way their faction was designed. Nor was that intended to be our way, it just became that when all the other options dried up. We wanted to build an image and atmosphere of "The muscle behind the scenes" portrayed through deeds, rather than # of systems controlled.

I guess the way the game is designed makes it easier for some and harder for others.

We started out very blue-eyed ourselves over here. The initial thought by those wanting to implement our PMF was to have an independent Democracy. When we were finally implemented into the game we found ourselves deep in Empire territory, so it was agreed to switch to a independent Dictatorship. Most obvious reason back then to allow the Traders in the Wing to carry Imperial Slaves about and thus not be a total gamebreaker in means of where we ended up at.

That it would also be a very good choice in means of the BGS was realised way later. Still glad it worked out as it did.

From what I get though is that your Wing was essentially build with it's Lore around the concept of being able to shape your surroundings to the degree you desired. Specially in means of RP.

Complete opposite here. Everyone is free to express themselves in whatever way they wish (as long as the 3 Golden rules aren't broken: No Griefing, No Cheating, No Piracy (of Players)). One can write their own Logbooks and RP as they desire. Naturally nothing too harebrained or offensive. At least you don't get constant backlash by those who think they own the monopoly on how RP should be done on 3rd party sites. Everything not written down or sanctioned by FD is an immediate fail? Yeah...no.

In means of the BGS our PMF and how it expanded and took over assets helped many Commanders to open themselves up to RP / Logbook stories. Meaning that whenever there was a conflict of any kind (peaceful or otherwise), people used it to expand themselves in their own writing and implementation of the process of taking over a Station or even a complete System. Or when certain BGS States appeared they were integrated as well. Plus adding their own flavour, interactions with other Commanders, multiple people writing on one story etc. etc.

The everchanging nature of the BGS is what brings things to life. Or in other words: all that number crunching is less boresome when you can fill it up with what is inside yourself. Your own story that may or may not flow alongside that of others, but nonetheless it is there.

If you try to take the opposite approach and pursue to make the BGS do your bidding to fit exactly as you want it to be, then that experiment will most likely fail. You can't make it do what it can't, for the moment at least. Going with the flow and using what it has to offer, extracting the positive sides and neglecting the negative ones is how one gets the most joy out of it.

 

[Jmanis]

If you try to take the opposite approach and pursue to make the BGS do your bidding to fit exactly as you want it to be, then that experiment will most likely fail. You can't make it do what it can't, for the moment at least. Going with the flow and using what it has to offer, extracting the positive sides and neglecting the negative ones is how one gets the most joy out of it.

On the contrary, we've done (or at least tried) nothing that other PMFs haven't been able to achieve themselves... you seem to be missing the crux of what I'm saying but to explain more would be getting quite off topic. I'm not trying to suggest certain ways of playing the BGS are wrong, but you seem to be suggesting that my group are trying to bend the BGS in a way that it wasn't meant to, and that's not the case at all. Our RP game worked, and we achieved things our way, until we stopped doing it that way, but that was a choice, not due to game design, which brings us back to the point of this topic.

Some PMFs are intentionally "dormant", and I don't think anyone should just be able to "assume control" like the OP says. There are arguments against that based on FD's current implementation, to which I suggest FD's implementation is wrong, if that's the case. But again, that starts going way off topic.

In other words, even though I announced our group was essentially "No longer supporting our faction", doesn't mean our activities don't support and represent our faction. Does fighting Thargoids help a BGS faction gain systems? No. But if I found the Thargoid homeworld, do you think I'd make the claim SEF found it? Definitely.

 

[Ryan Murdoc]

Some PMFs are intentionally "dormant", and I don't think anyone should just be able to "assume control" like the OP says. There are arguments against that based on FD's current implementation, to which I suggest FD's implementation is wrong, if that's the case. But again, that starts going way off topic.

Sorry if I came across the wrong way, wasn't meaning to (regarding your group doing the RP / BGS mix).

As to the "dormant" and "assume control" topics:

If there's absolutely no way to validate that at least one person of the original group of people who asked FD to implement the PMF in question is about and active - even if just to be asked "Any problem if we take over and push your PMF?" - then what? I can fully understand that some groups who would like to play the BGS but don't go through the painfully long process of getting one implemented would use this opportunity and adopt it as their own.

However, if some people of the original PMF are still about and say "No, we'd not like it adopted but have it linger here for the memories that were created through it" I personally say fine.

Apart of not being different from regular NPC MF, every PMF was inserted into the game upon the request by a group of people who sought certain goals by that very implementation. So in my deranged view FD simply gave their ideas, wishes and desires a form (PMF). Another analogy: FD provided the empty canvas that was the PMF, and the ones requesting it would be painters, bringing everything to life, choosing their favourite colors in the process.

By default every PMF in this game is worthy of a certain level of respect. There are naturally exceptions; certain PMF only were implemented to be used by unscrupulous members of society to lessen the fun of others by proclaiming that they'd be RPing terrorists, mass murderers etc. Where in reality all that is done is to find a way to gain cheap joy from wrecking the enjoyment of others. Low self-esteem and poor character traits often show themselves this way.

And when faced with the truth they resort to play the victim card and proclaim "We're just RPing!". I've yet to find a Wing of true Roleplayers in this game who actually RP criminals in a respectful and mutual way. For RP requires the consent of both (or more) parties to happen in a certain way. If that isn't done you might as well forget to call it Roleplay. But enough about that.

Does fighting Thargoids help a BGS faction gain systems? No. But if I found the Thargoid homeworld, do you think I'd make the claim SEF found it? Definitely.

Fighting Thargoids doesn't help a BGS MF to gain Systems, but fighting them helps to create a detour. Meaning: if you kill Thargoids enough in a System they appear in, they will not move into that System but choose another one nearby. So you can defend your BGS from the Thargoids that way or at least make them go somewhere where you don't mind having partially destroyed Stations.

And regarding the Thargoid homeworld, well...I personally would keep my lips shut tight about it. If they don't know that their Homeworld has been found, they will most likely put up lesser defenses.

Which means they could be defeated easier. But knowing humanity, being smart isn't one of its biggest traits. Lest we'd not be talking about being in space and playing a Sci-Fi game, but actually flying out there by now.

 

[Jmanis]

If there's absolutely no way to validate that at least one person of the original group of people who asked FD to implement the PMF in question is about and active - even if just to be asked "Any problem if we take over and push your PMF?" - then what? I can fully understand that some groups who would like to play the BGS but don't go through the painfully long process of getting one implemented would use this opportunity and adopt it as their own.

And this is where it gets *waaaay* off topic, which is essentially around the lines of "FD need to cut their contradictory behaviours around the BGS and decide: Is it just some flavour text background, or is it actually that chessboard strategic game."... because on a balance of everything, it's pretty broken and inconsistent (not the BGS, but the management of things which impact the BGS)

If it's the former, then my views stand; No player or player group "Owns" the PMFs in the game (also a reason why FD distinguish PMFs from Player Groups... for the record our group is actually called the "Sitakapan Loyalists", which you won't find anywhere in game), they're there purely as "seasoning" to the galaxy, and that allows for things like player-submitted CGs to spice up the universe for players, and FD can freely have Thargoids attack stations owned by PMFs with volition, as the strategic chess-style gameplay simply doesn't matter.

If it's the latter, player-submitted CGs in their current form *cannot* exist; to consider their impact on the BGS; that is:
- CGs which let PMFs build stations and gain control of unpopulated systems
- CGs which change properties of a station or system
- CGs which arbitrarily start a war which may flip control of a system

... these are all things which can have significant impact on the landscape. In that regard, that just becomes an exercise in currying favouritism from FD... in the time it took my group to get one CG accepted by FD (measured from the day we submitted it to the day it went live), several groups had *multiple*. So much for the balanced strategy game we all play... but I don't complain about that, because as I mentioned, I've never felt the purpose of the BGS was that overarching strategy game, but rather that PMFs, player galnet articles and player CGs are just ways to spice up the universe and make it appear alive, vibrant and active.

Of course, then FD does things that make it feel like a balanced strategy game... not putting a new PMF where one already exists and that sort of thing. Discontinuing my material support for our faction is a little depressing knowing that we inadvertently caused a group (literal) years of wasted time because we happened to expand into and seize a system, and only recently FD announced they couldn't put their PMF there because we were there... but FD never attempted to triage that with us. And now we might well end up in retreat from there one day.

I'm not saying either perception is right or wrong... but it still stands. If this is that strategy game, then groups totally need agency and command over the PMFs put in the game. But there's many, many things outside the BGS which impact it (like CGs) which have no place in such a system. But if it's not, then nobody really "owns" their PMF, it's just an entity to spice up the world, so there's nothing for the OP to take over. Of course, FD's actions again would suggest there is. And that's the problem.

On the one hand, players like myself with minimal/no interest in that overarching strategy game would feel it inappropriate for some random player to "take over" said faction.... meanwhile a balanced strategic game necessitates it. Were we in a world where there were no faction quantity limits to systems, and presence in a system carried less impact, and more mechanics existed around, say, player ability to launch their own CGs^ rather than buddy-up to FD to get them in-game, the two could probably co-exist. But that's not this world.

^ Because seriously. I would happily put up a minor CG with 50m total credits which would get distributed to any player involved in shipping 20,000t of gold for my faction, as a means of generating tasty trade-based influence, or as a slush fund to double any bounties handed in for my faction at that station. That's the sort of money sinks we need... but even more off topic with that!

 

[Rob At Work]

If an inserted Player Minor Faction has not been touched for 2 weeks it should be ejected, IMO.

Ghost PMFs are the scourge of the BGS.

 

[Ryan Murdoc]

I guess we really could fill entire pages with our discussion, but in the end its FD that decides (and most times not very logically at that). Let's see if at one point we get them to actually address the BGS as a whole, topic wise.

I'm not holding my breath though.

 

[Walter2]

If an inserted Player Minor Faction has not been touched for 2 weeks it should be ejected, IMO.

As Jmanis pointed, there may well be perfectly good reasons why a group does not actively promote its PMF. Not all PMFs are run by groups; I can think of several scenarios in which a single PMF controller might be unable to play for a couple of weeks.

In my region there are at least two PMFs that get no systematic support, yet their influence levels are frequently adjusted by passing traders. Given how difficult it is to get a PMF into the game, what mechanism do you suggest that would identify an unused faction, undertake due diligence and then make the time and effort available to purge the database?

Ghost PMFs are the scourge of the BGS.

I must be missing something. How are we all punished by a passive (by definition) contruct?

 

[Ian Doncaster]

If it's the latter, player-submitted CGs in their current form *cannot* exist; to consider their impact on the BGS; that is:
- CGs which let PMFs build stations and gain control of unpopulated systems
- CGs which change properties of a station or system
- CGs which arbitrarily start a war which may flip control of a system

Interestingly, they've said that for Colonia - where the PMFs really are packed together - player-submitted CGs won't be allowed to request dockable assets, just cosmetic things like installations and megaships.

They seem to be aware of the potential for interference elsewhere, as well.

 

[A Sleeping Bear]

Why can't it be both? I play the BGS for the politics and strategy stuff but that adds flavour, history, lore, a story to be told and get involved in, RP around, which I also love. FDev have said they look at the BGS systems when considering CGs and that if they decide that a group is trying to do something screwy with the BGS, they don't do the CG so in their eyes at least, it is balanced.

 

[Rob At Work]

As Jmanis pointed, there may well be perfectly good reasons why a group does not actively promote its PMF. Not all PMFs are run by groups; I can think of several scenarios in which a single PMF controller might be unable to play for a couple of weeks.

In my region there are at least two PMFs that get no systematic support, yet their influence levels are frequently adjusted by passing traders. Given how difficult it is to get a PMF into the game, what mechanism do you suggest that would identify an unused faction, undertake due diligence and then make the time and effort available to purge the database?


I must be missing something. How are we all punished by a passive (by definition) contruct?

Most "Ghost PMFs" are put in place deliberately by Powers with to give negative/opposite politics to increase the effort a power requires to hold on to a particular sphere and FDev fell for it. ie it was a strategic move by powers (which FDev said they would not allow - but then did) and now we are stuck with them, they should be purged out of the game.

Many groups did this as it was so easy in the early days, so I'm sure they will all come and defend their Ghost PMFs.

I have nothing whatsoever against PMFs that actually support their MF.

Maybe after 2 weeks (maybe even 4) an untouched PMF should lose influence more quickly

PS if FDev did purge Ghost PMFs there would be a massive amount of room released for new/current PMFs that are finding it hard to find a space in an already overcrowded BGS.

 

[Misaniovent]

Most "Ghost PMFs" are put in place deliberately by Powers with to give negative/opposite politics to increase the effort a power requires to hold on to a particular sphere and FDev fell for it. ie it was a strategic move by powers (which FDev said they would not allow - but then did) and now we are stuck with them, they should be purged out of the game.

Many groups did this as it was so easy in the early days, so I'm sure they will all come and defend their Ghost PMFs.

I have nothing whatsoever against PMFs that actually support their MF.

Maybe after 2 weeks (maybe even 4) an untouched PMF should lose influence more quickly

PS if FDev did purge Ghost PMFs there would be a massive amount of room released for new/current PMFs that are finding it hard to find a space in an already overcrowded BGS.

Can you expand on this? I have never heard this before, and I've been involved in powerplay and BGS for a long time. Not denying that it happens — but am curious.

 

[Mangal Oemie]

Same here -- this is the first time I heard that. Can you provide any examples?