Lone Echo's VR locomotion is promising for ED

[VR Golgot]

Locomotion is one of VR's big conundrums, but in zero G at least it seems strides are being made. First Adr1ft and now the hand-hold slinging of Lone Echo (& its online 'Ender's Game' tribute Echo Arena). Reviews are pretty shiny so far:

If you’ve played the beta for Lone Echo’s multiplayer spin-off, Echo Arena (also released today for free), you’ll know just how startling a revelation the game’s movement system is. Jack can grab onto any surface and then throw himself towards his next destination using entirely intuitive and natural movements. As you progress, you’ll also get thrusters to steer you through much bigger environments, but it’s those core mechanics that are the most engaging.

They become second nature almost instantaneously, and I often reminded myself of the movements I’ve seen real astronauts make as I hung onto the side of a computer to talk to Rhodes, or instantly stopped my zero-g drifting by quickly latching onto a handle.

​

Some not-very-spoilery footage of it in action here.

We know handholds & zero G movement were in FDev's minds during early design [1] [2], so hopefully they can get something similar in on this front

(Obviously ED will need some kind of foot locomotion for VR players too, but the advances made there seem be shuffling along at the moment. Will be interesting to see if the Fallout 4 stuff holds up, and how online competitive variants in games like Pavlov & Onward pan out)

 

[Hammre]

I think you are right. I haven't tried lone echo but have watched my son get quite good at the arena edition. I was a bit reluctant to try it because the ISS mission demo made me uneasy if I used thrusters. However, the hand hold method was very intuitive and didn't cause any discomfort.

 

[VR Golgot]

I think you are right. I haven't tried lone echo but have watched my son get quite good at the arena edition. I was a bit reluctant to try it because the ISS mission demo made me uneasy if I used thrusters. However, the hand hold method was very intuitive and didn't cause any discomfort.

Yeah I've heard interesting ideas on 'strafing' being a common cause of nausea with thruster gameplay (like moving away from the vector you're looking down). I wonder if the wrist jets stuff helps as well with that? (Possibly because you're normally thrusting in the direction you're looking, with hands in front as cues? Or maybe you give your body a cue by holding your arm out for lateral pull?)

I'm just guessing, as don't have VR yet, but I'm intrigued

 

[Drelthar]

Would be great if they learned from this in the same way they learned from Star Trek bridge crew for their implementation of multicr.... oh wait.

 

[Han Zulu]

Looks really good, both as a game but also the locomotion.

 

[VR Golgot]

Would be great if they learned from this in the same way they learned from Star Trek bridge crew for their implementation of multicr.... oh wait.

Apples and oranges fella. Bridge Crew was 2 years work (with some bonus VR skunk work behind it) versus FDev's 6 months approx of design dev (integrating into an existing game). They could have tried something that replete in that timeframe, but it would have been far shoddier. Probably better to do something simpler that works if that's the timeframe they were stuck with.

We'd all like shiny stuff. At least Legs are pitching to be shiny full-flagship additions, not milestones on a bigger roadmap. Better chance of them giving the R&D it'd need to be solid.

Looks really good, both as a game but also the locomotion.

Yeah, good to see some chunkier stuff coming out. The story mode is only about 6 hours apparently, but the arena might have legs

 

[Han Zulu]

I just bought it and playing it. It's really really great. Haven't felt vertigo or nausea at all.

 

[BlackSpaceCowboy]

I just bought it too. It's an amazing game. I also end up wishing I could do this in ED.

I would love a game where they gave you a large ship or space station that you could move around in. It has a air lock you can use to get outside and do repairs etc. A fully functional ship. Then throw in a survival game where you need to maintain and command your ship to survive. That would be a lot of fun.

 

[[VR] Deggial]

The linked movie looks indeed impressive! I've stopped watching to avoid spoilers, as I might buy it now ...

The question is: what does make the VR locomotion more bearable there than in other games? Honestly, this issue is what holds my enthusiasm back most regarding space legs in ED.
Is it the fact that you grab handles with your hand, pulling you forward only short distances and then resting for a while? This concept works well in "The Climb" at least.

Regarding "Adr1ft", I've read the opposite by the way, namely that it is actually quite nausea-inducing. Were those reports exaggerated?

 

[VR Golgot]

The linked movie looks indeed impressive! I've stopped watching to avoid spoilers, as I might buy it now ...

The question is: what does make the VR locomotion more bearable there than in other games? Honestly, this issue is what holds my enthusiasm back most regarding space legs in ED.
Is it the fact that you grab handles with your hand, pulling you forward only short distances and then resting for a while? This concept works well in "The Climb" at least.

Regarding "Adr1ft", I've read the opposite by the way, namely that it is actually quite nausea-inducing. Were those reports exaggerated?

There's an interesting Reddit discussion on what Echo has done differently. This post sums up a lot of the stronger theories:

Since I study this stuff professionally (and Echo Arena is my new favorite case study):

1. Mission:ISS uses yaw (there is no up), which is the #1 cause of motion sickness. Someone I was playing with turned it on in Echo Arena and started getting sick. Echo Arena keeps you upright by default
2. Larger spaces are less sickness causing than small spaces, because your eyes see less vection.
3. The HUD gives a fixed point in front of you, which reduces motion sickness
4. The primary booster is an instant acceleration in the direction you are looking, at a time you decide. This minimizes motion sickness from acceleration since instant > gradual, forward > sideways, expected > unexpected.
5. Other players cannot unexpectedly change your directory. This would be extremely nausea inducing. Instead, it's whoever is being grabbed that has control. You can still get nauseous from grabbing onto someone because of this, but generally you're looking at the person you're grabbing, creating a large fixed point in your field of view. (Also note, grabbing someone instantly matches your velocities, minimizing acceleration)
6. If you are unfortunate enough to be using a 180 setup, snap turning works pretty well (instant turn rather than showing the vection + acceleration).
7. When you are playing, most of the time you are focusing on either the disk or the disk indicator, both of which are fixed points that distract you from your own motion.

Edit (comments on this post):

1. Sound played when bumping into objects/walls prevent motion sickness from the unexpected deceleration
2. Relatively plain textures (textures with too much going on increase vection, and can also cause other visual pain)
3. The hand jets are physically aimed, so you are expecting the movement (user activated) and are aiming it with actual motion (increased vestibular override). Additionally, the vast majority of the time you are using the hand thrusters to go the same direction you are looking.

 

[[VR] Deggial]

Thank you, Golgot, for your answer and especially the excerpt (so digging through a reddit thread isn't necessary)!

Well, if it truely proves correct what the reddit poster states, I really hope FDev take a close look on these results and implements their approach on space legs accordingly!
The sheer existance of such solutions restors my faith in ED's VR future quite a bit, to be honest. I can't play ED without VR any more and a whole game mechanic that almost inevitably causes nausea wasn't something to look forward to.

Very useful thread, this one!

 

[Andovar]

Someone mentioned this in another VR thread: https://www.3drudder.com/

Not that ED should rely on an external piece of hardware. But I'm still considering one, as I have a feeling (hoping) that the physical leg movements will help the brain stay in sync, and reduce any VR queasiness.

 

[VR Golgot]

Someone mentioned this in another VR thread: https://www.3drudder.com/

Not that ED should rely on an external piece of hardware. But I'm still considering one, as I have a feeling (hoping) that the physical leg movements will help the brain stay in sync, and reduce any VR queasiness.

Yeah there seems to be something to be said for giving your body some kind of physical sync with the direction you're moving in game. Even if it's just an minor analogue seems like it might give the body enough cues to override the conflicting inputs (or lack of expected ones).

Thought this post by a vertigo expert was interesting on that front:

Here is my take. I don't know a lot about VR sickness specifically but I do take care of a lot of people with vertigo. Our understanding of where we are in space is a result of integration of three different inputs : the vestibular labyrinth in the inner ear, the eyes, and the nerves within the muscles of the extremities and spine. When all three of these agree with each other, as in while walking down the street, there are no problems. However, when one of those inputs disagrees with the other two, you can become quite uncomfortable as in when you are in the cabin of a boat in rough seas, and your inner ear and the nerves and muscles are telling you that there is motion but your eyes are telling you that there is not. This is similar to what happens in VR, as there is a complete absence of vestibular input from the ear except for slight movements of the head. This disagreement probably causes sickness. In most games, all of the information with regard to movement is coming from the eyes. However, in Lone Echo and Echo Arena, you are getting a lot of input from the arms and potentially legs with regards to motion, and I suspect that this supplementation of the typical information coming to the brain is why it is so much more comfortable to play. Just my two cents.

Arms seem to work with Echo as a prompt, but for foot locomotion this kit looks like a neat way to involve the legs/feet. (Not sure I'm super persuaded by it, but the principle looks sound).

 

[Han Zulu]

I just bought it too. It's an amazing game. I also end up wishing I could do this in ED.

I was imagining that it was in the ED universe. The planet with the rings looked so familiar...

I would love a game where they gave you a large ship or space station that you could move around in. It has a air lock you can use to get outside and do repairs etc. A fully functional ship. Then throw in a survival game where you need to maintain and command your ship to survive. That would be a lot of fun.

It would be, but perhaps we're just wanting too much from a single game? *shrugs* We'll see. But I can say, if they implement this kind of 1st person motion in ED for space-legs, I would be happy. (But is it space legs if we're not using them? hmm...)

 

[Han Zulu]

The linked movie looks indeed impressive! I've stopped watching to avoid spoilers, as I might buy it now ...

The question is: what does make the VR locomotion more bearable there than in other games? Honestly, this issue is what holds my enthusiasm back most regarding space legs in ED.
Is it the fact that you grab handles with your hand, pulling you forward only short distances and then resting for a while? This concept works well in "The Climb" at least.

I think part of it is that it's not so fast. Because of how you have to move, the speed isn't there. You have to take your time a bit. Secondly, you're locked to a horizontal view. You can't pitch or roll. It's only yaw and translations. It was a little confusing at first.

One good thing too in there is that you can rotate (yaw) with the right joystick, otherwise you end up spinning on your chair. This make sitting and playing in one spot very feasible, which ED has to consider. Space legs can't require walking in room or standing, but sitting in a front-looking position, otherwise the flying will suffer.