Make T9 and Beluga more usefull and specialized.

[Misty_Dark]

i agree. what gets me irritated is that it is a $60M+ ship and it is absolutely PATHETIC at defending itself. i get interdicted constantly. usually in the home stretch, and usually by the same god damned guy. it can barely fight the interdiction, but god forbid you submit or lose you are dead within 30s-1m shields might buy you another 5-10sec. i have module priorities set right but it doesnt matter. the first thing to go is usually my FSD so there is no escape. you cant even turn and fight because you cant maneuvar enough to face the enemy. no it is just running and getting right up the @$$. the only hope is for security to get there before you die. i heard about using mines. tried that too with chaff. mines dont do any good, they almost never hit.

the other main issue is its jump distance. max is 10-20ly (closer to the 10ly range). each jump is another chance to get interdicted. now. i get that being a freighter has its risks, especially when solo, but it is pretty ridiculous for the tier ship it is. i should be able to fight off vipers and below with no problem. but i cant do that if i can never face them. i get that you're supposed to just run. but sometimes that isnt even an option.

all i know is that if someone is gonna work hard enough to earn this ship and outfit it properly. it should feel more secure and rewarding. not punishing.

So there are a few things here...
That jumprange, that sounds like stock A-rated Type 9 with a 6A FSD.
Something like 12 Fully loaded and 18 without cargo... Which is pretty typical jumprange without any bonuses...

Simply doing some FSD upgrade(one of the esier engineers to unlock), will improve these numbers to something like 18 LY if fully loaded and 28 emtpy.
If you spend some time unlocking the guardian FSD Booster, that will give you a FLAT range incrase based on the size of the module.
Class 1 - 4 LY
Class 2 - 6 LY
Class 3 - 7.75LY
Class 4 - 9.25 LY
Class 5 - 10.50 LY
So even a class 2 would give a good boost of 6 LY! without sacrificing to much cargo space!

So that give you a fully loaded range of nearly 24 LY and empty over 34 LY.

That is not bad...

Now compare this to the Cutter, similar build as the Type 9, no range bonuses, and we get fully loaded 14 LY, and empty 19, that is not a huge difference to the stock Type 9.
We do the same engineering on the FSD only, now we get to 21 LY fully loaded and 30 empty, a little better, but still not earth shattering difference.
And here we can also add FSD booster, to give a flat range increase.

So bashing Type 9 for it jump range as inferior to Cutter is a not a good argument, as the Cutter is not that much better...
My Type 9 that is heavily engineered, does 22 LY with 752 T of cargo and 31 LY empty. Cost 358 Million. (have a class 2 FSD Booster, 6 LY)
My Cutter that is also equally engineered, and have one of those fabled Class 5 shields, 29 LY with 752T cargo and 37.6 LY empty. Cost 1154 Million.. (have a class 3 FSD Booster, 7.75LY)

If I reconfigure my Cutter with a class 6 shield, and remove the FSD booster, I get to haul 730T, but that now changes it to have 21 LY fully loaded, and 29 empty..


They are so expensive since I run Reactive Armour on them... 180 Million on the Type 9, and 493 Million on the Cutter.



Cutter can make 3 jumps, the Type 9 can do more than 3 jumps!


So type 9 is 3 times cheaper than the Cutter
Does not require any Empire ranks to buy
Can do more jumps on a single fuel tank

Is worse at combat
Have slightly worse jumprange


So if we ingore the fact that there have been fast tracks to earn Empire ranks, it takes ALOT of effort to gain ranks and Cutter is the last Imperial ship you unlocks...

 

[Ascendingbike42]

The max possible jump range for a t9 with engineers and fsd booster is 44.92 the cutter only gets around 4 more lys more than the t9 so jump range isn't an issue especially since the type 9 can do 8 full range jumps before it needs refueling

 

[MK Regular]

The type 9 is decent, it just needs a much higher MLF.

Imo, there are a few ships that could use a MLF rebalance. I've been trying to come up with an equaiton that can predict the MLF of a ship based on empirical data, and so far the best one I have is:

MLF = FSD Size + Sensor Size + Hull Mass / 100 (rounded down) + 1

For reference, here is a graph of all of the ships in ED after I plug them into the equation:

The data seems to fit reasonably well with the potential for some error for balancing purposes. That said, there are 5 distinct outliers in the data:

• Anaconda is 4 MLF above the predicted value
• Orca is 4 MLF above the predicted value
• Beluga is 4 MLF below the predicted value
• Type 9 is 3 MLF below the predicted value
• Imperial Clipper is 3 MLF below the predicted value

It should be possible change the MLFs to bring them within the +/-2 range that all of the other ships have, and the minimum amount of change to do so would only see 3 of the ships getting buffed or nerfed in a meaningful way:

• Imperial Clipper is no longer mass locked by the AspX, and can mass lock the Chieftain family
• Orca can no longer mass lock the Krait II or the Type 9, and can be mass locked by the Krait Phantom and the Dropship family
• Type 9 can now mass lock the Krait II and the Orca, but is still venerable to the Python

Anaconda and Beluga wouldn't gain or lose the ability to mass lock or avoid mass lock from ships, and are effectively unchanged. The same graph with the changed MLF values would look like this:

Edit: For anyone who may be confused by my choice of variables, I'm working on the assumption that MLF is a combination of factors (not solely mass, although it is a major contributor) that "interfere" with other ships' FSDs. In this case a ship's mass, FSD size, and sensor size all interfere with another ship's FSD.

 

[Rytram]

So there are a few things here...
That jumprange, that sounds like stock A-rated Type 9 with a 6A FSD.
Something like 12 Fully loaded and 18 without cargo... Which is pretty typical jumprange without any bonuses...

Simply doing some FSD upgrade(one of the esier engineers to unlock), will improve these numbers to something like 18 LY if fully loaded and 28 emtpy.
If you spend some time unlocking the guardian FSD Booster, that will give you a FLAT range incrase based on the size of the module.
Class 1 - 4 LY
Class 2 - 6 LY
Class 3 - 7.75LY
Class 4 - 9.25 LY
Class 5 - 10.50 LY
So even a class 2 would give a good boost of 6 LY! without sacrificing to much cargo space!

So that give you a fully loaded range of nearly 24 LY and empty over 34 LY.

That is not bad...

Now compare this to the Cutter, similar build as the Type 9, no range bonuses, and we get fully loaded 14 LY, and empty 19, that is not a huge difference to the stock Type 9.
We do the same engineering on the FSD only, now we get to 21 LY fully loaded and 30 empty, a little better, but still not earth shattering difference.
And here we can also add FSD booster, to give a flat range increase.

So bashing Type 9 for it jump range as inferior to Cutter is a not a good argument, as the Cutter is not that much better...
My Type 9 that is heavily engineered, does 22 LY with 752 T of cargo and 31 LY empty. Cost 358 Million. (have a class 2 FSD Booster, 6 LY)
My Cutter that is also equally engineered, and have one of those fabled Class 5 shields, 29 LY with 752T cargo and 37.6 LY empty. Cost 1154 Million.. (have a class 3 FSD Booster, 7.75LY)

If I reconfigure my Cutter with a class 6 shield, and remove the FSD booster, I get to haul 730T, but that now changes it to have 21 LY fully loaded, and 29 empty..


They are so expensive since I run Reactive Armour on them... 180 Million on the Type 9, and 493 Million on the Cutter.



Cutter can make 3 jumps, the Type 9 can do more than 3 jumps!


So type 9 is 3 times cheaper than the Cutter
Does not require any Empire ranks to buy
Can do more jumps on a single fuel tank

Is worse at combat
Have slightly worse jumprange


So if we ingore the fact that there have been fast tracks to earn Empire ranks, it takes ALOT of effort to gain ranks and Cutter is the last Imperial ship you unlocks...

i suppose i need to stop getting distracted with those tasty [OUTBREAK] missions and actually focus on the engineers for a bit.

but still, the jump range is the minor issue. the major issue is that even equipped it is pretty much defenseless. why even allow for the hardpoints it has if you cant use em?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Imo, there are a few ships that could use a MLF rebalance. I've been trying to come up with an equaiton that can predict the MLF of a ship based on empirical data, and so far the best one I have is:

MLF = FSD Size + Sensor Size + Hull Mass / 100 (rounded down) + 1

For reference, here is a graph of all of the ships in ED after I plug them into the equation:

View attachment 148624

The data seems to fit reasonably well with the potential for some error for balancing purposes. That said, there are 5 distinct outliers in the data:

• Anaconda is 4 MLF above the predicted value
• Orca is 4 MLF above the predicted value
• Beluga is 4 MLF below the predicted value
• Type 9 is 3 MLF below the predicted value
• Imperial Clipper is 3 MLF below the predicted value

It should be possible change the MLFs to bring them within the +/-2 range that all of the other ships have, and the minimum amount of change to do so would only see 3 of the ships getting buffed or nerfed in a meaningful way:

• Imperial Clipper is no longer mass locked by the AspX, and can mass lock the Chieftain family
• Orca can no longer mass lock the Krait II or the Type 9, and can be mass locked by the Krait Phantom and the Dropship family
• Type 9 can now mass lock the Krait II and the Orca, but is still venerable to the Python

Anaconda and Beluga wouldn't gain or lose the ability to mass lock or avoid mass lock from ships, and are effectively unchanged. The same graph with the changed MLF values would look like this:

View attachment 148625

That's some nice work and analysis.

However, it still feels wrong to me that a Python can mass lock a Type 9.

Maybe its a name thing. I look at the type 9 and i think MAAAAAAASSSSSS..... and then a ship which looks less massy can mass lock it.

Maybe if it was called something else... i don't know, FSD POWAH or something, i might have an easier time accepting it.

 

[MK Regular]

That's some nice work and analysis.

However, it still feels wrong to me that a Python can mass lock a Type 9.

Maybe its a name thing. I look at the type 9 and i think MAAAAAAASSSSSS..... and then a ship which looks less massy can mass lock it.

Maybe if it was called something else... i don't know, FSD POWAH or something, i might have an easier time accepting it.

I mean, mass can easily be the single largest factor of MLF for some of the larger ships (Cutter gets 11 MLF from it's hull mass, Type 10 gets 12) with the equation I got, so it's not as if calling it "Mass Lock Factor" is entirely disingenuous.

Although yeah, the Type 9 really shouldn't be mass locked by the Python. I'd take an extra 2 MLF for my Type 9 over an extra 64 tons of cargo any day.

 

[Havvk]

Use a fighter to cover you when you submit to the interdiction. Always submit in the type 9 unless you are sure you can escape it. If you can engineer the fsd and get a gfsd booster

By the time your fighter even starts taking off, you're already on the rebuy screen. Only a top-notch pilot could survive in a Beluga against a ganker of any skill above noob level. And even then, that's a big maybe

 

[EXE Sasser]

Flying a type 9 I can agree with the cargo side of it running less cargo than a cargo fitted Cutter.

Take off the shields of both and the results?

Cutter :792 tonnes
Type 9 :790 tonnes

If you ask me, add another slot, at least a 6 to the Type 9 and buff it's jump range significantly.

As for the Beluga considering its supposed to be a passenger specialised ship, let alone its size still holds a below average amount of passengers despite the many internals it has.

 

[Lestat]

So what you want is to make Cheap ships better. How does that help the game? If they follow your request are you willing to pay a higher price for those ships because they are inline of More expensive ships?

 

[Hank]

I've owned all the big ships but the Beluga was my no. 1 money maker for a couple of years. I sold it several months ago to buy one of the other big ones.
I just rebought it for mining and its working great for my style of mining. It has enough slots for me to take all the tools I need for almost any situation and I still have 256 cargo capacity. It jumps around 30 Ly and I don't normally have to worry about fuel. Plus, the view is amazing compared to my other mining vessel, a Vette. Besides making me money in the past hauling cargo and passengers And avoiding every interdiction 100% thrown at me, this new task for my whale (Fish n Chiks) is working out wonderfully.

 

[ebbrell]

T9 has larger capacity over cutter depending on internals fitted.

The only thing I think the t9 needs are better defences hardpoints. Either make the existing top and bottom ones larger or add 1 extra to top and bottom.

 

[Rick6549]

By the time your fighter even starts taking off, you're already on the rebuy screen. Only a top-notch pilot could survive in a Beluga against a ganker of any skill above noob level. And even then, that's a big maybe

Uh huh, you dont know much about the beluga do you

 

[Morbad]

Plenty of ships are largely obsolete, because their niches were contingent on their affordability. Not a fan of re-balancing ships when the crux of the problem is the lack of an economy. T-9 probably shouldn't have received it's last buff.

Also, MLFs are largely arbitrary. A python can masslock at T9 because a T9 is intended to be pirateable. Doesn't work too well in practice, but those are the sorts of considerations dictating masslock factors.

 

[CMDR Don Samen]

I've done much consideration regarding the comments here The T9/Cutter discussion is somewhat more complex. The Cutter is basically luxury T9, cost more, have more firepower etc. But they do basically the same at a very different cost and availability (imperial ranking). But the availability is not such a great point either. I used less then a day to rank from basically zero to imperial king with a Cobra MK III.

But with the Beluga the story is different given its size, the biggest ship. Compare it with the Corvette and the Cutter and then see the internal modules. It could without problems also have two class 8 slots like the cutter. But unlike any other ships, those slots could fit 4 class 6 cabins, or have class 7 fitting 2 class 6 cabins or 4 class 5 cabins etc. That would make the passanger liners much more usefull than other ships when it comes to passanger hauling. The possibility to put 4 first class cabins for 3 passangers in one class 6 slot could give possibility for more VIP passanger missions even in the Orca.

 

[Captain Willard]

Pretty funny actually. The Beluga was the premier passenger ship until FD caved in over all the crying.
Now it's just a mediocre biowaste hauling multirole ship.
I always thought the fighter bay was a waste on a ship that could out boost and out jump most ships
Now you want to specialize it again?

 

[MK Regular]

Pretty funny actually. The Beluga was the premier passenger ship until FD caved in over all the crying.
Now it's just a mediocre biowaste hauling multirole ship.

I would argue that the Beluga was NOT the premier passenger ship (unless you could find multiple luxury passenger missions) before FDev removed the restriction on the slots.

With respect to the buff, FDev opted to make the Beluga a respectable multirole ship instead of making it the premier passenger ship. I'm not going to complain about the Beluga's improved capabilities as a multirole ship, but I am somewhat confused about about why it still isn't the premier passenger ship.

Now you want to specialize it again?

I wouldn't say "specialize", more like "give it the buff it should have gotten in the first place" with the reversal of the buff we ended up getting being optional (although I can't see it being reversed even if the Beluga got another size 6 optional or something).

There is nothing that says that the Beluga can't be both a respectable multirole ship and the premier passenger ship.

 

[Captain Willard]

I'm sorry. The Beluga had a buff and a heat reduction, shortly after changed to multirole.
A sad day.
Yes. Some of us did find stations that dropped multiple luxury mission thru out a night.
Being allied with all seven factions helped that out at different station economies.
Don't let me confuse you with the facts.

 

[MK Regular]

I'm sorry. The Beluga had a buff and a heat reduction, shortly after changed to multirole.
A sad day.
Yes. Some of us did find stations that dropped multiple luxury mission thru out a night.
Being allied with all seven factions helped that out at different station economies.
Don't let me confuse you with the facts.

I stand corrected then.

My point still stands though. There is nothing that says that the Beluga can't be both a respectable multirole ship and the premier passenger ship.

 

[Captain Willard]

Fair enough.

 

[Noobilite]

I'm hoping they add more luxury missions. Maybe have a stations with a luxury passenger section or a new type of mission when legs and internal ships are added that is literally a luxury cruise line where your crew can help take care of guests and you have teh equipment you can buy that the NPC shps always say breaks down. You could expand the game massively with that. Even add in space reviews attached to your character making it easier or harder to get passenger missions.