Powerplay "Merit trading" - And how to fix it

[Alexander the Grape]

For those who weren't aware, there exists the possibility to exploit the mechanics of powerplay for vast personal enrichment or 5th columning, and it needs to be fixed ASAP.

Since dropped fortification cargo for aligned powers gives 5 merits per ton, you can swap cargo with an aligned power pledged player to either grind merits or deliberately undermining systems (for nefarious or beneficial purposes).

However, I wouldn't want to see a reduction in the merits given for fortification cargo: as someone who loves PvE piracy (on a side note, please let us turn in merits from cargo for unaligned powers also!) I'd hate to see this mechanic die.

My solution would be to increase the cost of fast tracking 5x, whilst increasing the effectiveness per ton of fortification 5x also. Not only would this prevent this exploit from being so cost-effective, it would also buff those who cannot afford to fast track and instead have to rely on the "free" PP cargo given (which currently is painfully slow).

It would also push merit grinders towards harmless over-fortification, rather than negative over-preparation of close, awful systems

Thoughts?

 

[Martin Schou]

Nothing is broken. It's just a new way of using the PowerPlay mechanics.

Increasing the cost and then increasing the effectiveness won't fix anything. All that'll do is make fortifications much easier. Now, instead of having to ferry five Anaconda loads dozens of light years, you now only need to ferry one Anaconda load.

They could reduce the effectiveness of PowerPlay piracy by reducing the value to a 1:1 return, but I'm honestly not sure about that either.

 

[Apos]

They could reduce the effectiveness of PowerPlay piracy by reducing the value to a 1:1 return, but I'm honestly not sure about that either.

That could work if NPC PP ships were coded to have proper trading builds and full loads.

Efficiency would probably stay around the same when taking in account the travelling time between delivering said cargo and pirating again.

 

[Alexander the Grape]

Nothing is broken. It's just a new way of using the PowerPlay mechanics.

Being able to undermine your own power from within, much faster than any other method, while making far more merits, with no viable counter, is broken

 

[Etherimp]

Being able to undermine your own power from within, much faster than any other method, while making far more merits, with no viable counter, is broken

Not sure if that's broken. Larger powers (ALD, Hudson, AD) with a lower percentage of organized players (We may have larger player groups but we control less of our player-base) are haunted by Grinders. Hudson and ALD and AD especially have a very very very hard time controlling what systems get prepped/expanded/fortified. Furthermore, shedding negative CC income systems is damn near impossible without assistance from your own allies. If you have a -75 CC system being expanded into, like Hudson does right now, and you have grinders grinding out merits in it because it's lucrative for them but hurts the power as a whole, there is literally nothing Hudson can do about it...

...Unless we undermine them, or they undermine themselves into turmoil.


This, of course, is dangerous, and comes at a cost. It's dangerous in that it opens you up for sniping. And it comes at the cost of going into turmoil and losing any possibly POSITIVE CC systems as well as the negative one. This mechanic essentially gives smaller, more organized player-groups with allies in other Imperial/Fed/Indi the opportunity to prevent bad systems from expanding and possibly shed some bad (or good) systems as well.

If you want to talk about "balance", I think that's a whole different argument. The powers are not balanced. It's that simple, and there are hundreds of examples. Mahon for example has no allies to turn to, so they simply can't take advantage of this. Some powers (Torval, Mahon, etc), do fortification from inbound instead of outbound.. Which makes them susceptible to blockading much more than other powers. Some powers have very high population density in their space (Hudson) while others have little population and therefore all of their systems are going to be less CC (Aisling). Some powers have awesome weapons (Winters, ALD, Aisling, Patreus), while others have absolute rubbish weapons (Kumo, Mahon). Winters has a PVP weapon (Pulse Disruptors), while they aren't really the type of power which attracts PVPers (Hudson/ALD). Some powers expand through combat (Ald/Hudson/Kumo/Antal) while others expand through shipping. ALD gets a 100% bonus on ALL BOUNTY HUNTING, while Patreus got ... 90% off rearming?!? That's ridiculous.

Basically, the powers themselves are not balanced. Power-play is not really balanced. The piracy mechanic however isn't the problem.

 

[Alexander the Grape]

Not sure if that's broken. Larger powers (ALD, Hudson, AD) with a lower percentage of organized players (We may have larger player groups but we control less of our player-base) are haunted by Grinders. Hudson and ALD and AD especially have a very very very hard time controlling what systems get prepped/expanded/fortified. Furthermore, shedding negative CC income systems is damn near impossible without assistance from your own allies. If you have a -75 CC system being expanded into, like Hudson does right now, and you have grinders grinding out merits in it because it's lucrative for them but hurts the power as a whole, there is literally nothing Hudson can do about it...

...Unless we undermine them, or they undermine themselves into turmoil.


This, of course, is dangerous, and comes at a cost. It's dangerous in that it opens you up for sniping. And it comes at the cost of going into turmoil and losing any possibly POSITIVE CC systems as well as the negative one. This mechanic essentially gives smaller, more organized player-groups with allies in other Imperial/Fed/Indi the opportunity to prevent bad systems from expanding and possibly shed some bad (or good) systems as well.

If you want to talk about "balance", I think that's a whole different argument. The powers are not balanced. It's that simple, and there are hundreds of examples. Mahon for example has no allies to turn to, so they simply can't take advantage of this. Some powers (Torval, Mahon, etc), do fortification from inbound instead of outbound.. Which makes them susceptible to blockading much more than other powers. Some powers have very high population density in their space (Hudson) while others have for population and therefore all of their systems are going to be less CC (Aisling). Some powers have awesome weapons (Winters, ALD, Aisling, Patreus), while others have absolute weapons (Kumo, Mahon). Winters has a PVP weapon (Pulse Disruptors), while they aren't really the type of power which attracts PVPers (Hudson/ALD). Some powers expand through combat (Ald/Hudson/Kumo/Antal) while others expand through shipping. ALD gets a 100% bonus on ALL BOUNTY HUNTING, while Patreus got ... 90% off rearming?!? That's ridiculous.

Basically, the powers themselves are not balanced. Power-play is not really balanced. The piracy mechanic however isn't the problem.

I'm not sure "powerplay is balanced so unbalanced mechanics are fine" is really a valid argument. There's nothing stopping people from joining other powers to undermine their own in a beneficial way, and I don't think that should change: However, they should do so using the intended methods. Not to say that this method is exploiting, more that it wouldn't be in the spirit of powerplay. It becomes 5th columning, plain and simple,and 5th columning shouldn't be exponentially more powerful than standard powerplay, it ruins the whole point

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I'd also like to add that the advantage of being a larger power with better bonuses should be balanced by having a less invested playerbase and hence less organisation

 

[Etherimp]

I'm not sure "powerplay is balanced so unbalanced mechanics are fine" is really a valid argument. There's nothing stopping people from joining other powers to undermine their own in a beneficial way, and I don't think that should change: However, they should do so using the intended methods. Not to say that this method is exploiting, more that it wouldn't be in the spirit of powerplay. It becomes 5th columning, plain and simple,and 5th columning shouldn't be exponentially more powerful than standard powerplay, it ruins the whole point

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I'd also like to add that the advantage of being a larger power with better bonuses should be balanced by having a less invested playerbase and hence less organisation

The Piracy Mechanic is likely not going away or being "nerfed" any time soon. It's been in power-play since the very beginning, but only recently been used to any great effect.

Furthermore, you can't really say what mechanics are balanced or imbalanced until you balance the powers themselves, first. The piracy mechanic in and of itself seems fine to me. It's also not 5th Columning unless it's used against another power. I really wish people would stop using the "5th column" argument/accusation, or at least understand what 5th Column actually is and what it means in *this* game before putting everything they see that they do not like in that category.

Prime example: When Imperius announced that he would be going to Sirius in order to undermine bad ALD systems, he was called a "5th columner" by Feds. Now you're suggesting that we do exactly that in order to undermine ourselves, now that we've figured out a way to undermine ourselves without ever leaving our power. Furthermore, both the Feds and Empire are (and have been) using this tactic for a while now.

The reason there are "larger powers" (namely Hudson and ALD) is because they are inherently imbalanced and overly appealing to the player-base. Same reason people played Spain or France in Age of Empires III and the same reason so many Rogues and Warlocks and Resto Druids showed up in World of Warcraft: Arena. If you balanced the powers, this wouldn't be nearly the issue it is.

It's also an issue because of LARGE private groups which have NO contact (or care) for the Open community and our goals here. This is another example of "bad game balance".

 

[Alexander the Grape]

The Piracy Mechanic is likely not going away or being "nerfed" any time soon. It's been in power-play since the very beginning, but only recently been used to any great effect.

Furthermore, you can't really say what mechanics are balanced or imbalanced until you balance the powers themselves, first. The piracy mechanic in and of itself seems fine to me. It's also not 5th Columning unless it's used against another power. I really wish people would stop using the "5th column" argument/accusation, or at least understand what 5th Column actually is and what it means in *this* game before putting everything they see that they do not like in that category.

Prime example: When Imperius announced that he would be going to Sirius in order to undermine bad ALD systems, he was called a "5th columner" by Feds. Now you're suggesting that we do exactly that in order to undermine ourselves, now that we've figured out a way to undermine ourselves without ever leaving our power. Furthermore, both the Feds and Empire are (and have been) using this tactic for a while now.

The reason there are "larger powers" (namely Hudson and ALD) is because they are inherently imbalanced and overly appealing to the player-base. Same reason people played Spain or France in Age of Empires III and the same reason so many Rogues and Warlocks and Resto Druids showed up in World of Warcraft: Arena. If you balanced the powers, this wouldn't be nearly the issue it is.

It's also an issue because of LARGE private groups which have NO contact (or care) for the Open community and our goals here. This is another example of "bad game balance".

I think it will, if evidence emerges that it is not being used as intended. Trading cargo with another player to farm merits faster than intended, easier than intended, and cheaper than intended should not be allowed to be in the game, no matter the motivation.

I'm sure the way it's used now (IE to farm merits to beneficially undermine your own power from without or within) isn't fifth columning. However, the alternative use (using it to maliciously undermine the power your pledged to from within to benefit your "real" power) IS fifth columning, plain and simple.

I think it goes without saying that the mechanics of power play should make it so that the best way to support a power is to be pledged to it. Otherwise, what's the point of pledging at all?

 

[Etherimp]

I think it will, if evidence emerges that it is not being used as intended. Trading cargo with another player to farm merits faster than intended, easier than intended, and cheaper than intended should not be allowed to be in the game, no matter the motivation.

I'm sure the way it's used now (IE to farm merits to beneficially undermine your own power from without or within) isn't fifth columning. However, the alternative use (using it to maliciously undermine the power your pledged to from within to benefit your "real" power) IS fifth columning, plain and simple.

I think it goes without saying that the mechanics of power play should make it so that the best way to support a power is to be pledged to it. Otherwise, what's the point of pledging at all?

I agree with you on the last bit... We all recognized right away that this mechanic could be used in an "evil" way.. But that's how all tools are. A gun can protect, or can murder.

 

[Apos]

A gun can protect, or can murder.

Mahon's laser and the cytoscrambler disagree.

 

[Alexander the Grape]

I agree with you on the last bit... We all recognized right away that this mechanic could be used in an "evil" way.. But that's how all tools are. A gun can protect, or can murder.

Yeah, the current usage is understandable, I'm more worried about the potential ramifications.

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Mahon's laser and the cytoscrambler disagree.

He said gun, not the ship mounted equivalent of light up trainers