Mine Launcher - How i would fix them

[Lazerus Artificial]

Mine Launcher - How i would fix then

Mines are interesting, but not working in elite. I wondered why...is it just because of the damage?
So i thought about it...yes the damage is one part, but not the major one.
In Elite there was one major thing forgotten...
what do land and sea mines have in common?
both work basically in a 2D environment.

Landmines lay on the ground so that the enemy steps (or drives) onto it. A tank cant just jump to bypass them.
(look at my awesome drawing skills)

The vehicle cant go left, cant go right, cant jump or dig...all he can do is to drive into it or retreat.
Atleast if the scenario is a simple small passage. If it is a larger field, then you need to spread more mines, still the vehicle could not jump or dig to pass them.


Seamines work similar with different attachments or triggers, but again, a ship cant just "fly" over them.

Both, Ship on the surface and the Submarine cant pass it. The Sub can go up or down, but the proximity would still detonate that mine.
atleast not if there are several of them in a row or spread over a field.



Elite tried a similar attempt - throwing out a single mine...but here we have a 3D environment.
If it is in front of us, we have several directions to avoid it. up/down, left/right, we can just bypass them.


Now...how can a mine be adapted to a 3D environment to create an unpassable blockade?
It cant. Wait what? what is the sense of this topic then?
BUT you can maximise it.

A "clustermine" would be the easiest if not the only solution.
A single charge that spits out dozens of other charges in all directions - basically a cloud of bombs.
wouldnt that destroy your own ship then?
well...we allready have mines that can recognize friend or foe (atleast i heard about them a while ago), so why shouldnt they have them in elite? they would let friends pass unharmed while blowing up near your foes (of course you shouldnt be inside the field when this happens)
why would that be usefull?
well...instead of having a single container that floats in space and can be avoided by a passing asteroid, a cloud of mines would cover a larger area, making it harder to get past them. And thats exactly what they should do, right? Area Denial.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

I personally find a lot of sense in mines now. Your enemy is behind you and you run way. They have to alter their course or eat the mine. I don't really see an offensive application and I don't think there needs to be one.

I wouldn't mind seeing your cluster mine in game though... Area denial on a scale like that isn't exactly relevant to the current game. Do you feel otherwise?

 

[DocLooshkin]

I've been playing a fair while and spent a fair bit of time bounty-hunting NPCs. Every now and then, there'll be mines all over the place. I have literally no idea at all if I've ever hit a mine. If I have, I've not noticed. Evidently, they're not doing their job terribly well.

Your cluster-mine idea seems like a good solution. I can see an issue with too many mines left floating, so I would make them very short lived, but with more stopping power (by way of slowing and spinning a target rather than doing much more damage - we don't want them to be too powerful) - and have them in a large, evenly-spread disc, with the edges curving towards the pursuer, so they're forced to make a big detour if they want to avoid them entirely.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

If normal mines had a greatly increased fire rate (~2/s) and were launched with a tiny bit of velocity (1~5m/s) in a random perpendicular direction to the ship, would this achieve the desired result?

I know in powerplay they'll do both thermal and kinetic damage, which apparently makes them much more substantial.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

I've been playing a fair while and spent a fair bit of time bounty-hunting NPCs. Every now and then, there'll be mines all over the place. I have literally no idea at all if I've ever hit a mine. If I have, I've not noticed. Evidently, they're not doing their job terribly well.

Your cluster-mine idea seems like a good solution. I can see an issue with too many mines left floating, so I would make them very short lived, but with more stopping power (by way of slowing and spinning a target rather than doing much more damage - we don't want them to be too powerful) - and have them in a large, evenly-spread disc, with the edges curving towards the pursuer, so they're forced to make a big detour if they want to avoid them entirely.

The damage problem would be solved through the higher amount of mines in that area, it would be highly unlikely to trigger just one at a time.
so even the firecracker damage that they have now could make a difference if an Anaconda triggers like 10 or so at the same time.
The damage should not be too high as you said, onehitting a target would be way too much...ok thats maybe ok for small ships like a sidewinder.
I would also like to see them more as a "shockwave mine" that pushes the target away, spins it and so on, so that you can escape instead of using it as a pure combat tool.
Selfdestruct after a certain amount of time would also be needed as you said, i could imagine that it could scale with different tiers (if there are any), so like a minute or so at max.

If normal mines had a greatly increased fire rate (~2/s) and were launched with a tiny bit of velocity (1~5m/s) in a random perpendicular direction to the ship, would this achieve the desired result?

I know in powerplay they'll do both thermal and kinetic damage, which apparently makes them much more substantial.

dont think so.
there are enough videos on youtube where pilots have tried full minelaucher setups without results.
as i said, the main problem is not the damage or damage type, its mainly that its highly unlikely to hit them in a 3D space.
To use them propperly you would need to fly away from the target in a straight line - and that is the worst thing you can do.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

To use them propperly you would need to fly away from the target in a straight line - and that is the worst thing you can do.

I don't particularly agree with you on this. But let me clarify:

A straight line is the shortest path to the furthest distance from your enemy.

If the only means you have to defend yourself is maneuverability, then yes, going in a straight line would give you zero means to defend yourself.

But if you have any number of the following: mines, speed, or allies, then I'd say yes, go ahead and give up your maneuverability to make the others work better.
Complimented with things like chaff, and shields, I'd say your chance of survival increases.

However, you are right. Hardpoints need to be out to use mines, meaning you're not focused on leaving the fight, you're focused on attacking your opponent. There is no realistic situation where mines would do better than the smallest multicannon. Mines are simply not a viable combat option, as we have nothing worth defending.

Would they do better as a utility slot item? You can use those with hardpoints retracted.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

However, you are right. Hardpoints need to be out to use mines, meaning you're not focused on leaving the fight, you're focused on attacking your opponent. There is no realistic situation where mines would do better than the smallest multicannon. Mines are simply not a viable combat option, as we have nothing worth defending.

Would they do better as a utility slot item? You can use those with hardpoints retracted.

oh, i havnt even thought about that...
i was just thinking about the small size of one mine, to make it hit you would need to drop it into the path of your attacker, and that would mean that...well...he can hit you. and you dont want that^^
a field could just be thrown out without having to align perfectly for a hit, as long as you fly into the same direction it should work.

if they would push the target around like DocLooshkin suggested, you could keep them as a weapon. also if they would deploy a field they could stay like they are now.
you would have enough time to retract them and flee from that spot then.

 

[Gon]

I've used mines on a trader T6 I had with various results. You got interdicted, boost, launch 4 mines, boost again, retrieve hard points and jump away. Usually the pirate once you boost the first time will boost behind you and will eat the 4 mines in a row then he will have something to think while you leave. Once even I killed a pirate NPC eagle doing that.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

I've used mines on a trader T6 I had with various results. You got interdicted, boost, launch 4 mines, boost again, retrieve hard points and jump away. Usually the pirate once you boost the first time will boost behind you and will eat the 4 mines in a row then he will have something to think while you leave. Once even I killed a pirate NPC eagle doing that.

..Would you say your results would have been much better if you could have gotten more mines out in a shorter period of time?

 

[Gon]

..Would you say your results would have been much better if you could have gotten more mines out in a shorter period of time?

Nope, i think the time of launching is right, as a defensive weapon they are all right

 

[geoffrey.hdt]

If my opponent would flee and drop some mines, I would go after him and simply use lateral/vertical thrusters.
I do not believe this would alter my course much. So if both ships have the exact same speed, yep, mines may delay the pursuer, otherwise, not much of a difference.
I sadly still do not see the point to use mines as defense (and only during FSD cooldown since hardpoints must be deployed!).

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

If my opponent would flee and drop some mines, I would go after him and simply use lateral/vertical thrusters.
I do not believe this would alter my course much. So if both ships have the exact same speed, yep, mines may delay the pursuer, otherwise, not much of a difference.
I sadly still do not see the point to use mines as defense (and only during FSD cooldown since hardpoints must be deployed!).

Yeah, as a defense tool to escape they are useless.
in combat they are useless.
as traps they are useless...

i wonder if the 20 canister count also applies to them, then not even a large number can work

 

[Sylow]

Hmm... can't give you rep here, the system says i first have to again give rep to other people... seems like i agree a lot with things you write.

And yes, this might be a way to make mines at least valuable for some things.