Minimum price due to Demand needs to be quite a bit higher, now that most commodities have global demand.

[DemiserofD]

I get that FDev want to reward the first people to find a lucrative trade route.

The trouble is, after just a few people use that trade route, it becomes actively worse than other options, and punishes players for trying to work together as a team, which I think is a bad thing for a multiplayer game like this. When you've got 5000 players who want to sell, but only 10 of them can actually do so, it's almost not worth having those states existing at all.

To me, the solution to this is to increase the minimum price you'll see at zero demand.

Right now, for example, a system in Boom, Civil Liberty, and Public Holiday will start out buying Painite for 450k, but at zero demand, that drops down to 150k, 50k less than JUST boom/holiday or boom/pirate attack.

I think it would be better if the minimum price were more like 300k, so players still have reason to find these specialized states rather than just selling just about anywhere.

 

[varonica]

I get that FDev want to reward the first people to find a lucrative trade route.

The trouble is, after just a few people use that trade route, it becomes actively worse than other options, and punishes players for trying to work together as a team, which I think is a bad thing for a multiplayer game like this. When you've got 5000 players who want to sell, but only 10 of them can actually do so, it's almost not worth having those states existing at all.

To me, the solution to this is to increase the minimum price you'll see at zero demand.

Right now, for example, a system in Boom, Civil Liberty, and Public Holiday will start out buying Painite for 450k, but at zero demand, that drops down to 150k, 50k less than JUST boom/holiday or boom/pirate attack.

I think it would be better if the minimum price were more like 300k, so players still have reason to find these specialized states rather than just selling just about anywhere.

People keep demanding a realistic economy and here we go, try and make it emulate a real economy and people complain. Why, oh why would a market pay stupid money for something their market has been flooded with, in actual fact if that was the case you simply wouldn't be able to sell at all. You've flooded the place with toilet paper, all the warehouses are full, all shop shelves are full, everyone has a closet full, no-one wants to buy any! You turn up with a ship full of toilet paper then there should be no price for it, no way to sell it.

 

[Danieros]

The universe is huge and as market demands that get satisfied further trading needs to be directed elsewhere.

Your suggestion is very reasonable to a player's time (especially because of the reliance we currently have on third party tools, which can be outdated) but I think it would make the market less dynamic.

Because of it I think we need to make it more complex - with something like negative demand being put into place so that we have an extra layer of market dynamics (a market starts saving up for future consumption), it would make sense to have prices not get hit as hard at the 0 demand point.

 

[DemiserofD]

People keep demanding a realistic economy and here we go, try and make it emulate a real economy and people complain. Why, oh why would a market pay stupid money for something their market has been flooded with, in actual fact if that was the case you simply wouldn't be able to sell at all. You've flooded the place with toilet paper, all the warehouses are full, all shop shelves are full, everyone has a closet full, no-one wants to buy any! You turn up with a ship full of toilet paper then there should be no price for it, no way to sell it.

I've never demanded a realistic economy. In fact, I think a realistic economy is not only a terrible idea and a huge waste of resources better spent elsewhere, I think it's probably impossible given the framework of the game.

What I WANT, are game mechanics that can be used by more than a fraction of 1% of the players in the game.

Players are supposed to be rewarded for figuring out the stuff like where a good price is. But right now, the reward for that is lower prices than if they'd just never bothered at all. And sure, part of that trouble is caused by stuff like Inara sharing prices for all to see, but you don't fix that by just ruining the entire system for 99.99% of players in the game!

If you really want to make an interesting economy, fix it by making the high prices more rare and diverse. A huge part of what broke the mining game was the fact that ONLY ONE THING was being mined and sold, but that was only because that one thing was the ONLY thing that spiked to the highest price points!

A far better solution, in my mind, would be to make the price spikes for each individual commodity much more rare, but make there be many different TYPES of price spike. For example, each different powerplay faction could have a different type of preferred gemstone, and only that one would spike in price in their territory.

That way players never mine JUST Painite, they'll diversify, and when something new appears, they'll have to find a new way to acquire it. One week it would be core mining, the next laser mining, the next maybe subsurface mining, who knows? It would keep things fresh, interesting!

 

[BurglarOfBanff_ff]

With this new demand system, mining is a waste of time. I had my carrier way out from the bubble doing core mining. Came back with about 2000T to sell. Seems there is no way to find out where to sell or figure out how much you will get for it. What commodity should I mine if there is no way to predict what I'll get for it and I'll have to chase prices all around the bubble for days. Sad... could have been a simple price adjustment to fix mining, now it's really bad. Mining was what I enjoyed... maybe now catch up on my Subnautica play.

 

[Winterwalker]

With this new demand system, mining is a waste of time. I had my carrier way out from the bubble doing core mining. Came back with about 2000T to sell. Seems there is no way to find out where to sell or figure out how much you will get for it. What commodity should I mine if there is no way to predict what I'll get for it and I'll have to chase prices all around the bubble for days. Sad... could have been a simple price adjustment to fix mining, now it's really bad. Mining was what I enjoyed... maybe now catch up on my Subnautica play.

EDDB? INARA? You can do it locally in game from the galaxy map (commodity filter) or from the commodity market itself, looking for places that consume the goods and can even directly plot your route from there. Check the population while you're in the galaxy map. (Higher populations are likely to have higher demand but the bulk sales tax has been greatly reduced anyway). Mining is not as rich as it was (Galnet noted that possible war coming means precious gems, painites and diamonds are less important than war materiel) but the mid range commodity prices are still, perhaps even more, solid.

I was looking at this last night wondering about doing a market to market trade run with fleet carrier. In general it's not actually the price itself when you're buying to sell of course but the difference in prices, for your mark up. I couldn't immediately see many high price differentials. Consumer technology yes, but that was about it. Be nice if a real range of commodities had a high price variance between places that produce in bust and places that consume in boom, giving you some choice in the type of trader you want to be (industrial/foods/chemicals) that's driven by roleplay choice as the profits are basically the same and hopefully a bit more than a couple of hundred credits per ton. (with carrier I need to provide a cut to hauliers on two legs, loading and unloading)

 

[BurglarOfBanff_ff]

EDDB? INARA? You can do it locally in game from the galaxy map (commodity filter) or from the commodity market itself, looking for places that consume the goods and can even directly plot your route from there. Check the population while you're in the galaxy map. (Higher populations are likely to have higher demand but the bulk sales tax has been greatly reduced anyway). Mining is not as rich as it was (Galnet noted that possible war coming means precious gems, painites and diamonds are less important than war materiel) but the mid range commodity prices are still, perhaps even more, solid.

I was looking at this last night wondering about doing a market to market trade run with fleet carrier. In general it's not actually the price itself when you're buying to sell of course but the difference in prices, for your mark up. I couldn't immediately see many high price differentials. Consumer technology yes, but that was about it. Be nice if a real range of commodities had a high price variance between places that produce in bust and places that consume in boom, giving you some choice in the type of trader you want to be (industrial/foods/chemicals) that's driven by roleplay choice as the profits are basically the same.

I don't think you've actually tried selling core minerals. 3rd party tools said best station had a sell price of 900,000 and demand of 1100. Selling just 25T the station offered me 400,000. If there is a low global demand then the station pays you much less... except you can't actually tell what the global demand is and won't have any idea of the actual sell price until you get to the station - and in my experience it's only once been even half of the listed price.
I think market to market for gold or something will do much better. Mining is not worth the time or trouble now.

 

[Winterwalker]

I don't think you've actually tried selling core minerals. 3rd party tools said best station had a sell price of 900,000 and demand of 1100. Selling just 25T the station offered me 400,000.

I think that's mostly because your third party tool isn't up to the minute updated, was the demand still 1100 when you got there for example, maybe a T9 just unloaded five minutes before you.

My point is that core mined materials (which is something I do) is not as rich as it was but there was a lot of discussion before the recent rebalance that it was too rich. I think it probably was (really) even though I want to be filthy rich.

Perhaps the new trick is not to chase the absolute best prices which attract T9 deliveries and make prices volatile but go for a price just below the maximum but where it's less likely actions of other players will affect it before you get there.

 

[skananote]

With this new demand system, mining is a waste of time.

Indeed. I no longer do mining. FDev killed off mining in the last series of changes... Good job, we need more activities that are killed off. It will help ED to grow...

 

[iiMStevo]

People keep demanding a realistic economy and here we go, try and make it emulate a real economy and people complain. Why, oh why would a market pay stupid money for something their market has been flooded with, in actual fact if that was the case you simply wouldn't be able to sell at all. You've flooded the place with toilet paper, all the warehouses are full, all shop shelves are full, everyone has a closet full, no-one wants to buy any! You turn up with a ship full of toilet paper then there should be no price for it, no way to sell it.

This is exactly what should happen.
It makes no sense that the price for rare commodities are constantly going down because people are constantly fulfilling the demand, but common commodities that are never mined or provided with demands of 180,000t per week, are being completely ignored.


There shouldn't really be such a thing as a rare commodity since we're mining out the galaxy. Every commodity can be found in heavy supply, as long as you make the journey. So the only real thing pushing a commodity value should be the demand. But we're still selling to stations that require 500t of something, and fulfilling that demand because its price is significantly higher than stations sat asking for 180,000t of a commodity that no one provides.

My question is why isn't that commodity rising in price, week on week? The longer it goes without receiving and fulfilling the demand for that commodity, the bigger the price they should be willing to pay to fulfil their demand.

Instead of it being a random material, imagine if it was food. The station needs 180,000t of food. Nobody provides them food. Their entire population starves. Their trader is still sat there saying "Hey, please bring me low temperature diamonds. I have 0 need for them, but I want them".

 

[Llandrenel]

Honestly I just don't get why people keep saying mining is worthless now. Un-knot your knickers ladies and learn what makes a profit and where. Sure, painite and some others are less valuable now, but there's still plenty of things that are valuable, and painite does still make a decent amount of cash, just less than before. Deal with it, move on and stop complaining that your favourite 1 trick cash-grab gives you a bit less cash so now it'll take slightly longer to make money. All this talk of min-maxing profit and you have to do this, or that to make money really makes no sense to me. If you're not playing the game to have fun, then why are you playing? I find a certain amount of enjoyment form mining, so I care more for what I'm doing, than how much I get for it. Any I'm honestly confused by any other possible reasoning for playing.

Ok, sure, if you find that making money is what you find fun, then sure, move on to the biggest money making thing you can do without getting yourself repeatedly blown up. But to say something is "pointless" simply because the cash reward has decreased is entirely wrong. In fact, I often find myself doing things that specifically don't give me much cash, simply because it's what I wanna do at that time, or perhaps it has huge rep instead (which I know it rather pointless if you're already max rep with a faction).

 

[iiMStevo]

...Un-knot your knickers ladies...

 

[Llandrenel]

View attachment 200797

You saying I'm triggered, or suggesting my quote will cause people to be? Cause if the prior then absolutely knot.

 

[iiMStevo]

You saying I'm triggered, or suggesting my quote will cause people to be? Cause if the prior then absolutely knot.

Lol, I was suggesting that people could be triggered by that quoted selection.

 

[Llandrenel]

Eh, let them be. Wouldn't be the first time a keyboard warrior took offence at me, or something I said.

 

[BurglarOfBanff_ff]

I think that's mostly because your third party tool isn't up to the minute updated, was the demand still 1100 when you got there for example, maybe a T9 just unloaded five minutes before you.

My point is that core mined materials (which is something I do) is not as rich as it was but there was a lot of discussion before the recent rebalance that it was too rich. I think it probably was (really) even though I want to be filthy rich.

Perhaps the new trick is not to chase the absolute best prices which attract T9 deliveries and make prices volatile but go for a price just below the maximum but where it's less likely actions of other players will affect it before you get there.

The tools are up to date. I can pull into a station with EDPrices running and both Inara and EDDB update almost immediately. I don't mind the price adjustment, I thought it was too high as well. The problem is when I mine say 200T of Musgravite near a station where the price is 700k, by the time I finish mining the price is 250K and the good price is 600LY away. So I go 600LY only to find it's 300K there and the high price is somewhere else... etc. So either I just sell for 2-300K which is a waste of time or I try to chase the price all over the galaxy.
One serious problem to is that if you find a good price the you want to keep it a secret, so turn off EDprices so no one else knows. Then all the 3rd party tools are pretty much useless since no one is sending in data.

 

[skananote]

The tools are up to date. I can pull into a station with EDPrices running and both Inara and EDDB update almost immediately. I don't mind the price adjustment, I thought it was too high as well. The problem is when I mine say 200T of Musgravite near a station where the price is 700k, by the time I finish mining the price is 250K and the good price is 600LY away. So I go 600LY only to find it's 300K there and the high price is somewhere else... etc. So either I just sell for 2-300K which is a waste of time or I try to chase the price all over the galaxy.
One serious problem to is that if you find a good price the you want to keep it a secret, so turn off EDprices so no one else knows. Then all the 3rd party tools are pretty much useless since no one is sending in data.

And that is PRECISELY the problem. But hey, what do I know... Been there, done that. In it's current shape mining is ...

 

[Sensei Jacksama]

Honestly I just don't get why people keep saying mining is worthless now. Un-knot your knickers ladies and learn what makes a profit and where. Sure, painite and some others are less valuable now, but there's still plenty of things that are valuable, and painite does still make a decent amount of cash, just less than before. Deal with it, move on and stop complaining that your favourite 1 trick cash-grab gives you a bit less cash so now it'll take slightly longer to make money. All this talk of min-maxing profit and you have to do this, or that to make money really makes no sense to me. If you're not playing the game to have fun, then why are you playing? I find a certain amount of enjoyment form mining, so I care more for what I'm doing, than how much I get for it. Any I'm honestly confused by any other possible reasoning for playing.

Ok, sure, if you find that making money is what you find fun, then sure, move on to the biggest money making thing you can do without getting yourself repeatedly blown up. But to say something is "pointless" simply because the cash reward has decreased is entirely wrong. In fact, I often find myself doing things that specifically don't give me much cash, simply because it's what I wanna do at that time, or perhaps it has huge rep instead (which I know it rather pointless if you're already max rep with a faction).

Whenever people finnaly figure out that platinum and Osmium now pay the same amount as painite but the demand is way higher and the minerals are much more common we will have another gold rush for these items when someone finnaly discovers an overlapping Osmium/platinum hotspot. Everyone just ignores them because it's not painite or LTDs and they've probably just overlooked any overlaps.

 

[Llandrenel]

So either I just sell for 2-300K which is a waste of time or I try to chase the price all over the galaxy.
One serious problem to is that if you find a good price the you want to keep it a secret, so turn off EDprices so no one else knows. Then all the 3rd party tools are pretty much useless since no one is sending in data.

Well, isn't this the same as any kind of trading? Just because the price is good now doesn't mean it will be in an hour when you finish. Also, the high prices are always going to be places further away from the source of the items. That's how that works. Whether it's comodities trading from station to station, or mining, the further away from a system you got that produces X the more money you will make when selling it.

And that is PRECISELY the problem. But hey, what do I know... Been there, done that. In it's current shape mining is ...

It kinda isn't. I made about 100mil yesterday without even trying to in an anaconda. If I specifically went out to make cash and grabbed a T9 or something with a bigger hold, then went to a high-output system I could easily make that much in an hour or less.

Whenever people finnaly figure out that platinum and Osmium now pay the same amount as painite but the demand is way higher and the minerals are much more common we will have another gold rush for these items when someone finnaly discovers an overlapping Osmium/platinum hotspot. Everyone just ignores them because it's not painite or LTDs and they've probably just overlooked any overlaps.

This. ↑↑↑↑

ETA
Not to mention void opals are still pretty darn good. Sold mine to an FC last night for 650k/ton. And I think there was a station buying for 550, so not much difference there on the scale of it.

 

[Sensei Jacksama]

Well, isn't this the same as any kind of trading? Just because the price is good now doesn't mean it will be in an hour when you finish. Also, the high prices are always going to be places further away from the source of the items. That's how that works. Whether it's comodities trading from station to station, or mining, the further away from a system you got that produces X the more money you will make when selling it.


It kinda isn't. I made about 100mil yesterday without even trying to in an anaconda. If I specifically went out to make cash and grabbed a T9 or something with a bigger hold, then went to a high-output system I could easily make that much in an hour or less.


This. ↑↑↑↑

ETA
Not to mention void opals are still pretty darn good. Sold mine to an FC last night for 650k/ton. And I think there was a station buying for 550, so not much difference there on the scale of it.

I just did some research and apparently there are no Osmium hotspots. There might be a viable platinum double out there somewhere if we actually look for it. Even still Musgavite now sells for 1.1 million and most of the other core minerals go for over 900k. It's still a viable money maker but your not gonna be making 200 million an hour like we used too.