More sandbox, more sim, less manually injected stuffs

[LARY STARKEEPER]

Hi,

There is so many thread about what "we" want to see in ED, about the wrong things that Frontier did with the Powerplay...
The thing is, Elite: Dangerous is less and less a sandbox game. Yes you can choose what you're doing, but since almost every interesting stuff in it are "injected" by the devs, you can't do what you want... You can do what you want in the limits of what Frontier allowing you to do.

I never get bored in a game calling itself "sandbox" before ! Because things never ends ! But the more Frontier manually put in-game stuff through injected event, the less the game is a sandbox game. It's even worst than scripted events, because you can repeat scripted events ! What will happen to the game the day when Frontier will stops to manually puts things in it ?

First :
Many players asked for "player's written missions" like :
Player A pay 1000 Cr to put his own mission in a specific station and X Cr to reward the one who complete it. Or maybe be Allied with the station owner to make it.
Player B take the mission : Go in deep-space to refuel a player, transport commodities, etc...

Why this is a good thing ? Because it allow players to create non-generic content in addition of the generic content. This create more interaction, more immersion. Admit you don't want to have all and nothing in it, Frontier can write generic missions where the player just have to choose who, what and/or where they want to.

Second :
The game really suffers of a lack of contents AND features. The Powerplay wasn't necessary, and after a month in it, I can say that it's just a grindfest... Yes I want Archon Delaine to stay in the race, but if I don't care about the Powerplay, we will just disappear. It's boring.
We need more way to support our leader ! Why, as pirates, we don't have to pirates enemies ??? Why we just have to destroy them, take slaves, deliver them to Harma, take contraband, deliver it to X system ? The Powerplay adds unnecessary complexity to an "unfinished" game (unfinished because of the lack of content)...

Third :
There is a LOT of people asking to help Frontier to achieve their goal ! A lot of people with a lot of skill just asking to create stuff, to create content : Why shouldn't we be allowed to create our own decals ? Our own paintjobs ? Our own missions ? If Frontier fears about immersion breaking... Just give us the tools and accept or decline our propositions. It will take you less time to approve or not, than doing it yourself !

Fourth :
Let the sim do it ! Stop to inject events, like manual powerplay updates ! Do what you need to do once for all and let the game moves by itself when you're focusing on what really matter : Features !!!

Fifth :
I'm bored about being stuck in my seat... Bored about watching things moving around me in Starports without being able to reach them by foot...

Actually the game "Interstellar Rift", maybe ugly compared to Elite: Dangerous, maybe "cheap" compared to Elite: Dangerous, maybe less -everything you want-, makes me wanna play it... Instead of Elite: Dangerous. Because there is much more things to do in it ! Elite: Dangerous has promised so much, but after six months in it, I'm bored. And I'm not alone in this case. This never happened to me in a previous Elite game...

Then, Frontier, are you interested about making new customers or keep your actual community ? Money or Trust ?

Regards,

 

[Defacto]

I find it very unfortunate that FD didn't decide to do more with the political simulation and system economy. All this talk in devlogs and videos about how interesting situations would artise dynamically, etc... it's nowhere. The few bits that we have don't seem to work well, and the few connections that do exist are hard to track and understand.

PP feels so pointless to me, it feels like an attempt to push in all the interesting things that should come from the background sim but doesn't.

 

[Crowax]

How can FD make things wrong, it's THEIR game. I guess since it was crowd funded everyone automatically thinks they are co-creator of the game. If you want to create content so badly, if every player wants a feature they came up, then by all means, go and create your own game. And then you'll see how fun it is when everyone will complain because it's not "perfect" by their definition.

 

[CMDR Starschulz]

Is this game a sandbox? where does it say that?

 

[Defacto]

How can FD make things wrong, it's THEIR game. I guess since it was crowd funded everyone automatically thinks they are co-creator of the game. If you want to create content so badly, if every player wants a feature they came up, then by all means, go and create your own game. And then you'll see how fun it is when everyone will complain because it's not "perfect" by their definition.

Well, there was this thing called ''Design discussion forum'' where the elite developers discussed various design features in the game with people. Of course, they can't heed every request there, but I think it was expected that the features that were discussed as future parts of the game at least would make it into the game.

Then there are all the dev logs and videos where future features, design philosophies and situations which might play out in the completed game are discussed. It was assumed that these videos where about stuff that was going to happen in ED and not pretend-ideas about videogame fantasies.

 

[mono]

That's what I was thinking. It's a closed shop so will never be a sandbox unlike 'the gifts that keep giving' aka Arma II and Arma III.

Is this game a sandbox? where does it say that?

 

[Kayweg]

I find it very unfortunate that FD didn't decide to do more with the political simulation and system economy. All this talk in devlogs and videos about how interesting situations would artise dynamically, etc... it's nowhere. The few bits that we have don't seem to work well, and the few connections that do exist are hard to track and understand.

PP feels so pointless to me, it feels like an attempt to push in all the interesting things that should come from the background sim but doesn't.

In a game that relies on timers "ticking over" and hand injected events, the use of the term "dynamic" should probably have been avoided altogether.

I believe many of us thought, the background simulation alone could be influenced/manipulated enough by players to create dynamic, sudden and surprising situations/changes all by itself.

We were wrong.

 

[Tinman]

Hi,

There is so many thread about what "we" want to see in ED, about the wrong things that Frontier did with the Powerplay...

And here is another one!

First :
Many players asked for "player's written missions" like :
Player A pay 1000 Cr to put his own mission in a specific station and X Cr to reward the one who complete it. Or maybe be Allied with the station owner to make it.
Player B take the mission : Go in deep-space to refuel a player, transport commodities, etc...

Would also like to see this, but the game need to support it first.

Refuel? Sure that would work and is actually already something that "works" even if it's not supported "in-game".

But other than that? Transport commodities for someone? Why? What would the purpose be with in the current game? One player paying another one to go mine resources? Once again...why? If they ever decided to add manufacturing to the list of possible activities (which is far from certain) THEN these kind of player created missions would make sense but right now?

Third :
There is a LOT of people asking to help Frontier to achieve their goal ! A lot of people with a lot of skill just asking to create stuff, to create content : Why shouldn't we be allowed to create our own decals ? Our own paintjobs ? Our own missions ? If Frontier fears about immersion breaking... Just give us the tools and accept or decline our propositions. It will take you less time to approve or not, than doing it yourself !

Yes, I agree with this. Also things like "window dressing": Station variations and other type of facilities...a sort of officially validated modding if you will where FD checks the quality (and consistency with the art style) before including these in the game.

Fourth :
Let the sim do it ! Stop to inject events, like manual powerplay updates ! Do what you need to do once for all and let the game moves by itself when you're focusing on what really matter : Features !!!

Powerplay is mostly automatic already. Actually, in general more things are run automatically than people seem to think.

We set up the powers manually and can inject events or actions to support story, other than that it's all automatically managed.

Michael

 

[Crowax]

Well, there was this thing called ''Design discussion forum'' where the elite developers discussed various design features in the game with people. Of course, they can't heed every request there, but I think it was expected that the features that were discussed as future parts of the game at least would make it into the game.

Then there are all the dev logs and videos where future features, design philosophies and situations which might play out in the completed game are discussed. It was assumed that these videos where about stuff that was going to happen in ED and not pretend-ideas about videogame fantasies.

What's your point? Did they say all those features won't be in the game? Now I didn't follow ED before (unfortunately I didn't know they are making it, altho I was a fan of old elites), but didn't they say ED at start will be something like the old elite for new age, then they will gradually put in new features? Even if they didn't say so, it's obviously what they are doing.

If you want a game that will have all the promised features since day one, there is one, it's been in development for way too long, looks like it will never be finished. I personally prefer to play a finished game and wait for features and expansions to come out in the future, than wait another 10 years that they release it.

 

[LARY STARKEEPER]

How can FD make things wrong, it's THEIR game. I guess since it was crowd funded everyone automatically thinks they are co-creator of the game. If you want to create content so badly, if every player wants a feature they came up, then by all means, go and create your own game. And then you'll see how fun it is when everyone will complain because it's not "perfect" by their definition.

Ow... Did I bought a game that you're saying the dev don't care about me/us ?
Did I gave my money because they promised so much, but since it's THEIR game, I can die mouth open because I was so stupid that I paid for it ?
Hum... so yes, this is the last game I bought from FDev then.

Now listen mate : Crowdfunded or not, a game is NOTHING without it's community. Many triple A game totally failed because they had no community at all. And it's even WORST if they deceived their community. So yes... FD can makes things wrong !

What's your point? Did they say all those features won't be in the game? Now I didn't follow ED before (unfortunately I didn't know they are making it, altho I was a fan of old elites), but didn't they say ED at start will be something like the old elite for new age, then they will gradually put in new features? Even if they didn't say so, it's obviously what they are doing.

Since the game is called "Elite" it's and "Elite" game...

If you want a game that will have all the promised features since day one, there is one, it's been in development for way too long, looks like it will never be finished. I personally prefer to play a finished game and wait for features and expansions to come out in the future, than wait another 10 years that they release it.

Then you should have stayed in beta for 10 years...

 

[Cidcaldensfey]

What's your point? Did they say all those features won't be in the game? Now I didn't follow ED before (unfortunately I didn't know they are making it, altho I was a fan of old elites), but didn't they say ED at start will be something like the old elite for new age, then they will gradually put in new features? Even if they didn't say so, it's obviously what they are doing.

If you want a game that will have all the promised features since day one, there is one, it's been in development for way too long, looks like it will never be finished. I personally prefer to play a finished game and wait for features and expansions to come out in the future, than wait another 10 years that they release it.

You're screwed either way. FD already said this game has a development/shelf life of 10-years. Given the current state of the game and that its been out already for half a year, thats already 5% of its current lifespan. Not exactly thrilled or impressed outside of the universe model.

 

[Defacto]

What's your point? Did they say all those features won't be in the game? Now I didn't follow ED before (unfortunately I didn't know they are making it, altho I was a fan of old elites), but didn't they say ED at start will be something like the old elite for new age, then they will gradually put in new features? Even if they didn't say so, it's obviously what they are doing.

If you want a game that will have all the promised features since day one, there is one, it's been in development for way too long, looks like it will never be finished. I personally prefer to play a finished game and wait for features and expansions to come out in the future, than wait another 10 years that they release it.

Well I think some people may have gotten the picture that FD have decided to not keep developing that (unfinished) part of the game and instead focus on other things that were not a part of the original idea. This leaves some people feeling a bit disappointed, because the concepts that were shown to them, first in kickstarter videos, then in devlogs and dev video diaries, compiled into a pretty comprehensive design document and then presented and discussed on the design discussion forum, might have been what made them interested in the game in the first place.

Then there is the feeling that some ''complete'' features might be replacements for older features that never came to be, despite these newer features not living up to waht the original idea was supposed to accomplish. Compare, for example, the PP and/or the minor factions with the discussion on the political simulation.

As you say, many of these features might actually be realized in the future. This is a good thing, and it's not like I'm throwing in the towel and quitting ED because I don't like how PP works. That would be very silly! I've played this game a lot and I love it.

I think something that might also add to the worry of a lot of people is how quiet FD has become. No more design documents, no more open discussion about future features, and very little videos since release. Maybe this is just natural, since we aren't in Beta any more, but I still think it's a bit unfortunate.

 

[LARY STARKEEPER]

And here is another one!

Since it's a forum, I also deserve to say what I have to say. Nope ? I presume I made so many things wrong since I bought this game... (like trusting FD, like our mate Crowax just said)

Would also like to see this, but the game need to support it first.
Refuel? Sure that would work and is actually already something that "works" even if it's not supported "in-game".
But other than that? Transport commodities for someone? Why? What would the purpose be with in the current game? One player paying another one to go mine resources? Once again...why? If they ever decided to add manufacturing to the list of possible activities (which is far from certain) THEN these kind of player created missions would make sense but right now?

Why ? Because the game is supposed to be the support of player interactions.
Because it's supposed to create more diversity than "Transport X from A to B in a 15LY bubble". I'm trying to figure out why many of my friends have left the game before 1.2, came to see 1.2, then left again, then came to see 1.3 then left again. Because we're all expecting something that never came until now.

Powerplay is mostly automatic already. Actually, in general more things are run automatically than people seem to think.

Ok. Then, what will make a Power disappear ? And what will make emerging a new Power ?

 

[Muetdhiver]

Tinman raises good points.

IMO, a good sandbox game depend on the possibility for the players to create naratives.
This is only possible in a gameworld that has self-consistency and conflicts with meaningfull stakes, impacts and context.
(by conflict I do not speak of fight, but the more general conflicting goals/objectives conflicts)

This in turn is only possible if the player choices in actions are not too strongly biased by the underlying game mechanics
(think of credit generation imbalance biasing career choices), and if you provide enough hooks/bangs to get the player involved
and tools to mess with the gameworld in a meaningfull way.

The issue with ED at the moment (IMO), is that we have
1) underlying game mechanics biasing players actions/choices (eg. credit imbalance btw careers).
2) limited toolbox to interact with the gameworld/other players (mainly fight, buy, sell, mine, scan)
3) a gameworld that despite being rich, does not provide a rich context for players actions (low feedback, low stakes)

1) is easy to fix IMO, and FD appear to be doing it.
2) is harder, but PP, despite its flaws goes in the right direction.
3) is hardest, the gameworld would need more self-consistancy, and 'color' in the sense of different places actually feeling different. Raising stakes is usually done by raising the players attachment to some element of the gameworld and then threatening it. For the moment that is your ship(s) and your PP faction. Adding more way for the player to get invested in the game is good (system ?, secret base ?, stations ?) (note that being invested in != owning, but having some level of control over the game object and getting feedback from it).

 

[Vasea Azure]

How can FD make things wrong, it's THEIR game. I guess since it was crowd funded everyone automatically thinks they are co-creator of the game. If you want to create content so badly, if every player wants a feature they came up, then by all means, go and create your own game. And then you'll see how fun it is when everyone will complain because it's not "perfect" by their definition.

That's very very wrong attitude. I think the games are very tied to their communities, and it's a good thing. I don't see any harm in discussing ideas, and OP have a few good ones.
If we all shut up and wont post any ideas/feedback ED can only lose on that. Seriously, I don't even....

 

[Faerie]

How can FD make things wrong, it's THEIR game. I guess since it was crowd funded everyone automatically thinks they are co-creator of the game.

As a kickstarter backer I gave FD (plenty of) my money before there was even an outline of the game, so personally I can't complain, but they sold a lot of alpha & beta copies & raised a lot of money on the back of a description of a game they have yet to give us.
David Braben enthusiastically told us of a game with a dynamic economy & an evolving galaxy. Any sign of that ?
If they had made THAT game then there wouldn't be so many complaints now. Simples.

 

[Tinman]

Since it's a forum, I also deserve to say what I have to say. Nope ? I presume I made so many things wrong since I bought this game... (like trusting FD, like our mate Crowax just said)

Yes, you have the right to say whatever you want. Haven't claimed anything else. You are reading too much into my observation.

Why ? Because the game is supposed to be the support of player interactions.
Because it's supposed to create more diversity than "Transport X from A to B in a 15LY bubble". I'm trying to figure out why many of my friends have left the game before 1.2, came to see 1.2, then left again, then came to see 1.3 then left again. Because we're all expecting something that never came until now.

This in no way addressed the point I raised about player created missions. Please provide a couple examples of missions that would be worthwhile for the mission giver to create within the context of the current game mechanics. Refuel doesn't even count since presumably you would need to be inside a station to do this (or meet someone out there somewhere)...if you are already stranded a distress beacon system would be more logical to use.

Ok. Then, what will make a Power disappear ? And what will make emerging a new Power ?

Already answered in the quote from Michael I posted. The Powers are set up manually...but everything else is automatic (AKA the sim is doing it).

 

[Tinman]

David Braben enthusiastically told us of a game with a dynamic economy & an evolving galaxy. Any sign of that ?

Yes, all over the place.

The economy IS dynamic. There might be bugs and some don't consider it to be "dynamic enough", but that's another question.

The galaxy IS evolving. System states is changing constantly based on our actions and things like conflict zones appears based on these states. Missions are also based of the state and depending on how and what we do these results will feed back into the background sim. With Powerplay we also see how the map changes as systems are taken over or lost and the systems under the powers control changes differently depending on what power is controlling it (certain items might become legal/illegal for example). There is still plenty that can be done to improve it further and also make these changes more visible to players (in other ways that stats), but it IS evolving.

 

[nicomak]

Already answered in the quote from Michael I posted. The Powers are set up manually...but everything else is automatic (AKA the sim is doing it).

As stated by FD, the players can create a new power by helping a minor faction up to the point where it controls a large area. That can be done now without injecting anything, it takes some efforts though.
But when that "happens", you'll need to go through the devs to make it a power, then you'll have it set up. And it will work as another power. In the process, you may have to give it some more background to make it an interesting/coherent one. It's up to you to make the attempt, ant that might give you a new reason to play.

I dont think i have seen any info either ways on what exactly happens when it should collapse, if it is automated or not. But aumatic only means things happens when a set of conditions are met, and we know those conditions. So it being manual or not doesnt change much of anything. If those conditions arent met, the power wont collapse, if they do, then it might.

 

[LARY STARKEEPER]

This in no way addressed the point I raised about player created missions. Please provide a couple examples of missions that would be worthwhile for the mission giver to create within the context of the current game mechanics. Refuel doesn't even count since presumably you would need to be inside a station to do this (or meet someone out there somewhere)...if you are already stranded a distress beacon system would be more logical to use.

Assassination missions for more casual player who want revenge on a pilot.
Escort missions for traders (trade dividends are to low for a figther to be content with, but more means too high for a "traders only" convoy).
Mercenary missions (sellswords), like "come with me to fight in a war which is not yours", aka conflict zones.
Pirate missions, you want to stay clean but you need stolen goods.
Providing missions, you're busy but you have to buy/source some specific goods.

Already answered in the quote from Michael I posted. The Powers are set up manually...but everything else is automatic (AKA the sim is doing it).

So, not everything is automatic. But my "let the sim do it" is especially for community goals. I'm worried about what the game will become the day FD will stop to inject things, since they have purely delete the offline mode. It count also for the Galnet (some news are generic), but games like "Starpoint Gemini 2" have news feed automatically generated every day. Ex: "The economic state of Harma is so high that Gabriel Enterprise is now able to produce a bigger diversity of ships ! And also grants a -20% discount on all Lakon Gateway ships for 2 days" < Actually these are hand written Galnet's news, it could be automatic, then more randomly dispatched through the galaxy. Do you realise that there is billions of stars, thousands inhabited but there is only 1 ship discount every 4 months within the whole inhabited bubble ??!! This is just an example. Every systems have its own microcosmos, but there is so many systems we don't even care because nothing happen in it !!! Because every interesting things in this game are injected and FD isn't able to inject events in every systems !