Move Defensive Modules to Dedicated Slots

Currently, defensive modules compete for space with a variety of other things. Shield cell banks and hull / module reinforcement packages compete with all other optional internals, and shield boosters compete with anti-missile systems, heatsinks, and the various scanners. On paper, this seems like a good design direction; reinforcing your ship comes at the cost of flexibility. In practice though, I believe it's actually hurting the game.

The Solution:
Military slots were a step in the right direction, but didn't quite go far enough. I propose the following:


  • Bulkheads (the core armour module) now have "module bays", similar to how the SRV bay works.
    • You can only fit hull and module reinforcement packages in these slots.
    • This is THE ONLY PLACE you can fit hull and module reinforcement packages.
    • The size and number of slots available will vary, depending on how durable FDev wants a given ship to be.
  • Shield generators now have "module bays", similar to how the SRV bay works.
    • Shield boosters and shield cell banks can be fit in these slots
    • Size and class of generator decides how many slots it will have, and what class they are
    • You can only fit a module of the matching class in a given slot, similar to how sensors work
    • Larger class shield boosters provide the same boost percentages of smaller ones, but draw more power
      • The idea is to keep the relative cost of a shield booster consistent as you go up in ship sizes.
      • The lore justification would be that it takes more power to boost a larger shield.

Why this is good:
  • FDev can now more tightly control the durability of a ship as a point of balance.
  • The base stats of a ship are now relevant again, instead of only the thing mattering being its internal and utility slot count
  • A player encountering a given ship will have a pretty decent idea of how tough that ship can be. With the current system, it's really anyone's guess.
  • Players are still faced with several decisions when building their ship's defenses: "What ratio of hull-to-module protection do I want? Do I want large shields (boosters), or would I rather have the ability to rapidly replenish them more (shield cell banks)
  • Players no longer have to choose between engaging with the various in-game activities, OR fitting their ship with enough defense to handle a PvP fit attacker.
  • Cargo ships can mount a respectable defense, AND haul a lot of cargo. This allows pirating to be a more interesting activity for all parties.
  • Since defenses are more even across the various professions, this allows organic player-on-player interaction to flourish and for people to play in open more comfortably.
  • Gankers will have a much-smaller raw durability advantage when attacking unwilling victims.
  • Players looking to engage in PvP (bounty hunters patrolling a CG, for instance) wont have to "lock themselves out" of all other activities (by using all their internals for defense) just to keep up with the defense of the baddies.
  • Specializing in combat can be more about utility and endurance, instead of just raw defense. This keeps the single-fight performance difference lower, and thus the fights more fair.

The Problem I'm trying to solve:

  • Defensive modules competing for space with everything else stifles the possibility of "organic player-on-player interactions", drives people out of open, and makes balancing PvE combat extremely tricky.
    • The impact that defensive modules have on the survivability of a ship is immense. Especially when you get engineering involved, a ship with several structural reinforcement packages, shield cell banks, and shield boosters will have potentially several hundred percent the total effective health of a ship that just has upgraded bulkheads, and a shield generator. What this leads to is the following: a ship that's built specifically and exclusively just to kill another ship is WILDLY more health than one that's built to perform a variety of activities in-game. What this means is that a player that's specifically geared their ship for PvP has an enormous advantage over someone who's ship has been built to engage with the rest of the game's content. A pilot of a PvE ship, even one geared for the various PvE combat activities in the game, will need to potentially do several times as much damage as their attacker to have a chance at victory. If someone has a ship designed for non-combat-focused PvE activities, the difference becomes even more immense. A fight is completely out of the question, and even just escape is dubious.
    • A cargo ship can choose between being able to haul a respectable amount of cargo (doing the thing they actually want to do), or have an even remotely respectable amount of defense. The obvious choice is to fit cargo racks, then simply avoid risk by hauling in solo / pg.
    • A fight that is an appropriate difficulty for a general-purpose fit combat ship (with several internals dedicated to things like a fuel scoop, SRV (for scanning planetary installations), small cargo rack (for cargo mission rewards), limpet controller (for collecting materials), etc.) can be made trivial if the player instead just stack defenses.
    • Balancing a given ship becomes difficult, since things like optional internal slots and utility slots can be converted directly into raw survivability instead of just utility. The FDL is a great example of this: a lot of its strength comes from its 6 utility mounts. Those were presumably added to give the ship the ability to fit all the bounty-hunting frills like KWS, anti-missile systems, and heatsink launchers (in keeping with its luxury bounty hunter lore). In practice however, many of those slots just get used for shield boosters leaving the ship extremely durable.
    • A small general-purpose ship like the Diamondback Explorer stuffed with hull reinforcement packages can have almost as much armour as an Anaconda with military bulkheads. The range of possible durability for a given ship is immense, and potentially eliminates a lot of the character of a ship.
 
On the last live interview with Sandro I suggested consolidating the scanners into being purchase upgrades to the basic scanner which should be moved to a the Core Internal slot as it's really not a balance factor anymore now that there are so many more options being available. It never made sense to me that so few ships come with 2 Class 1 compartments, even those called "Explorers" where you know everyone using it to explore has to equip an ADS and DSS. Easiest answer would be to make scanners a purchase (in game) to the sensor array.

He blew it off as trivial and not going to happen.

No surprise

Some design decisions have always lefty me shaking my head. Maybe in the early days it might have been a balance factor, but now it just doesn't make any rational sense.
 
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On the last live interview with Sandro I suggested consolidating the scanners into being purchase upgrades to the basic scanner which should be moved to a the Core Internal slot as it's really not a balance factor anymore now that there are so many more options being available. It never made sense to me that so few ships come with 2 Class 1 compartments, even those called "Explorers" where you know everyone using it to explore has to equip an ADS and DSS. Easiest answer would be to make scanners a purchase (in game) to the sensor array.

He blew it off as trivial and not going to happen.

No surprise

Some design decisions have always lefty me shaking my head. Maybe in the early days it might have been a balance factor, but now it just doesn't make any rational sense.

It does bug me how often the sockpuppet brushes off things like this.

The amount of optional internal space that gets wasted on modules that have no right taking up any space or weight in the first place is staggering.
That on top of the optional layouts being so poorly thought through with ship purpose in mind is infuriating.

Things that make sense for taking up space as optionals:
- Cargo Racks
- Passenger Cabins
- Fuel Scoops (yup, the scoop is external, but the fuel cooling and compression equipment isn't)
- Refineries
- Fighter Hangers
- SRV Hangers
- Extra Fuel Tanks
- Shield Generator - there's an argument that this should be core

Things that have no business taking up Optional Internal Slots:
- Limpet Controllers
- Docking Computer
- Any type of Scanner

Things that would be better off elsewhere - as Utilities or in Core Module Sub-Slots
- HRPs
- MRPs
- SCBs
- Frameshift Interdictor
- AFMU
 
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It does bug me how often the sockpuppet brushes off things like this.

The amount of optional internal space that gets wasted on modules that have no right taking up any space or weight in the first place is staggering.
That on top of the optional layouts being so poorly thought through with ship purpose in mind is infuriating.

Things that make sense for taking up space as optionals:
- Cargo Racks
- Passenger Cabins
- Fuel Scoops (yup, the scoop is external, but the fuel cooling and compression equipment isn't)
- Refineries
- Fighter Hangers
- SRV Hangers
- Extra Fuel Tanks
- Shield Generator - there's an argument that this should be core

Things that have no business taking up Optional Internal Slots:
- Limpet Controllers
- Docking Computer
- Any type of Scanner

Things that would be better off elsewhere - as Utilities or in Core Module Sub-Slots
- HRPs
- MRPs
- SCBs
- Frameshift Interdictor
- AFMU

I would argue that an AFMU makes sense as an internal, since it primarily fixes other internals. Limpet controllers could makes sense as internals, if they also included storage for limpets. Otherwise, I agree.
 
I would argue that an AFMU makes sense as an internal, since it primarily fixes other internals. Limpet controllers could makes sense as internals, if they also included storage for limpets. Otherwise, I agree.

Yup, I'm kind of on the fence about the AFMU - I went for Utility because I'm not convinced it needs different sizes.
But then I've never used one, so I wouldn't know.

Limpet Controllers are software pure and simple, or maybe Hardware Cards as slots in a new core Computer module. There's no justification for them taking up Class 5 and Class 3 slots.

I feel like Limpets should be Ammunition, fired from a Limpet Launcher mounted on a Hardpoint.
The issue with that would be the small missile-like ammunition limits given their size.
Synthesis could solve that though with a more reasonable recipe or a straight refill if it was ammo.
 
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On the last live interview with Sandro I suggested consolidating the scanners into being purchase upgrades to the basic scanner which should be moved to a the Core Internal slot as it's really not a balance factor anymore now that there are so many more options being available. It never made sense to me that so few ships come with 2 Class 1 compartments, even those called "Explorers" where you know everyone using it to explore has to equip an ADS and DSS. Easiest answer would be to make scanners a purchase (in game) to the sensor array.

He blew it off as trivial and not going to happen.

No surprise

Some design decisions have always lefty me shaking my head. Maybe in the early days it might have been a balance factor, but now it just doesn't make any rational sense.

To be fair he didn't just brush it off, he said the solution they were looking at was having those consolidated into racks like the SRVs and Fighters.

The issue with combat ships completely outclassing "purpose" ships is never going to change as long as they allow us free access to module slots. Any ship that doesn't have a slot filled with a combat module is always at a disadvantage.

Since the concept of military slots came along I've always thought it might be more interesting to limit certain modules to those slots only.
 
I agree that the current range of defensive hitpoints is too great and that stat buffing modules are making the problem worse.

I'd be happy with any solution that closes the disparity in hitpoints between different loadouts to encourage more entertaining encounters than just running away when attacked.
 
I don't know why they don't just vary the utility slots and small compartments depending upon which bulkheads are purchased.

For instance military grade composite locks several of the internal modules to military only and reduces the size of some internal spaces. Lightweight subdivides a class 2 into two class 1s with max internal room at the expense of external utilites, the mirrored and reactive alter the number of utility slots and military slots...

Hence different internal and external arrangements depending upon role.
 
*A small general-purpose ship like the Diamondback Explorer stuffed with hull reinforcement packages can have almost as much armour as an Anaconda with military bulkheads. The range of possible durability for a given ship is immense, and potentially eliminates a lot of the character of a ship.

heh heh, a diamondback with bite, I like the sound of that. :cool:
 
The issue I see here is the complete lack of actual choice players would have with regards to outfitting. Currently, players can choose the ratio between cargo and survivability, but under this suggestion then all ships can have both maxed out all the time.

That being said, I do feel that HRPs should have their scaling with size altered somewhat, as currently the smaller ones are barely weaker than the large ones as well as providing the same resistance bonuses once modded, which shifts balance towards ships with large numbers of internals slightly too much. Adding size 6+ HRPs would also be nice to see, to help hull tanking along a bit more.
 
I like the idea, though I can't see a plausible way to migrate to it from what we currently have. So far Frontier have generally avoided making changes which would negatively affect existing builds, and this would be some very major changes.

The issue I see here is the complete lack of actual choice players would have with regards to outfitting. Currently, players can choose the ratio between cargo and survivability, but under this suggestion then all ships can have both maxed out all the time.
True, though what the maximum is would still vary from ship to ship - a FAS or FDL still won't be carrying much cargo this way, and a T-9 will still have no (or little) extra HRP/MRP capability and a weak base shield modifier.

It still leaves some internals for either "secondary survivability" modules or cargo - AFMUs, repair limpets, SLFs, etc - and how you max out survival.

The shield generator still takes an optional internal, so you get to choose how big - a 3D generator which can barely be boosted, or a 6A generator which comes with plenty of big slots for SCBs and boosters but exchanges far more cargo space.
 
True, though what the maximum is would still vary from ship to ship - a FAS or FDL still won't be carrying much cargo this way, and a T-9 will still have no (or little) extra HRP/MRP capability and a weak base shield modifier.

It still leaves some internals for either "secondary survivability" modules or cargo - AFMUs, repair limpets, SLFs, etc - and how you max out survival.

The shield generator still takes an optional internal, so you get to choose how big - a 3D generator which can barely be boosted, or a 6A generator which comes with plenty of big slots for SCBs and boosters but exchanges far more cargo space.

The thing is that it would turn cargo vs survivability into a single slot question, rather than a whole sliding scale. Bulkheads would be literally the only option for increasing hull capacity, while we are limited a shield generator (that then couldn't be increased with the use of SBs or SCBs). Some modules, as you pointed out, can help somewhat but they are generally secondary modules that don't have that much of a direct impact. Under this system, the only difference for me when I'm using my 'Vette for cargo vs combat would be 2 steps of shield generator and the SLF bay - effectively stripping out all potential for me to actually customise it for my own purposes. Similarly, if someone wanted to refit their freighter into a makeshift combat vessel, it would offer barely improved performance over a regular trader fit. It effectively removes player choice from the game and blanderises ship outfitting.

If anything, I'd be in favour of adding in a much greater variety of combat related internals, such as supplemental distributors, ammunition magazines, reaction wheels etc to provide an offensive alternative to the current hp stacking that the game favours rather than stripping them out. I can see the issues regarding shield boosters though, as utility slots either need a good helping of other things to provide a reasonable alternative, or they need to be refitted into a regular internal (to be honest, I'd rather if shield generators were simply rebalanced to allow ships to use multiple generators to achieve the same effect, with appropriate diminishing returns).
 
The issue I see here is the complete lack of actual choice players would have with regards to outfitting. Currently, players can choose the ratio between cargo and survivability, but under this suggestion then all ships can have both maxed out all the time.

That being said, I do feel that HRPs should have their scaling with size altered somewhat, as currently the smaller ones are barely weaker than the large ones as well as providing the same resistance bonuses once modded, which shifts balance towards ships with large numbers of internals slightly too much. Adding size 6+ HRPs would also be nice to see, to help hull tanking along a bit more.

My whole point of this was that there currently isn't much of an actual choice. The best choice is to go maximum cargo, then simply avoid risk by not playing in open. There are still plenty of outfitting choices. Instead of the non-choice of "modules to actually do what I want" and "raw survivability", players instead have to think about how to balance their defence slots. What ratio of hull to module reinforcement do you want? SBs to SCBs? Any other defensive modules FDev decides to add, like auxiliary coolant reservoirs (another suggestion of mine).
 
My whole point of this was that there currently isn't much of an actual choice. The best choice is to go maximum cargo, then simply avoid risk by not playing in open. There are still plenty of outfitting choices. Instead of the non-choice of "modules to actually do what I want" and "raw survivability", players instead have to think about how to balance their defence slots. What ratio of hull to module reinforcement do you want? SBs to SCBs? Any other defensive modules FDev decides to add, like auxiliary coolant reservoirs (another suggestion of mine).

The issue there that I see you making isn't about the loadout choice, but a combination of open murderhobo players picking on transports and the uselessly anemic NPC pirates and their faulty interdictors that would struggle to interdict Betelgeuse, let alone a maneuvering ship. Make murderhobos less of an issue (hopefully will be helped by the new C&P update, but personally I'm in favour of simply adding an "incognito mode" that removes your hollowed out radar signature and your CMDR title while active), while also giving NPC pirates some teeth, a working interdictor and the brains to use them both effectively the traders will then have to actually choose their loadouts carefully based on potential profits and the risks they are taking based on the systems' security and the value of their cargo, rather than metagaming based on the likelihood of meeting players.

Ideally, someone would want a near-warship to transport entire holds of diamonds and other valuables, while someone enjoying the routine grain deliveries in a safe region could get away with a minimal shield or even shieldless due to the low value of their cargo. Players should have to study the relative risk of their route and build an appropriately equipped ship, rather than enjoying an unassailable trader that can sail happily through hordes of would-be pirates after their of Imperial Slaves.
 
My whole point of this was that there currently isn't much of an actual choice. The best choice is to go maximum cargo, then simply avoid risk by not playing in open. There are still plenty of outfitting choices. Instead of the non-choice of "modules to actually do what I want" and "raw survivability", players instead have to think about how to balance their defence slots. What ratio of hull to module reinforcement do you want? SBs to SCBs? Any other defensive modules FDev decides to add, like auxiliary coolant reservoirs (another suggestion of mine).

So in order to address an issue that affects a small number of players and on rare occasions, you want to rework the entire outfitting system for everyone and force them to focus on combat oriented features?

Even if we ignore the issues of balancing the proposed new system and transferring ship loadouts from the current system to it, it's still not going to do anything to change the mode(s) that 99% of players choose to play in.

Overall, that's a 'No thanks' from me.
 
I'd like to play an Elite Dangerous that had this suggestion included. It'd be an interesting compromise between what we have now and what I'd do, which is to remove HRP/shield boosters/SCBs entirely....
 
So in order to address an issue that affects a small number of players and on rare occasions, you want to rework the entire outfitting system for everyone and force them to focus on combat oriented features?

Even if we ignore the issues of balancing the proposed new system and transferring ship loadouts from the current system to it, it's still not going to do anything to change the mode(s) that 99% of players choose to play in.

Overall, that's a 'No thanks' from me.

I don't see how "everyone who engages in combat, PvE or PvP" is a small number of players, or rare occasion. The issues with PvP are obvious, but ships having such a ridiculously wide range of possible health is bad for PvE, too. It makes balancing ships, and encounter difficulties challenging. An assassination mission that's appropriately difficult for someone with a "general purpose combat" build can suddenly become trivially easy if the pilot instead decides to stack nothing but defense. If FDev balances things such that combat is engaging for maxed-defense ships, then it will be overwhelming for more general builds and force players to hyper-specialize.

I get very annoyed when every balance suggestion I make is immediately countered with, "that only affects PvP, which almost nobody does, and thus shouldn't be balanced." PvE balance is very important to this game. Hell, I very rarely fight players in the first place- PvP is certainly on my mind when I make suggestions (because I want holistic balance), but PvE is my primary concern.
 
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On the last live interview with Sandro I suggested consolidating the scanners into being purchase upgrades to the basic scanner which should be moved to a the Core Internal slot as it's really not a balance factor anymore now that there are so many more options being available. It never made sense to me that so few ships come with 2 Class 1 compartments, even those called "Explorers" where you know everyone using it to explore has to equip an ADS and DSS. Easiest answer would be to make scanners a purchase (in game) to the sensor array.

He blew it off as trivial and not going to happen.

No surprise

Some design decisions have always lefty me shaking my head. Maybe in the early days it might have been a balance factor, but now it just doesn't make any rational sense.

I completely agree about the scanners. There are several other options for these too. For example allow multiple scanners to be fit in slots with enough space. It is ridiculous that large ships need to use slots 3, 4 or even 5 times the needed size of the actual scanner, just because they do not have a few size 1 slots.

I like the growing variety of modules we have, but because of this we are more and more limited by some unwieldy and unnecessary stifling implementations of certain modules, like the scanners, or the exploding multitude of limpet controllers, or a module like the docking computer.

I proposed good, simple, workable solutions for all of those in other threads... long ago as I have been warning that this would become a problem right from the start.

I do think that FDev is now realizing that at least the limpet controller system needs to be sanitized. That would be a good thing, although I do think the solution mentioned by Sandro is very much inferior to mine.
 
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I completely agree about the scanners. There are several other options for these too. For example allow multiple scanners to be fit in slots with enough space. It is ridiculous that large ships need to use slots 3, 4 or even 5 times the needed size of the actual scanner, just because they do not have a few size 1 slots.

I like the growing variety of modules we have, but because of this we are more and more limited by some unwieldy and unnecessary stifling implementations of certain modules, like the scanners, or the exploding multitude of limpet controllers, or a module like the docking computer.

I proposed good, simple, workable solutions for all of those in other threads... long ago as I have been warning that this would become a problem right from the start.

I do think that FDev is now realizing that at least the limpet controller system needs to be sanitized. That would be a good thing, although I do think the solution mentioned by Sandro is very much inferior to mine.
I'd like to see the sensor module get bays, and have all the scanners moved into those. That's for another thread, though.
 
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