MSAA vs downsampling

Hi guys,

I´m running ED with DK2, 2500k and msi970 with MSAA and all looks great
But I was wondering if downsampling is the same or basically looks like MSAA, any difference?

Thanks in advance!
 
In production rendering we double the resolution of the image and scale down with an EWA filter to get a relatively nice and much cheaper approximation effect as far as render time goes. In games they refer to this as "super sampling". The act of rendering the scene at double res and then re-rendering it on a single polygon in front of the screen at screen res.

Check this out, posted awhile back by one of the techs for Planetary Annihilation. I post this at work to help out new rendering staff understand image quality and which is most efficient.

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"Alright, "quick" anti-alias overview.

SSAA (super-sampled anti-aliasing) is the original anti-aliasing technique. In the average use case it can be best described as rendering the scene at a higher resolution and down sampling to the screen resolution, so at 2x SSAA a 800x600 game is rendered at 1600x1200 and shrunk to 800x600. This means for every displayed game pixel four points were rendered and combined.
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MSAA (multi-sample anti-aliasing) is essentially the same idea as SSAA, render multiple sample points and combine for each pixel. However 2x MSAA only renders two points per pixel instead of four points like SSAA, and only the opaque objects. Transparent objects are rendered separately and added afterwards. 4x and above render that number of points at randomized or offset positions with in each displayed pixel to try to reduce aliasing over what the classic SSAA is generally capable of. This means 4x MSAA is generally superior to 2x SSAA in reducing jagged edges on opaque object edges at a slightly reduced quality of transparencies.
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CSAA (coverage sample anit-aliasing) or similar methods take the same samples as MSAA would, but does additional work to determine how much of that sample should contribute to the final pixel.
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There are also AA methods for transparency that can be run in addition to MSAA or CSAA so that non opaque edges are filtered as well.
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There are also various adaptive anti-aliasing methods that try to find geometry edges and only enable or increase the number of samples of the anti-aliasing method along those edges.
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FXAA (fast approximate anti-aliasing), MLAA (morphological anti-aliasing), and similar anti-aliasing methods are completely different beasts. These are post process effects that take the final rendered image and apply the equivalent to a very clever Photoshop filter that slightly blurs high contrast parts of the image. MLAA was originally only available on the Sony PS3, but is now also on AMD video cards on the PC. FXAA is available on all NVidia video cards, but they've also released the code for it optimized for all consoles and even mobile devices and can be directly implemented in to any game that runs D3D or OpenGL.
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So, here's the kicker. FXAA looks great in screenshots or if nothing is moving on screen. In motion it does very little to reduce perceived aliasing. It also has a tendency to cause problems with UI elements and text when forced on via drivers. The other more traditional AA methods are not obsolete, they handle the movement of edges across the screen far better than the post process type anti-aliasing. MSAA and FXAA Used together they can create visual superior anti-aliasing with less of a performance hit than SSAA alone.
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I've seen some articles gush over Crysis's implementation of SSAA as being superior to MSAA techniques... but they're not doing anything particularly special with their SSAA, it's just their games have a lot of transparent objects and sharp edges created by shaders rather than geometry. In these cases SSAA will always win over current MSAA techniques visually. Since MSAA and even adaptive techniques are all based on geometry edges, as more games use complex shaders and transparency to create detail these techniques become less effective.
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So, if you've made it through that wall of text, I do plan on getting FXAA in to the game on all platforms that are capable of it along with MSAA or CSAA or whatever the default AA methods the platform supports. "
 
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So in regards to OP.

MSAA will work nicely on solid geo such as stations but suffer on transparencies.
This games does not have very much transparency that one should worry about aliasing. Most of it is soft gasses and the hyperjump cloud grids that fly by screen.
If this game had foliage and trees blowing in the wind, you will start to see degradation of image quality.
..so the palms at Mars High might suffer.
Generally ED is using a lot of hard edges, this is the stuff that suffers, especially with that slow panning rotation approach to station, you will get ants running along the edges. MSAA will probably be ideal as the consequences are not prevalent in many assets of ED.
 
Have all the settings been implemented yet. Been a long time since a read a Dev posting on this?

As stated above. This is an excerpt of a dev speaking about anti-aliasing while working on Planetary Annihilation. I saved this to my network for when I hire new renderers.
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This is not from ED devs.
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However.
The principles remain unchanged.
So take from this what you will. And apply them to whichever settings are found available for whichever games you are playing.
 
Sorry, I understood that, but we have had these "buttons" in game for quite a while, last time I heard the an ED dev talking about the settings not all have been implemented to there fullest if at all.
 
Funny that in Ortikon's quote they say FXAA is good for static images and bad for moving scenes, my experiences with E: D & FXAA are the exact opposite. :S

Anyway, in the end it all boils down to what you find good - are the jaggies smoothed enough and does framerate stay high enough to be enjoyable.
 
Sorry, I understood that, but we have had these "buttons" in game for quite a while, last time I heard the an ED dev talking about the settings not all have been implemented to there fullest if at all.
Ah,
Ya I would assume more is to come. Beta 3.9 added quite a bit, and I believe more will be rolled out/unocked on release.

I doubt they will use ALL of the aliasing options available. Plenty of it is unnecessary or not suited for this game. Is post-processing quality an option yet? I don't remember and I don't think it is; ie. radial blur on boosting, coming out of super cruise or hyperjump would really add to the effect; Motion blur from turning or fast head turn, I haven't seen any of that.
I especially suspect aliasing is not working to its full extent.
 
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Funny that in Ortikon's quote they say FXAA is good for static images and bad for moving scenes, my experiences with E: D & FXAA are the exact opposite. :S

Anyway, in the end it all boils down to what you find good - are the jaggies smoothed enough and does framerate stay high enough to be enjoyable.

I have noticed the same and it had perplexed me for awhile. The slow paced panning nature of the games stations tell me that it should be crawling like ants when using FXAA. Part of me feels like MSAA is not working to its full extent. It has been awhile since I have paid attention to this though, and you folks have sparked my interest and anticipation to go home. (Woo! Render settings! Cant wait! 8D )
 
I was running at 2650x1440 for a while and it is in fact awesome.. however, the hit on performance is just too drastic so I'm at MSAA and can push much better settings everywhere else. I tested this on a rig with 2xTitans so I think we will have to wait for the VR drivers from Nvidia before we can use oversampling/downsampling. I'll be first in line to turn that stuff back on though. Makes a big difference in the text for sure.
 
So is the general consensus that SMAA is more suited for moving objects?
More suited for Solid Geo.
AA in general is a method of covering up pixilation that is most noticeable on moving objects. Especially slow moving, due to the fact that the slower it moves the longer a shade hangs on one pixel before it jumps to the next. Us humans see those popping motions and when a whole screen is doing it we need tricks to reduce us noticing it. I find that good AA will fix immersion better than model detail.
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But to answer your question, SMAA is better for 'Solid' geometry, and suffers on objects whose shapes are defined by an alpha such as foliage or cloth torn using alpha. (Generally a leaf or ripped fabric is a square edged polygon that is then cut out by a texture rather than modeling all the little rough edges.)
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Note: In CG TV production we are not allowed any aliasing what-so-ever. We skim frame by frame through every shot (50-400 frames average) and reduce any form of crawling. We are able to apply different anti aliasing methods per shot, so adapting to each unique cause is a possibility as we can spend up to 3 hours working on a single shot (excluding render time). Videogames have it much harder, they cannot simply analyze the cause of aliasing per frame and fix just that problem for just that shot, it has to be an overall constant effect. Games have my sympathies when it comes to visual quality control, as they cant just hide stuff. Us TV and Movie folks get the luxury to say "This shot looks great only from this angle, every other angle looks like crap, you cant see it but the guys elbow is actually wedged inside of his chest to get that pose"
 
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How do we enable a FPS display in game? I'm keen to know my FPS with 2560x1440 SMAA Ultra.

Ortikon, what AA do you use in game with your RIFT?
 
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If you have an Nvidia card 6 series and above (although my 650Ti BOOST didn't like it, my new GTX970 laps it up so be aware you need a good card) use DSR, it's a very efficient way of downsampling. I use 25% smoothness and run Elite with all settings maxed out at 2x DSR (twice native resolution of 1080p), it looks incredible, and not a jaggie in sight. I can't stand jaggies, in this day and age it shouldn't be an issue. Also, Geforce experience has a built in fps counter.
 
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