Multicannon incendiary damage - what is it?

[FatFreddysCoat]

It says “damage mostly thermal” but what are the figures?

Shields have a 40% resistance to kinetic so I’m trying to work out whether, say, a full MC Krait with Autoloader would get through shields and hull quicker than an incendiary modded loadout would.

I assume the incendiary MC’s would get through shields quicker but hull slower as the kinetic damage output of the MC would be lower, and I also assume the autoloader modded MC’s would do the opposite and get through the shields slower but the hull quicker, but I have never seen any figures to be able to work out which way round is overall better.

I’m angling towards incendiary with a corrosive, which would offset the lower kinetic damage, but just wanted to put it out there out of curiosity.

 

[kofeyh]

It says “damage mostly thermal” but what are the figures?

Shields have a 40% resistance to kinetic so I’m trying to work out whether, say, a full MC Krait with Autoloader would get through shields and hull quicker than an incendiary modded loadout would.

I assume the incendiary MC’s would get through shields quicker but hull slower as the kinetic damage output of the MC would be lower, and I also assume the autoloader modded MC’s would do the opposite and get through the shields slower but the hull quicker, but I have never seen any figures to be able to work out which way round is overall better.

I’m angling towards incendiary with a corrosive, which would offset the lower kinetic damage, but just wanted to put it out there out of curiosity.

It takes a percentage of kinetic and converts to thermal, it's an on-hit effect. It's not well documented because Frontier detest documenting anything. Corrosive is essentially a 'proc' as it will cause successive damage to be amplified for a set time (believe it's around 4 seconds).

A couple thermal and the rest autoloader is a nice mix. Corrosive can help? But you are going to want to be able to get good time on target otherwise the 'proc' will slip off so you'll need to keep reapplying it. I tend to preference autoloader over corrosive because the extended runtime tends to narrow any gap creative by corrosive.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

Also worth reminding that corrosive doesn’t stack, so only put it on one MC.

 

[Aashenfox]

It is widely believed that incendiary MC rounds are 100% thermal and the tooltip is a red herring. Both main outfitting sites (coriolis and ED Shipyard) use 100% thermal value.

 

[FatFreddysCoat]

It is widely believed that incendiary MC rounds are 100% thermal and the tooltip is a red herring. Both main outfitting sites (coriolis and ED Shipyard) use 100% thermal value.

If I go to Edshipyard and input a mc with incendiary it still shows 100% kinetic damage in the wpn section, so I think it’s off. Haven’t checked Coriolis yet.

 

[Aashenfox]

That's a new oversight in the 3.0 version of edsh I would suggest. I'm prepared to be wrong but I have believed for the longest time that they are 100% thermal. Would be nice to get a confirmation cos the tool tip is at best vague, and at worst totally inaccurate.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

An incendiary multicannon is basically a pulse laser with slightly different performance stats, an ammo limit, and ridiculous heat generation. I've used them quite a bit in the past, but I think I'd just take a pulse laser instead nowadays.

I've found overcharged autoloader to be perfectly sufficient for NPC shields - but if you have a hardpoint to spare, a feedback cascade rail will be far more effective against the few ships with enough shields to be worth worrying about than any difference between autoloader and incendiary.

 

[Ashnak]

Since both Aashenfox and Ian are here, I'll try and ask a more specific question:

I have a Sidewinder. Equipped it with a couple of Enforcer cannon. They're currently modded for Short Range Blaster, one corrosive, one incendiary. According to Inara, short range gives me a tiny bit more damage and avoids the clip size penalty of OC. With the agility of a Sidey and the low shot speed, the reduced range shouldn't bother me.

My question is now, though, in the light of this discussion, should I swap the incendiary for an auto loader? And second question - does corrosive have any penalty against shields (besides the ammo reduction), i.e. is it worth saving the corrosive ammo for when the shields are gone, or is it more effective to just spray both barrels simultaneously?

 

[Aashenfox]

Since both Aashenfox and Ian are here, I'll try and ask a more specific question:

I have a Sidewinder. Equipped it with a couple of Enforcer cannon. They're currently modded for Short Range Blaster, one corrosive, one incendiary. According to Inara, short range gives me a tiny bit more damage and avoids the clip size penalty of OC. With the agility of a Sidey and the low shot speed, the reduced range shouldn't bother me.

My question is now, though, in the light of this discussion, should I swap the incendiary for an auto loader? And second question - does corrosive have any penalty against shields (besides the ammo reduction), i.e. is it worth saving the corrosive ammo for when the shields are gone, or is it more effective to just spray both barrels simultaneously?

Ian and I disagree on this one, although probably only slightly. I feel that an overcharged incendiary multicannon is worth more thermal dps in the typical engagement than a G5 efficient beam (let alone a pulse), IF the generally held belief that they put out 100% thermal is accurate. This is exclusively against pve targets though, and I have two reasons for saying it....1) An efficient beam (or any laser) has bad falloff at 600m and NPCs aren't THAT evasive (to be able to dodge MC rounds at 1000m, where laser fall off really starts to show), and 2) I prefer incendiary to autoloader against NPC shields simply because NPC shields are weak to thermal. An overcharged incendiary multicannon puts out around 25% more dps than a g5 efficient beam at 600m, and this difference in overall dps increases rapidly with engagement distance. Incendiary seem to unjustly have a bad name on this forum.

I like your loadout choice very much, only I would have gone overcharged on both, it's similar to what I'd do. On my dakka builds I always use more than 1 incendiary instead of lasers and I always fire all guns all the time, regardless hull or shield, which is why I have a good 50-50 mix of damage type in my typical alpha.

My typical corvette dakka loadout is 2 huge overcharged MCs, both autoloader, 2 medium corrosive on the sides (because they are left/right hemisphere specific, if I'm rolling to avoid corvette PAs, I can still hit with one of the corrosives, whichever side I'm on, keeping up the all important debuff), 1 large overcharged incendiary MC, and either 2 more small overcharged incendiary MCs, or my personal preference (you need to be able to shoot to make it work), 2 feedback railguns.

On the courier, which is more comparable to your loadout, I also use 1 corrosive and 1 incendiary, with a feedback rail under the belly. Again the MCs fire together.

Hope it helps.

Of course lasers do have the advantage of no reload and no ammo.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Yes, I think we probably only slightly disagree in this case.

With SRB rather than Overcharged, the excessive heat generation of incendiary isn't so big an issue.

I tend to go long-range rather than efficient on laser weapons - the falloff is way too big a deal for me otherwise ... but if you're getting close enough to use a SRB multi anyway, it's possible that an efficient pulse could work. With the tiny distributor of a Sidey, DPE of a pulse rather than DPS of a beam would be my preference - especially if you're going enhanced drives and therefore going to be very tight on the power plant too!

I think in this case it's best to try both autoloader and incendiary - swapping special effects on an existing mod is pretty cheap - and see which works better for you.

Alternatively, if you're getting up that close, what about frag cannons instead of multis? I don't use them much myself so can't really comment, but corrosive+incendiary frag might be an interesting combination.

 

[Aashenfox]

Yes, I think we probably only slightly disagree in this case.

With SRB rather than Overcharged, the excessive heat generation of incendiary isn't so big an issue.

I tend to go long-range rather than efficient on laser weapons - the falloff is way too big a deal for me otherwise ... but if you're getting close enough to use a SRB multi anyway, it's possible that an efficient pulse could work. With the tiny distributor of a Sidey, DPE of a pulse rather than DPS of a beam would be my preference - especially if you're going enhanced drives and therefore going to be very tight on the power plant too!

I think in this case it's best to try both autoloader and incendiary - swapping special effects on an existing mod is pretty cheap - and see which works better for you.

Alternatively, if you're getting up that close, what about frag cannons instead of multis? I don't use them much myself so can't really comment, but corrosive+incendiary frag might be an interesting combination.

As you probably remember, I too advocate even only G3 long range over G5 efficient, but the truth is to make it work you have to be a good pip fiddler (for beams anyway) AND go full thermal vent (but that's the best beam mod anyway, so no bother). I also agree re: beam vs pulse for sidey, it's not a beam boat, but I was comparing dps, as you clarified yourself, dpe is also important on the sidey. I think the sidey is well suited to dakka, even overcharged, again for reasons of dpe.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

This is another issue with th engineers. You simply can't figure out what stuff does. Until you trial and error and waste a huge amount of time for nothing and unconclusive results.

 

[Ashnak]

Thanks to both of you.

And Ian's suggestion about the Frags has got fiddling in Coriolis again. Going for my (currently) favourite frag mod of Rapid Fire/Screening Shell, the frags could put out more than twice the sustained damage than the Enforcers, and the single shot damage is just amazing. The only problem is that I'd need to land all pellets on the target, which means to keep the engagement below maybe 200 meters. Tricky, but interesting.
Downside is of course the ammo.

Lasers - apart from the efficient thermal vent beams, I simply don't like them. And for me on a Sidey, they use too much power. I'm no good at pip fiddling - that Sidey even is shieldless, so I don't have to worry about pips. 0-4-2 and go for it.

 

[Aashenfox]

Thanks to both of you.

And Ian's suggestion about the Frags has got fiddling in Coriolis again. Going for my (currently) favourite frag mod of Rapid Fire/Screening Shell, the frags could put out more than twice the sustained damage than the Enforcers, and the single shot damage is just amazing. The only problem is that I'd need to land all pellets on the target, which means to keep the engagement below maybe 200 meters. Tricky, but interesting.
Downside is of course the ammo.

Lasers - apart from the efficient thermal vent beams, I simply don't like them. And for me on a Sidey, they use too much power. I'm no good at pip fiddling - that Sidey even is shieldless, so I don't have to worry about pips. 0-4-2 and go for it.

Hull tank sidey? Love it. I even have a build. Pair of sturdy feedback railguns would be my choice. If anything pitty - pats you with sustained fire you'll be saying goodbye to your guns first, at least this was my experience with a hull dbx. Had to go sturdy and then it was fine.

 

[Pville_Piper]

This is another issue with th engineers. You simply can't figure out what stuff does. Until you trial and error and waste a huge amount of time for nothing and unconclusive results.

My biggest issue with the new engineering is that if you decide that you don't like the way it's engineered and have to redo it you've wasted a ton of time and mats. I also hate the fact that when you go to engineer something you don't have the current stats and the improved stats available. This would help considerably when choosing the desired upgrade or special effect and help improve the chances that you won't pick something that you end up changing because it just doesn't work. Most of the stats are quite hard to work out because you just don't have the information on them.

 

[Red Anders]

Patch notes that I don't have time to look for and/or a discussion on here around changes to engineered weapons should confirm this; although the thermal damage was originally an unspecified percentage of the total, it was changed in a later update and is now 100%. The text just doesn't reflect that change.

 

[philngraves]

With a Krait, running the 45 dps fixed beam fighter and swapping both mediums to G1 Long range beams and all auto loader OC multis on the larges, you can chew through anything with frightening brutality.

G1 Long range beams negate the falloff damage entirely and, combined with the fighter, can peel through those duracell python SCB jackholes just as easily as anything else. Very balanced loadout for any PvE content save the threat 5+ missions.

Rapid charge KWS on the same firegroup as the beams also makes things more efficient.

 

[Flin]

The Engineers should have worked like sophisticated sports car engineering and tuning.

For now, you have to accept that you have to use third-party sites like Coriolis.

 

[Truesilver]

In its first inception (Beta 2.1 and Live 2.1) the incendiary special increased the damage per multi-cannon bullet or frag-cannon slug to 120% of regular and changed the composition of that damage to 100% thermal plus 20% kinetic. This is the reason for the superseded legacy wording about partial change.

The above damage boost was consider OP, particularly when combined with overcharging or double-shot, and in 2.2 was nerfed via the 20% kinetic component being removed, leaving the 100% thermal alone.

By reason of the baked-in 5% rate of fire penalty, applying the incendiary special reduces DPS by 5%, in effect meaning that the special changes 100% kinetic DPS to 95% thermal DPS. All of the damage actually done is thermal, though.

In summary:

Vanilla multi = 100% kinetic
2.1 incendiary multi = 120% damage, being 100% thermal + 20% kinetic
Current incendiary multi = 100% thermal but subject to 5% RoF reduction

P.S. Frontier please update your RNGineering fluff wordings, which also include all sorts of things like reductions that no longer even exist, TY

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

My biggest issue with the new engineering is that if you decide that you don't like the way it's engineered and have to redo it you've wasted a ton of time and mats. I also hate the fact that when you go to engineer something you don't have the current stats and the improved stats available. This would help considerably when choosing the desired upgrade or special effect and help improve the chances that you won't pick something that you end up changing because it just doesn't work. Most of the stats are quite hard to work out because you just don't have the information on them.

It's a pain in the rear.