My idea how to eliviate combat loging in open.

[shambles1980]

This is not a discussion about combat logging vs grieving.
This is not asking why would you do it.
This is my idea about how to Reduce it in open.
It is not a debate about morals, not a discussion about the rules, not trying to define what griefing is.

So there we go. just remember that..

As Combat logging is an exploit and the devs dont seem to know how to punish it.. (its been over a year since they said they would do something but they dont know what yet)
here is my idea:

The server simply monitors for disconnections during combat. (open play only) If it detects one of the clients disconnected during combat. that client is sent to solo mode.
"open mode is grayed out and cannot be selected"
There is a new button that pops up and this says:
"Appeal"
You click that and it automatically approves your appeal and you can go back in to open.
The server keeps count of how many times you have clicked "appeal" In a week. if you have made more than x amounts of appeals in a week, the next time you click on appeal The appeal automatically fails.
There is no way to over rule this. its final and that is that.
you will be unable to join open for a week.
There should also be 2 other appeal counters a monthly and a yearly one.
People who know they can log out x times per week will eventually get caught out by the monthly timer. and if not that then the yearly timer will catch them..

This only helps alleviate cl in open. These people will probably still CL in solo vs npc's but fixing that is not something i have thought about.

this fix can only be applied to open.

I do hope that it gets implemented in some form or another.

If you have terrible terrible internet. and it happens to turn off every single time you eneter combat. then you probably would be better off in solo or the mobius group.
(not trying to be an asp or anything, but your bad internet should not make every one else suffer)


PLEASE ALSO READ POST #4

 

[AJW]

No comment for the moment on whether this is a good idea, but I do have a practical question - how is the software going to determine if a player is in combat?

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

The devs do know how to fix it but they chose not to: Put a 120 second timer on any ship in combat, regardless of how it logs out. They chose to try and compromise with a 15 second timer that's easily bypassed because they were afraid of the negativity that would result.

 

[shambles1980]

The devs do know how to fix it but they chose not to: Put a 120 second timer on any ship in combat, regardless of how it logs out. They chose to try and compromise with a 15 second timer that's easily bypassed because they were afraid of the negativity that would result.

they cant force a 120 second timer, because combat logging "actuall combat logging"
is when some one ctrl alt + delete then ends task on the game so they never see the log out menu.
or they just turn off the pc.
or unplug the modem..

And they cant force any 1 to stay in a p2p instance if they combat log, because it is p2p and there is no real server to take over for the person that left.

No comment for the moment on whether this is a good idea, but I do have a practical question - how is the software going to determine if a player is in combat?

As for knowing when they are in combat.
The server we have now as it is, has to know when you are in combat...
You interdict any one you get a fine. the server has to know that or the fine couldn't stand.
(combat started)

You shoot some one you get a bounty (again the server has to know that)
(combat in progress)

and if you kill some one you either get a bounty paid to you or placed against you (again the server has to know that)
(combat ended #1)

So 99% of the things it has to know It already knows.
I can't tell you 100% for sure, if it knows when some one wakes out of a combat area or not (although i suspect it does)
The reason i suspect it does is:
if im in a combat zone, the second i wake out of there then i am no longer fighting for the faction i chose to fight for.

so it has to know i waked out of the combat "arena"
(combat ended #2)


and of course you have a 3rd combat end method of using the exit game menu and waiting the 15 seconds,
(combat ended #3)

So all the foundation is there.

if a player disconnected before combat ended state 1, 2 or 3. after it detected (combat started) or (combat in progress)
It would be a combat log.
And that's all it has to worry about.

the leeway is the appeal button. and that is automated. no staff has to look at the appeals. and no staff can over rule it. it is final.

 

[Jerakeen]

The server simply monitors for disconnections during combat. (open play only) If it detects one of the clients disconnected during combat. that client is sent to solo mode.
"open mode is grayed out and cannot be selected"
There is a new button that pops up and this says:
"Appeal"

I can see how that could work, however the problem is differentiating between combat loggers and those whose game has frozen. I've never combat logged (mainly because I never play in open) but I've had to kill the ED process a lot recently because of the game freezing when killing Anacondas in HiRES. To the server I'm guessing that the two things are indistinguishable.

 

[FliesWithEyesClosed]

I can see how that could work, however the problem is differentiating between combat loggers and those whose game has frozen. I've never combat logged (mainly because I never play in open) but I've had to kill the ED process a lot recently because of the game freezing when killing Anacondas in HiRES. To the server I'm guessing that the two things are indistinguishable.

Its not a problem to differentiate between a habitual combat logger and someone whos game has frozen up. Maybe if they do it after just the first offense yah its a problem, but they should wait a few times to see if there is a pattern. Like have you read those articles about how games have come up with ways that lets "leaver" players match up with other "leaver" players? They know that people are leavers because they track player statistics and those kinds of "leaver" players will show something like 10 matches played, 5 "disconnects" and 5 wins. Versus someone with a genuine connection problem which would probably show 10 matches played, 4 disconnects, 2 wins and 4 losses. People leave matches or combat log usually because they dont want to lose...but put them in a situation where they can win and they wont leave. Put in software or tools to track their win/loss/leave/disconnect statistics and it will be pretty easy to see who is a leaver/logger and who has internet problems,

 

[AJW]

...

As for knowing when they are in combat.
The server we have now as it is, has to know when you are in combat...
You interdict any one you get a fine. the server has to know that or the fine couldn't stand.
(combat started)

You shoot some one you get a bounty (again the server has to know that)
(combat in progress)

and if you kill some one you either get a bounty paid to you or placed against you (again the server has to know that)
(combat ended #1)

So 99% of the things it has to know It already knows.
I can't tell you 100% for sure, if it knows when some one wakes out of a combat area or not (although i suspect it does)
The reason i suspect it does is:
if im in a combat zone, the second i wake out of there then i am no longer fighting for the faction i chose to fight for.

so it has to know i waked out of the combat "arena"
(combat ended #2)

So all the foundation is there.

if a player disconnected before combat ended state 1 or 2
It would be a combat log. or And thats all it has to worry about after it detected (combat started)

the leeway is the appeal button. and that is automated. no staff has to look at the appeals. and no staff can over rule it. it is final.

The developers have made it clear that 'waking out' of a combat situation is a legitimate gameplay tactic. And I don't think your narrow definition of 'combat' would cover the situations some people seem to repeatedly complain about - that when they carry out an aggressive act (or even just make their intentions clear through chat), their intended target logs out.

 

[shambles1980]

The developers have made it clear that 'waking out' of a combat situation is a legitimate gameplay tactic. And I don't think your narrow definition of 'combat' would cover the situations some people seem to repeatedly complain about - that when they carry out an aggressive act (or even just make their intentions clear through chat), their intended target logs out.

its pretty straight forward..

as stated by the devs. combat starts at interdiction.
this can be detected..

combat ends at destruction. Or when you wake out of the area..
these 2 states can be detected.

if some one disconnects before either one of those 2 end states is detected. After interdiction state is detected.
then its a combat log.. it really is that simple.
(a legitimate exit through menu and waiting the 15 seconds counter is a 3rd allowed end state)

any one arguing otherwise really needs to check what the devs said.
(also im not sure where you see me saying that waking out = combat log)

I can see how that could work, however the problem is differentiating between combat loggers and those whose game has frozen. I've never combat logged (mainly because I never play in open) but I've had to kill the ED process a lot recently because of the game freezing when killing Anacondas in HiRES. To the server I'm guessing that the two things are indistinguishable.

This is why i added the part about the appeal button and giving you x logs per week. that will always be auto approved.

(even my game is not 100% stable. never had a crash in combat yet mind you. but i have to assume that it can happen. however every crash i ever had the game asked me to tell them what happened. i presume it does not do this on an end task, so could be possible to tell the difference.)

Also This is Only meant as an option for open mode..
the people with genuine issues will be in groups or solo already.
And others who have genuine issues but are still in open would be given incentive to fix the issue. or think about playing in a group for a while.

 

[Thetele]

I can see how that could work, however the problem is differentiating between combat loggers and those whose game has frozen. I've never combat logged (mainly because I never play in open) but I've had to kill the ED process a lot recently because of the game freezing when killing Anacondas in HiRES. To the server I'm guessing that the two things are indistinguishable.

If the game freeze you send crash report. Combat logger won´t do it.

 

[TomP]

It's "alleviate".

 

[Mohrgan]

its pretty straight forward..

as stated by the devs. combat starts at interdiction.
this can be detected..

combat ends at destruction. Or when you wake out of the area..
these 2 states can be detected.

if some one disconnects before either one of those 2 end states is detected. After interdiction state is detected.
then its a combat log.. it really is that simple.
(a legitimate exit through menu and waiting the 15 seconds counter is a 3rd allowed end state)

any one arguing otherwise really needs to check what the devs said.
(also im not sure where you see me saying that waking out = combat log)

You mean 'if someone combat logs', not 'if someone disconnects', right? Your new plan envisions the retention of the 15 second solution?

 

[shambles1980]

i forgot to add the 15 second counter to the 4th post, (my second post) but yes if they combat log.
should be pretty covered now though..

I will add it to the 4th post now.

p.s i know its alleviate lol i got it right in the post just messed up on the title.

 

[AJW]

(also im not sure where you see me saying that waking out = combat log)

Sorry - misread your post.

As for your proposal, combat can start without interdiction, surely?

 

[shambles1980]

not according to the devs.. but again this isnt a discussion about the rules..

Unless you mean you are in open space and not SC..
Thats when you take (combat in progress) state as your starting point. "that was mentioned in my 2nd post" (post #4)

Same thing though. combat isnt under way untill fired upon and interdiction counts as fired upon.

(that is how the devs have it described at least)

 

[nicemoreoften]

>power goes out
>can't play open
> 1 wk/more support response time on avg
yeah no

 

[Jockey79]

Sorry - misread your post.

As for your proposal, combat can start without interdiction, surely?

Yup, Nav and any RES - if someone is in one of those and gets a random person join that instance, who then starts shooting.

But either way, the game has to flag up who / where damage is coming from, so it knows when you are in/out of combat.

 

[Mohrgan]

Sorry - misread your post.

As for your proposal, combat can start without interdiction, surely?

Combat starts when weapons fire lands. The FSDI is considered a weapon. So by my understanding, once the tether is hooked, you are in combat, or when in regular space someone lands a hit. I am beginning to consider certain scans as acts of aggression, but I haven't worked out how that interacts with the final 'in combat' state. Especially with an automated system, the 'in combat' state has to be rigidly defined.

 

[shambles1980]

>power goes out
>can't play open
> 1 wk/more support response time on avg
yeah no

>power goes out
>whilst in combat
>12 times in a week

who are you trying to kid lol.

 

[Jockey79]

.... I am beginning to consider certain scans as acts of aggression, but I haven't worked out how that interacts with the final 'in combat' state. ....

Well, a scan is not "combat".

Even today, some police cars have ANPR systems that scan every plate that passes in front of the police car - it may be a breach of privacy, but it's not the same as them shooting at you

 

[Cmdr Mackara]

How do you determine who combat logs? As the instance has to be hosted on one players IP or the other, how do you know who logged - couldn't a player increase the security on their hosted connection and effectively kick out the other player (and thus make it look like they logged?). If there were penalties on the other side for this you think people wouldn't? There are plenty of people who blockade starting worlds and interdict sidewinders who don't do it for the thrill of competitive PvP and I'd bet a proportion of these would try to game the system to cause issues for others if they could.

There is also a huge issue with the stability of the connections, for example see the thread here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=200983 with 60 pages of people discussing transaction server errors which range in frequency from every five minutes to once every few hours. These seem to drop at times of higher volumes of traffic going back and forth; such as POI on planets and accessing bulletin boards. I wouldn't be surprised if player interaction was another form of this.

Until issues like this can be resolved, I think any arbitrary solution such as suggested would be flawed.

Don't get e wrong I think combat logging is very bad form and it is quite right to be considered an exploit. I would tend to look to go the other way and reward people for playing clean - redctions in insurance payments for those attacked who are clean (so there is less incentive to use any means necessary to survive); through to bonus PP point multipliers / bounties for those that have only logged off in space stations for a week or so (just examples of potential 'pull' factors; they've obviously need balancing and tweaking and making sure that they didn't create unintended consequences elsewhere).