PvP My issue with PVP...

[Sweet&Dandy]

I am currently hauling cargo to the community goal system and have been interdicted twice by the same commander in a FDL. The first time I was flying a mostly A rated Cutter with reinforced shields, three or four shield boosters and two shields cell banks. The second time was in an A rated Python, fairly formidable , though obviously less capable than the Cutter.

Both times I would've liked to have engaged, but the second they start firing, my shields start going down and the computer starts warning me about disruptions to targeting (I think), heat this and danger that!
I know that my Cutter in particular can take a beating, even when functioning primarily as a cargo vessel, but I have simply no idea what kind of voodoo these PVPers are flying with, as engineered weapons aren't somethIng im overly familiar with as I mostly engineer core modules.

The times when I get interdicted by another commander it seems you are almost always at a sIgnificant disadvantage, as you find yourself with a trading configured shiploadout against a combat designed vessel. Even then I'd maybe fancy my chances against the most severe NPC in my engIneered Cutter but against these magician commanders I just don't know!

I'm half tempted to go back into the system wIth no cargo and try to find them, just to see what they are capable of, but I suspect my Cutter would be no match for the tech they are carrying!

It seems a shame from both our perspectives that I am not willing to risk my ship, but i see no advantage to be had by engaging when I can simply boost and jump away.

Is PVP as unbalanced as I suspect? Am I really no safer attending these community events in a Cutter because of these weapon side effects? I'm a decent pilot in a decent ship but he seemed to be scrambling my systems within seconds of engaging!

I'm all for PVP in theory, but if encounters are so completely one sided, you can see why so many people would choose to either run or fly in solo.

 

[Powderpanic]

I am currently hauling cargo to the community goal system and have been interdicted twice by the same commander in a FDL. The first time I was flying a mostly A rated Cutter with reinforced shields, three or four shield boosters and two shields cell banks. The second time was in an A rated Python, fairly formidable , though obviously less capable than the Cutter.

Both times I would've liked to have engaged, but the second they start firing, my shields start going down and the computer starts warning me about disruptions to targeting (I think), heat this and danger that!
I know that my Cutter in particular can take a beating, even when functioning primarily as a cargo vessel, but I have simply no idea what kind of voodoo these PVPers are flying with, as engineered weapons aren't somethIng im overly familiar with as I mostly engineer core modules.

The times when I get interdicted by another commander it seems you are almost always at a sIgnificant disadvantage, as you find yourself with a trading configured shiploadout against a combat designed vessel. Even then I'd maybe fancy my chances against the most severe NPC in my engIneered Cutter but against these magician commanders I just don't know!

I'm half tempted to go back into the system wIth no cargo and try to find them, just to see what they are capable of, but I suspect my Cutter would be no match for the tech they are carrying!

It seems a shame from both our perspectives that I am not willing to risk my ship, but i see no advantage to be had by engaging when I can simply boost and jump away.

Is PVP as unbalanced as I suspect? Am I really no safer attending these community events in a Cutter because of these weapon side effects? I'm a decent pilot in a decent ship but he seemed to be scrambling my systems within seconds of engaging!

I'm all for PVP in theory, but if encounters are so completely one sided, you can see why so many people would choose to either run or fly in solo.

How can PVP be unbalanced? Think about it?

You have exactly the same abilities in game, as every other player out there.

You are referring to lack of knowledge

 

[StiTch]

Community goals are one of the main hotspots; it attracts many of the more skilled and engineered pilots looking for a ruck. As such it should be treated as one of the most risky systems you can be in, and is not a great place to get acquainted with Open style play if you aren't engineered properly yourself.

To get on par with them in some form you'll need to engineer to the max, but I'd honestly wait for the engineering update unless you wanna try roll some god rolls before then. It'll become generally easier for you to be on level footing, and then you can concentrate on flight technique.

If you want to practise your skillz before then please feel free to add myself, CMDR StiTch! on PC, or look up the GCI. There's usually a wealth of players willing to give loadout assistance and in-game practice.

How can PVP be unbalanced? Think about it?

You have exactly the same abilities in game, as every other player out there.

You are referring to lack of knowledge

Come now my darling, I know 9.5/10 people (totally legit statistic, much to the detriment of our half a person at the end) cannot handle being looked at funny and feel the need to turn it into melodrama, but I believe OP is looking for something constructive.

Also, I'd argue that imbalance is the soul of engineering, and that as OP's opponents were well engineered and OP was not, that it was very much imbalanced. It wouldn't be exclusive to PvP if NPCs could wield slightly reasonable engineering themselves, but alas...neutership.

 

[Stigbob]

CG's engineers and popular systems like shinrata are the hotspots.

You could follow the example of gankers and only enter open in a fully engineered ship with a comfortable amount of rebuy cash, but that's a bit lame.

 

[StiTch]

CG's engineers and popular systems like shinrata are the hotspots.

You could follow the example of gankers and only enter open in a fully engineered ship with a comfortable amount of rebuy cash, but that's a bit lame.

Many PvPers are aware there's a..."lesser breed" of murderers, that cannot handle any actual risk and are prone to CLing and cheating themselves. I wonder how many do avoid engineering in Open - from my experience, getting my ships engineered is one of the few times I'm at risk, as if I am engineering new shields/weapons etc. I can't guarantee I'll be outfitted how I want in case of interdiction.

There's been a couple of times I've sheepishly boosted off and dropped a message to my interdictor saying "sorry mate not now, I can't deploy even half these weapons without losing power" or "we'll go for the lols but be warned I'm sporting 7 unengineered rails..."

Yeah, had some "interesting" fights getting engineered.

 

[Brrokk]

To OP: your response is proper RP and nothing to feel bad about. Why would a cargo-carrying ship stop to fight a warship when it has the capability to run? If you wanted a fight, you wouldn't be carrying hundreds of tons of dead-weight "tasty cargo".

 

[Sweet&Dandy]

How can PVP be unbalanced? Think about it?

You have exactly the same abilities in game, as every other player out there.

You are referring to lack of knowledge

Partly a lack of knowledge (I'm my case regarding secondary effects of weapons) but imbalanced in terms of actual encounters taking place... if I'm in trade mode and someone comes at me with weapons that are going to melt me in seconds, the only PVP that takes place is them firing and me running - I don't imagine that is in either of our best interests?

 

[Stigbob]

Many PvPers are aware there's a..."lesser breed" of murderers, that cannot handle any actual risk and are prone to CLing and cheating themselves. I wonder how many do avoid engineering in Open - from my experience, getting my ships engineered is one of the few times I'm at risk, as if I am engineering new shields/weapons etc. I can't guarantee I'll be outfitted how I want in case of interdiction.

There's been a couple of times I've sheepishly boosted off and dropped a message to my interdictor saying "sorry mate not now, I can't deploy even half these weapons without losing power" or "we'll go for the lols but be warned I'm sporting 7 unengineered rails..."

Yeah, had some "interesting" fights getting engineered.

Exactly, that's why I specified gankers instead of tarring all pro PVP players with the same brush.

 

[d8veh]

It's not PvP that's unbalanced, it's the activities that you do. If you're trading for a CG and you come up against a typical gankers combat ship, you have no chance in a fight, so you have to optimise your ship for surviving and escaping rather than fighting. You need to think about balancing the profits you'll make against the risk of losing your ship and cargo too.

 

[Torashuu]

It's not PvP that's unbalanced, it's the activities that you do. If you're trading for a CG and you come up against a typical gankers combat ship, you have no chance in a fight, so you have to optimise your ship for surviving and escaping rather than fighting. You need to think about balancing the profits you'll make against the risk of losing your ship and cargo too.

Or just use the game mode appropriate for your desired game experience at that time. Both are valid options.

 

[Sweet&Dandy]

It's not PvP that's unbalanced, it's the activities that you do. If you're trading for a CG and you come up against a typical gankers combat ship, you have no chance in a fight, so you have to optimise your ship for surviving and escaping rather than fighting. You need to think about balancing the profits you'll make against the risk of losing your ship and cargo too.

That's my point- it's not a particularly rich pvp experience for either party is it?

 

[StiTch]

Exactly, that's why I specified gankers instead of tarring all pro PVP players with the same brush.

I know bud, I know...no fingers being pointed here today.

That's my point- it's not a particularly rich pvp experience for either party is it?

Well that in itself isn't questionable. Why should trade vessels be capable of standing toe-to-toe with born and bred warships? If every ship had to be good at every role regardless of outfitting choice this game would have less flavour to it than a pot noodle.

The better question is why there is nothing more meaningful to do than shooting traders at a CG. If PowerPlay facilitated PvP by having an aspect unaffected by PG/Solo for example, you can start to look at a meaningful relationship between trader defense ability, offensive ability, and reason to murder - or employ whatever other tactic helps you achieve your end.

As it stands if you wanna do a CG it's easy to be nigh on indestructible, especially in an iCutter. If you want to shoot back at them, don't do it from a trade ship. If nothing else it's certainly a simple system in this incarnation

 

[Ian Doncaster]

That's my point- it's not a particularly rich pvp experience for either party is it?

Indeed not. Back in the original release there was a sizable gap between a combat-fit ship and anything else. Since then power creep has let the combat-fit ship get tens of times more powerful. The trade ship has benefited in being able to survive to run away more easily too, of course. But if everyone took advantage of the tools and advice available basically no-one would ever die of any cause.

There's probably nothing which can be done now - it would require either a fundamental redesign of outfitting to either give a relatively narrow total range of ship capabilities or to make all ships inherently multi-role so carrying cargo had limited effect on combat capability - or, it would require a significant increase in trader endurance (but not firepower) combined with easy ways for traders to obtain PvP-grade help combined with harder or more costly escapes so that it can become a protect/destroy the freighter battle with more balanced odds and the freighter both has the resilience and incentive to stick it out.

Maybe it can go on the "unrealistic hopes for Elite V" list.

 

[Sweet&Dandy]

Indeed not. Back in the original release there was a sizable gap between a combat-fit ship and anything else. Since then power creep has let the combat-fit ship get tens of times more powerful. The trade ship has benefited in being able to survive to run away more easily too, of course. But if everyone took advantage of the tools and advice available basically no-one would ever die of any cause.

There's probably nothing which can be done now - it would require either a fundamental redesign of outfitting to either give a relatively narrow total range of ship capabilities or to make all ships inherently multi-role so carrying cargo had limited effect on combat capability - or, it would require a significant increase in trader endurance (but not firepower) combined with easy ways for traders to obtain PvP-grade help combined with harder or more costly escapes so that it can become a protect/destroy the freighter battle with more balanced odds and the freighter both has the resilience and incentive to stick it out.

Maybe it can go on the "unrealistic hopes for Elite V" list.

I haven't tried the Beta myself but it would spice things up if us traders were more heavily protected upon entering the system. Hiring NPC convoys to "escort" us would certainly level the playing field and make us less likely to run!

 

[Han_Zen]

To OP: your response is proper RP and nothing to feel bad about. Why would a cargo-carrying ship stop to fight a warship when it has the capability to run? If you wanted a fight, you wouldn't be carrying hundreds of tons of dead-weight "tasty cargo".

The problem is that the Cutter is the most formidable war ship in the game. That does not matter, because build > ship in ED. The modifiers are extreme for everything. In ED a cargo carrying war ship doesn't stand up well against an armored party boat.

The only result of this, is that a PvP fight was lost. OP didn't bother. He probably want bother in the future either.

 

[sewerratuk]

There's been a couple of times I've sheepishly boosted off and dropped a message to my interdictor saying "sorry mate not now, I can't deploy even half these weapons without losing power" or "we'll go for the lols but be warned I'm sporting 7 unengineered rails..."

Been there a few times. Generally get blown up before I finish writing. Just shrug, rebuy and jump back again

 

[Sweet&Dandy]

The problem is that the Cutter is the most formidable war ship in the game. That does not matter, because build > ship in ED. The modifiers are extreme for everything. In ED a cargo carrying war ship doesn't stand up well against an armored party boat.

The only result of this, is that a PvP fight was lost. OP didn't bother. He probably want bother in the future either.

This is very true. And it's not even like I scrimped on shields or defences either! As soon as I heard the computer saying this was breaking and that was overheating I didn't even bother deploying weapons! I don't think this is working as originally intended. I do wonder if engineers has taken things too extreme? It would be foolish to do anything but run as captain if it is the only outcome over which you have control. A Cutter with as much shield protection as I had should not be choosing to boost out of there, after two seconds of engagement IMO.

 

[Mohrgan]

I would have to say, that not being interested in applying any/all of the secondary effects on weapons is reasonable. But, not investigating them to assess the threat they pose is a mistake. In order to prepare yourself for the threats you face in open, you have to know what they are.

 

[seko]

Community goals are one of the main hotspots; it attracts many of the more skilled and engineered pilots looking for a ruck. As such it should be treated as one of the most risky systems you can be in, and is not a great place to get acquainted with Open style play if you aren't engineered properly yourself.

To get on par with them in some form you'll need to engineer to the max, but I'd honestly wait for the engineering update unless you wanna try roll some god rolls before then. It'll become generally easier for you to be on level footing, and then you can concentrate on flight technique.

If you want to practise your skillz before then please feel free to add myself, CMDR StiTch! on PC, or look up the GCI. There's usually a wealth of players willing to give loadout assistance and in-game practice.



Come now my darling, I know 9.5/10 people (totally legit statistic, much to the detriment of our half a person at the end) cannot handle being looked at funny and feel the need to turn it into melodrama, but I believe OP is looking for something constructive.

Also, I'd argue that imbalance is the soul of engineering, and that as OP's opponents were well engineered and OP was not, that it was very much imbalanced. It wouldn't be exclusive to PvP if NPCs could wield slightly reasonable engineering themselves, but alas...neutership.

I wouldn't call them skilled pilots, their ships are well engineered I agree, they are hanging around a CG looking for easy prey that can't fight back. If they were any good, they would all be in CQC challenging each other.

 

[seko]

That's my point- it's not a particularly rich pvp experience for either party is it?

bullies get their kicks, where they will