My lengthier thoughts on exploration, and improving its risks and rewards

Inspired by some recent discussions and how the aliens were "discovered", I've decided to write a lengthier piece on my thoughts on exploration in Elite. So, allow me to get on my soapbox and say my piece.

First off, as a bit of introduction, while most people know me as the ELW list guy, ever since the alpha I've actually done plenty of things besides exploration. Powerplay, wing mining in HazRES, high security planetary base assaults, you name it, I've done it - at least tried it out a handful of times. I like combat, and I regularly return to the bubble, spend a few weeks there doing various things, but I inevitably find some reason to go out into the black again.
To me, this last part is quite interesting: regardless of the many flaws of exploration in Elite, fundamentally it still does the core of it right - at least, for me it does. Obviously not for everyone.

But of course, there are aspects of it which aren't done well. Most of these have been discussed already, so I'm not going to go into detail about how inconsistent exploration data payouts are, not to mention small, nor am I going to go on about how traveling is often boring.
No, I'd rather talk about what's missing from exploration and how it could be better solved. Well, besides content. One can pretty much always say that something could use more content.

So, what's missing from exploration? Better tools to find things and actual danger. How could these be solved? By adding optional active scanning which would also eventually attract attention to you. That way, travelling through the galaxy wouldn't be more dangerous than it currently is, but poking at things with a stick might lead you to disturb a hornet's nest.

Now that I've made my point, let me elaborate on these.


Frontier have steadily been adding exploration content to the game, although the rate at which they've done so isn't terribly big. However, the rate at which said new content is discovered(!) is much less than that. Why? Because they are rare, and we don't have good enough tools to find them. Most of the time, one needs to almost literally stumble into something to find it without hints. And Frontier's problem with hints is that due to the community method of solving stuff, once they give out hints to locations they are solved and/or found within a day, if not hours. If they aren't, then either the hints are vague enough to be nigh useless (*cough* Formidine Rift *cough*) or the thing to be found is rare enough to require far too much luck (*cough* Unknown Probe convoys *cough*).

This does sound bad, but it could be solved by explorers having better tools to find rare things. The solution would be scanners which provide information about whether special stuff can be found somewhere, and scanners that require more than just pointing your ship somewhere and finding out everything about it based on one scan. Something that's more like the excellent SRV wave scanner than the lazy Detailed Surface Scanner. Personally, I'd most like to have an orbital scanner that sends out a ping towards what's in front of you, and you get a pong back if there's an anomaly down there somewhere. If you want to narrow down its location, you'd have to fly closer and ping again. That way, you'd have to be more active, fly your ship and send out pings to narrow down the location of the anomaly, instead of getting the precise location of whatever might be down there.
And these pings could lead to something else too: more danger. I'd say that if exploration will be more dangerous (and FDev have warned that it will be!), then active scans should lead to increased danger, and not just passively travelling through the galaxy. (There would be plenty of loud complaints if the current methods of exploration were suddenly much more dangerous, and frankly, those complaints would have a valid point.)


About the current state of danger and exploration. Basically, exploration is one of, if not The, least dangerous things you can do in Elite. Yes, we've had the devs saying that explorers should be armed in the future because things might turn dangerous, but these warnings were done so long ago that they sound like the boy crying wolf. But right now, outside of the immediate vicinity of populated systems, you can travel through the galaxy peacefully, with the only real danger coming from your own mistakes, and some very rare bugs. You could say that exploration is Mostly Harmless. However, universally increasing the danger level everywhere would be a lazy and bad decision. Rather, it should be a risk-reward thing: higher risks are tied with higher rewards.
And if you just want to travel undisturbed, you should continue to be able to do so. A good designer should not raise risks for existing activities without raising rewards too.

Now, I talked about active scanning earlier. The principle should be relatively simple: the more active scans you do, the more likely you are to attract attention. The form of said attention, and the time it would take for them to arrive, should depend on your distance to various special regions: pirates from human space, aliens from other regions (perhaps the permit-locked ones?). So once you fire off your D-Scanner, orbital scanner or anything that involves active scanning, then an invisible timer should start until some NPC(s) come looking for you. With a single DS ping, this should take fairly long. But with repeated orbital pings, it should keep decreasing.

This could also add a good use for Basic and Intermediate D-Scanners: the less energy emitted by them would attract much less attention than the Advanced's system-encompassing honk.

For example, an ADS ping could start an invisible timer at, say, 15 minutes. (This should vary depending on distances to regions.) Each orbital ping could reduce the remaining time by one minute, for example. This way, you'd have a good reason for avoiding constant pings (which could cheapen the planetary search) and for being more conservative with them - and you'd also have a good method of attracting attention if you want it to come!
And this way, if you just wanted to look at some planets, find Earth-likes and so on, you could do so with one ADS ping and move on before anyone came.

Of course, if ADS pings lead to increased danger too, then so should the reward for scanning things be increased. Alternatively, the D-Scanners could be kept the way they are, and only orbital scanners should draw attention.

Introducing such a new gameplay mechanic would also be useful for other stuff. For example, you might find automated probes, which you could scan to receive useful data but then you'd have to evade pursuers that the owners of the probe would send after you. Although I think that the current NPC pursuit would have to be improved before this were really feasible.


In closing, let me just mention that the current exploration mechanics pretty much failed when it came to discovering aliens. The current encounter was said by FD to have been present since release, but nobody ever found the original location of the aliens, so the developers eventually had to add them to the Pleiades and thus pretty much force them to be discovered. The whole thing would have been even more interesting if it didn't first happen in the most obvious location.
The other alien discovery, that of the first ruins, was quite interesting: Frontier unintentionally gave out a difficult hint, and the site was discovered within days. Meanwhile, the red plants(?) shown in the same trailer are still yet to be found.

However, on the whole how the content is distributed is pretty good. Personally, I like that there are many barren worlds, and ones without any special features: it's realistic, and makes the rare finds more special. It's certainly better than if every planet housed something, because if there's "special" stuff everywhere, then no such stuff is actually special.
I would make volcanic sites more frequent though.
More content would be good, but for people to have more fun looking for more content, I think better exploration methods are needed. Having the option of better rewards at the price of increased tension and increased danger would also be good.


Thanks for reading all this! Feedback and comments would be quite welcome.
 
Interesting ideas. I really like the idea of pinging a planet and getting info back if there is something there and having close in on whatever the POI is. That way the people that take time for each planetary body will be rewarded more often with rare finds. I like it.

I have to say I disagree with the danger aspect. While risk/reward ratio is worth looking into, I don't think someone who's 30,000ly outside inhabited space should be hunted by NPC's just to make things interesting. Now, if Frontier has placed aliens in different parts of the galaxy and we haven't found them yet? I would agree with you. Stumbling into a bubble of systems currently inhabited by aliens, sending out a honk and 15 minutes later seeing some NPC's on your radar would certainly get the blood pumping and would give us even more incentive to get out there. It would also force us to reconsider our outfitting choices and even ship choices. But just a blanket ADS honk starting a timer for the sake of adding danger seems as uninteresting as no danger. If I'm understanding your idea correctly, if not I hope you'll clarify so I can understand it better.

I'm only Ranger, having around 20,000ly worth of "outside the bubble" exploration under my belt. So my opinions means little compared to you veterans. That being said I do like some of your ideas and appreciate you laying them out in the format you did. Definitely worth discussion. :)
 
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Oh, you are the ELW list guy?!

Thats fine, but lets be serious!

You are the subforum drinking game guy!! :D

Thanks for sharing that nice ideas,
hope they will be heared :)
 
Frontier has added content which explorers can make us of, but they’ve added zero new core gameplay mechanics to exploration since 1.0 (except for discovered tags in 1.1, and neutron hops in 2.2). We now have planetary surfaces to land on but absolutely no deep space POI’s or features to explore for, nothing to scan for data and return with. We have geysers and fumeroles which are awesome, but absolutely no tools to find them with, and again we can’t scan them for data to sell or return home with. Content without gameplay mechanics to make use of said content. It would be like giving combat players enemy ships but no weapons to shoot them with, nor any scanners to find them.

You’ve got some good ideas Marx, and I’d love to discuss them, maybe even post up my own ideas, heaven knows I could fill pages full of ideas for exploration, but to be truthful I’m tired of the discussion. It’s become so incredibly disheartening. The game is two years old now and explorers simply haven’t been on the developer’s priority list, and I don’t see that changing anytime soon. I fear that what we have, what we have had since launch, is all we are getting for the long foreseeable future.

Maybe someday Frontier will start thinking about explorers more. I certainly hope so.
 
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Frontier has added content which explorers can make us of, but they’ve added zero new core gameplay mechanics to exploration since 1.0 (except for discovered tags in 1.1, and neutron hops in 2.2). We now have planetary surfaces to land on but absolutely no deep space POI’s or features to explore for, nothing to scan for data and return with. We have geysers and fumeroles which are awesome, but absolutely no tools to find them with, and again we can’t scan them for data to sell or return home with. Content without gameplay mechanics to make use of said content. It would be like giving combat players enemy ships but no weapons to shoot them with, nor any scanners to find them.

You’ve got some good ideas Marx, and I’d love to discuss them, maybe even post up my own ideas, heaven knows I could fill pages full of ideas for exploration, but to be truthful I’m tired of the discussion. It’s become so incredibly disheartening. The game is two years old now and explorers simply haven’t been on the developer’s priority list, and I don’t see that changing anytime soon. I fear that what we have, what we have had since launch, is all we are getting for the long foreseeable future.

Maybe someday Frontier will start thinking about explorers more. I certainly hope so.

And when they do, my fear is that it will be something along the lines of giving us things to shoot at, or things to shoot at us. That would really miss the mark for what many, if not most, explorers want. Yes, we want danger...but from the natural environment.
 
Frontier has added content which explorers can make us of, but they’ve added zero new core gameplay mechanics to exploration since 1.0 (except for discovered tags in 1.1, and neutron hops in 2.2).

I think engineered FSD had vastly higher impact on exploration than neutron boost. That made every ships a potential explorer - like my FDL. :)

Edit:

As for exploration mechanics, I guess we are a tiny niche within a niche that is playing E : D. Before knowing Elite, I never even though of having a similar game because I though it would be technically impossible and even if it would possible, who would want a game like this?
At the end explorers got a huge galaxy that is only interesting for only a small fraction of players - the majority of them will never leave the bubble and the surroundings afterall.. And we'll get incremental improvement in terms of what's to discover like we've got landings, then volcanism, enhanced astronomical bodies (like neutron stars - I don't want another beige flame here).

Again, there are lots of stuff to improve, I agree with that, but take a look around. Elite is the only game that offers this experience, so I guess I should be happy what we've got.
 
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Your post is well-written, and obviously was constructed with care, and forethought.

I like a lot of the ideas that you have - I was just talking the other day about how nice it would be if FD would bake something into the DSS that tells you if something is on a given planet to find.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and mostly because of the things that are reportedly still not found. More ruins or crash sites, perhaps both. Also, there seem to be some far-flung small pockets of civilization that have yet to be discovered. Why aren't the Explorers of the game finding these things? I feel like I can say with full confidence that desire isn't the issue.

There is frequent talk about how large the galaxy is, but even the smallest planets that we can land on are still quite large. Trying to find the next set of ruins, for example, would take a single Commander quite some time even if they were looking on the correct planet. I think we need more hand-holding to find these things in ways other than having to resort to tools outside of the game to descramble coded messages. I think this would be a perfect addition to the DSS, would provide more incentive to use it, and finding things (even the wreckage of some hapless explorer) should pay really well.

I actually like the idea of Exploration becoming more dangerous - but there are a number of people who would not welcome such a change, and there isn't any way to allow everyone to participate, yet opt out of the extra danger. On the other hand, Explorers aren't the majority of the playerbase, and it might be in FD's best interest to get the Combat-oriented folks incentivized to go out into the black, and take whatever losses from the Exploration community that comes with that decision.

In closing, let me just mention that the current exploration mechanics pretty much failed when it came to discovering aliens. The current encounter was said by FD to have been present since release, but nobody ever found the original location of the aliens, so the developers eventually had to add them to the Pleiades and thus pretty much force them to be discovered. The whole thing would have been even more interesting if it didn't first happen in the most obvious location.
The other alien discovery, that of the first ruins, was quite interesting: Frontier unintentionally gave out a difficult hint, and the site was discovered within days. Meanwhile, the red plants(?) shown in the same trailer are still yet to be found.

If I were a full-time Explorer, I can't think of anything more rewarding to be among the first to discover in this game. I would be bending my time and attention towards this goal, and collaborating with others, maybe even flying in Wings to cover more ground, instead of being out in the middle of nowhere, where nothing is happening. Clearly, I must be in the minority. To each their own, but I just don't understand how the Exploration community as a whole is not bent on completing/advancing the one piece of real content that exists in the game for that playstyle.

Really, I just cannot wrap my head around that. Perhaps I was mistaken about desire not being the issue.

Riôt
 
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I actually like the idea of Exploration becoming more dangerous - but there are a number of people who would not welcome such a change, and there isn't any way to allow everyone to participate, yet opt out of the extra danger.

Wrong on both counts. The majority of explorers would love to have more danger in exploring, we just don't want that danger coming from aliens shooting at us. That's terribly uninspired and far too bubble like. We want natural dangers like the new neutron jumps gave us, game mechanics that require skill to complete or we face the consequences. Dangers like solar flares while scooping, lethal storms of wind and lightning on planet surfaces, wear and tear mechanics for being out in deep space too long which require us to make repairs, volcanic activity which can damage our SRV's and ships, etc. Danger we can encounter while exploring but deal with through skill and knowledge and preparation. But make a serious mistake and pay the consequences.

And as for people being able to opt out, sure it would be an option, just don't take advantage of neutron jumps. Or don't land on that volcanic world. Or don't fly down to a planet with dangerous weather on it. Or don't scoop at this star which is lively and jump to the next more docile star to scoop. We want danger which make us choose, or decide, and react and deal with.

If I were a full-time Explorer, I can't think of anything more rewarding to be among the first to discover in this game. I would be bending my time and attention towards this goal, and collaborating with others, maybe even flying in Wings to cover more ground, instead of being out in the middle of nowhere, where nothing is happening. Clearly, I must be in the minority. To each their own, but I just don't understand how the Exploration community as a whole is not bent on completing/advancing the one piece of real content that exists in the game for that playstyle.

Really, I just cannot wrap my head around that. Perhaps I was mistaken about desire not being the issue.

What you are mistaken about is just how terrible exploration tools actually are in game. It's hard and frustrating finding geysers and fumeroles and fungal life on planets right now, and it's terribly time consuming and very unrewarding. Most currently discovered sites were found by a lot of luck and blind brute force searching. You are mistaken about desire not being the issue, the issue is a lack of game mechanics.
 
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Thanks for the replies! Let's see...

First off, I don't claim to speak for all explorers, or even the majority. Anyone who does claim to do that should have some evidence backing their claim, so some polls would be nice. Of course, exploration subforum polls would only reflect the views of the exploration subforum posters, Frontier forum polls only the views of Frontier forum posters, and so on - but it would still be something to back your claim with. Personally, I think it's an interesting question, and I think I'll set up a poll for it soon: "Would you like more possible danger in exploration, and if so, from what kinds of sources?"

I have to say I disagree with the danger aspect. While risk/reward ratio is worth looking into, I don't think someone who's 30,000ly outside inhabited space should be hunted by NPC's just to make things interesting. Now, if Frontier has placed aliens in different parts of the galaxy and we haven't found them yet? I would agree with you. Stumbling into a bubble of systems currently inhabited by aliens, sending out a honk and 15 minutes later seeing some NPC's on your radar would certainly get the blood pumping and would give us even more incentive to get out there. It would also force us to reconsider our outfitting choices and even ship choices. But just a blanket ADS honk starting a timer for the sake of adding danger seems as uninteresting as no danger. If I'm understanding your idea correctly, if not I hope you'll clarify so I can understand it better.
Yeah, I wrote two things: first, the ADS honk might be worth reconsidering, second, that danger level should vary between regions, an universal (well, galactic) danger level would just be lazy. Like you mentioned, stumbling into alien territory should be more dangerous than just going through empty space.

Tangentially related: personally, now that alien hyperdiction have been encountered, I'd do away with the region permit locks, and have those systems be unreachable by way of guaranteed hyperdictions. That would certainly be more interesting than "FSD lock-on failure".


Frontier has added content which explorers can make us of, but they’ve added zero new core gameplay mechanics to exploration since 1.0 (except for discovered tags in 1.1, and neutron hops in 2.2).
I'd say that neither are core gameplay mechanics. What was a new core gameplay mechanic was the ability to land on planets. But FD tags are just an addition to regular scanning, and neutron star boosts are an addition to regular supercruising. A new core gameplay mechanic has to be entirely new: for instance, if we could have a new kind of drive where we would actually fly through interstellar space as opposed to having the ship's autopilot take us through witch-space.
Mind you, it follows from this that it's not just explorers who got no new core gameplay mechanics save for Horizons, but everyone else as well. Perhaps we can argue that Powerplay was such, but to be frank it has so many design issues that I don't think it would be worth counting as such.

We have geysers and fumeroles which are awesome, but absolutely no tools to find them with, and again we can’t scan them for data to sell or return home with. Content without gameplay mechanics to make use of said content.
Pretty much this, especially the part on tools and scan data. Note that barnacles were originally this way too, and now you can scan them for data to sell. So at least that part is entirely doable with what's in the game already, it just needs to be extended to other stuff too.

The game is two years old now and explorers simply haven’t been on the developer’s priority list, and I don’t see that changing anytime soon. I fear that what we have, what we have had since launch, is all we are getting for the long foreseeable future.
To be realistic, the game's core gameplay is flying your ship, and its biggest strength is combat. It's little wonder it's the most popular, and it's also little wonder that the priority of the developers would be to prioritise the biggest strengths first. The second biggest strength, however, is the Stellar Forge, and that is going to receive new stuff in the future. But on the question of "when", Frontier are very conservative, as they pretty much only show stuff when it's almost ready and certain to be included.
Also, the devs have hinted that exploration and mining shall be receiving attention with 2.3, but given that we know so little about that upcoming update, that isn't much. But at least it's something as opposed to nothing. And to be fair, adding multicrew would be the best occasion at which to improve those two activities.


Your post is well-written, and obviously was constructed with care, and forethought.
Thanks! It was that I used italics and bolds, wasn't it? ;)

I like a lot of the ideas that you have - I was just talking the other day about how nice it would be if FD would bake something into the DSS that tells you if something is on a given planet to find.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and mostly because of the things that are reportedly still not found. More ruins or crash sites, perhaps both. Also, there seem to be some far-flung small pockets of civilization that have yet to be discovered. Why aren't the Explorers of the game finding these things? I feel like I can say with full confidence that desire isn't the issue.

There is frequent talk about how large the galaxy is, but even the smallest planets that we can land on are still quite large. Trying to find the next set of ruins, for example, would take a single Commander quite some time even if they were looking on the correct planet. I think we need more hand-holding to find these things in ways other than having to resort to tools outside of the game to descramble coded messages. I think this would be a perfect addition to the DSS, would provide more incentive to use it, and finding things (even the wreckage of some hapless explorer) should pay really well.

On the other hand, Explorers aren't the majority of the playerbase, and it might be in FD's best interest to get the Combat-oriented folks incentivized to go out into the black, and take whatever losses from the Exploration community that comes with that decision.
From what I've heard when talking with plenty of "combat people", the big issue for them isn't just the "rocky and icy moons only" problem, but also the amount of time travelling takes. As somebody once put it: "I'd only go to Colonia if I could do the trip in half an hour." Changing both would easily be fundamental changes.

Although personally, I'd love to have a galaxy drive that could warp you over very long distances, but would be like high-speed low-altitude canyon flying. Frankly, if you could do that for half an hour without crashing your ship, that would be a good way of long distance travel.


If I were a full-time Explorer, I can't think of anything more rewarding to be among the first to discover in this game. I would be bending my time and attention towards this goal, and collaborating with others, maybe even flying in Wings to cover more ground, instead of being out in the middle of nowhere, where nothing is happening. Clearly, I must be in the minority. To each their own, but I just don't understand how the Exploration community as a whole is not bent on completing/advancing the one piece of real content that exists in the game for that playstyle.

Really, I just cannot wrap my head around that. Perhaps I was mistaken about desire not being the issue.
Like Mengy said, it's the lack of tools. Even if you have hints pointing towards a specific planet, if you have only your eyes to use and nothing else, actually finding something is very difficult and unrewarding. Take Merope 5 c as the best example. But even when you have a blue poi circle (which you don't for barnacles, alien ruins and such), it's still incredibly tedious to find geysers, fungal life and such. I have nothing but respect for the people who still do this and look for stuff, but personally, I can't do it hours on end, and you can easily put four hours into this and have nothing at all to show for it. Which I believe is why people tend to do the exploration where you have at least something to show for even ten minutes, even if it's as little as having travelled a bit farther.
 
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Like Mengy said, it's the lack of tools. Even if you have hints pointing towards a specific planet, if you have only your eyes to use and nothing else, actually finding something is very difficult and unrewarding. Take Merope 5 c as the best example. But even when you have a blue poi circle (which you don't for barnacles, alien ruins and such), it's still incredibly tedious to find geysers, fungal life and such. I have nothing but respect for the people who still do this and look for stuff, but personally, I can't do it hours on end, and you can easily put four hours into this and have nothing at all to show for it. Which I believe is why people tend to do the exploration where you have at least something to show for even ten minutes, even if it's as little as having travelled a bit farther.

I addressed this in the paragraph that seems to be skipped by those quoting me, so I'll paraphrase it: The tools that we have don't allow much chance for finding something that is less than 5k square, on a single planet, in one of 400 billion+ star systems. That was why I suggested the DSS giving some indication that something is there to find, and maybe goes so far as to highlight a hemisphere. This could be a simple wreck, or ruins, or anything else that makes sense, can be scanned, and (perhaps most importantly) pays really well for that scan data.

If you knew that a given planet had something worth finding (whether it's ruins, or just really high value scan data), and knew which hemisphere it was located in, that might provide enough incentive to search. If it gave a smaller area than a hemisphere, that might *make it too easy,* but I would be ok with an area that was like 20k in diameter. That is a somewhat large search area for one Commander, but with the right gear (fast ship, or a fighter), that could be covered in a reasonable amount of time, especially if the payouts were good enough.

Wrong on both counts. The majority of explorers would love to have more danger in exploring, we just don't want that danger coming from aliens shooting at us. That's terribly uninspired and far too bubble like. We want natural dangers like the new neutron jumps gave us, game mechanics that require skill to complete or we face the consequences. Dangers like solar flares while scooping, lethal storms of wind and lightning on planet surfaces, wear and tear mechanics for being out in deep space too long which require us to make repairs, volcanic activity which can damage our SRV's and ships, etc. Danger we can encounter while exploring but deal with through skill and knowledge and preparation. But make a serious mistake and pay the consequences.

And as for people being able to opt out, sure it would be an option, just don't take advantage of neutron jumps. Or don't land on that volcanic world. Or don't fly down to a planet with dangerous weather on it. Or don't scoop at this star which is lively and jump to the next more docile star to scoop. We want danger which make us choose, or decide, and react and deal with.

I like every idea you mentioned - it made me think of the landing on LV-426 in Aliens, and how awesome that would be to experience in this game. I had said that there was no way to implement such things in a way that all players could experience, yet opt out of the danger aspect, and your response was that they *just don't do it.* I'm curious how that makes me wrong, because those who don't want the danger component *just not doing it* are, in fact, not experiencing the new hotness at all.

Also, the (comparatively) few people in the Exploration community that you might converse with on a frequent basis do not, in fact, make up the majority of the community. I'm going to tell you a straight-up truth about people; the only people who would be *completely* ok with losing months worth of exploration data because a volcanic jet they didn't see erupted under them are the same people who clear their save when they die anyway. They do exist in this game, but they are very few in number. I am not ok losing hours worth of data, let alone months. I would do the rebuy, and keep playing (because I enjoy the game), but that isn't something I would just shrug off easily, and I don't think that many other people would be able to, either. Some yes, most...no. People don't like feeling like they have wasted their time. Again, your solution is *just don't do it.* That's valid, certainly, but people also don't like awesome new content in the game type that they prefer being unavailable because they aren't willing to accept the new risks.

What you are mistaken about is just how terrible exploration tools actually are in game.

I am fully aware of how inadequate they are, and I addressed this in my first post, and again in this one. Perhaps, this time, you will see it.

I really did like all of the ideas you mentioned, by the way, and I hope to see at least some of them come alive in the game. I also agree that getting shot at by something needs to make sense - 30k out in the middle of nowhere is not someplace we should be encountering Combat, though if someone was near to the current locked systems, it would be more reasonable.

Riôt
 
I addressed this in the paragraph that seems to be skipped by those quoting me, so I'll paraphrase it: The tools that we have don't allow much chance for finding something that is less than 5k square, on a single planet, in one of 400 billion+ star systems. That was why I suggested the DSS giving some indication that something is there to find, and maybe goes so far as to highlight a hemisphere.
Ah, sorry. You only mentioned this in passing, and it looked to me that your main point (besides the parts about danger) was that you don't understand why the explorer community isn't focused on finding these hidden stuff. Like I said before, it's that the act of such searching is really unrewarding, perhaps The most unrewarding thing one can do in the game. Sure, you might be the first to find something entirely new in the game, but the chances of that happening are incredibly low. Now, as for your suggestion: it would be good if the DSS at least told you that the planet does have something, perhaps even the hemisphere, but it would only be a small step up. Would it be better than what we have currently? Absolutely. Would it be lazy design? Of course. Would it be fun? Maybe for a few players. Implementing it, however, would actually make implementing something much better actually more difficult: people would complain about why the new method isn't easier than the old "point your DSS towards the planet and it'll magically tell you if there is something" method. So I can understand why Frontier haven't added something like this yet, even though it would probably take them a small amount of time to do.

Plus let me point to Merope 5 c as a (counter-)example again: even though we have plenty of hints pointing towards something being on the surface, especially after the latest update, people have searched it to death as a community effort and still haven't found anything special about it.

However, your extended-DSS suggestion could be achieved with missions too. "There's an anomaly on this planet / planet's northern hemisphere, you have four weeks to find it for a nice reward" could work quite well before better scanning is in place. (And even after, it would be still good to have.)


As for danger and dying: excellent point. I suppose I'm so used to never dying while exploring that I forgot about the potential data loss. Of course, this is also another reason why increased dangers should be optional, so that if you care about data loss, you can avoid it. Yes, exploration as an activity is one of the least dangerous ones there is, but it's also the one where you have by far the most to lose if you do die. Of course, some data insurance would be good, and it would be a necessity if risks were to universally increase. (Which I still prefer they didn't, for reasons mentioned earlier.)
 
I like every idea you mentioned - it made me think of the landing on LV-426 in Aliens, and how awesome that would be to experience in this game. I had said that there was no way to implement such things in a way that all players could experience, yet opt out of the danger aspect, and your response was that they *just don't do it.* I'm curious how that makes me wrong, because those who don't want the danger component *just not doing it* are, in fact, not experiencing the new hotness at all.

Thanks, but it's not so much "don't do it" to avoid the (potential, Not Yet Implemented) dangers of exploration, but rather using skill and tools to minimize or avoid the dangers. Of course with random procedural possibility that things change and you might need to either risk a decision or flee to stay safe. Gameplay mechanics can be used to not only heighten gameplay but also force players to make choices while playing, use strategy and think things through, all of which is something very lacking currently in exploration in Elite.

I posted a story in another thread awhile ago giving an idea of future Elite exploration gameplay, where I'd like the game to be when it comes to features and mechanics. I'll just repost it here to provide my "vision" of exploration down the road for Elite, if I had my way:

*************

So picture this:

You jump into an unknown system, two dozen thousand light years from anywhere while out on your three month long exploration journey, and are greeted by a huge F class star. After pointing the nose at the star to scan you initiate the discovery scanner: 47 objects detected, looks like it might be an interesting system.

Upon opening the Orrery map you are presented with a two-star system. The first star only has a few small worlds closely orbiting it, they look like rocky worlds. The second star however is out 40K ls and has over a dozen planets of various sizes orbiting it, not to mention a few comets zooming about. Many of the orbits are off axis too, very crazy system orbit wise. A binary pair of potato planets very closely orbiting each other, might be good candidates to land and take some seismic surface samples with the SRV? A ringed volcanic world, finally! You’ve had that Stellar Cartography Mission to detail scan a ringed volcanic planet in this sector for over four weeks, so you absolutely need to scan that one; might want to land on it too and see if you can find a volcano large enough to satisfy that other mission also. A huge gas giant with over a dozen ice moons orbiting it but one moon just might be a water world, or even an Earth like? You certainly need to scan that as they are worth much more credits now that Stellar Cartography has increased their payouts for ELW’s.

So you trek on over to the far star, checking your FSD module health along the way. It’s still okay but you are going to have to land soon to hunt for more AFMU materials, a few more neutron hops and your FSD will start to malfunction. After flying over you proceed to detail scan all of the worlds, and you’re thrilled to see that one of the binary potato planets not only has magma fumeroles but also has a very unique tectonic signature! Although the cargo hold is starting to get full from all of the other surface ores and samples you’ve collected so far, you will need to get a core sample from this one too. The planet’s atmosphere is not pleasant, with frequent powerful storms all over it, but it’s worth the risk of going down to land.

You enter orbital cruise and deploy the DSS again, and now your surface map has highlighted regions on it designating where you can search for both the fumeroles and the surface samples. Since both of these get more valuable with distance from SOL these scans and samples should be worth a lot of credits! You also now have the weather map, and yep there are dangerous storms all over, fast moving too both with gale force winds and strong lightning. It’s still worth landing, so you decide to get the surface samples first as the storms seem less over in that region (for now at least).

Taking the ship down is a struggle as the atmosphere throws you all over, you even take a few lightning strikes which cause some module damage, you are really going to have to replenish the AFMU very soon, AGAIN. You do make it down though, and although the landing is rough it’s a keeper. After deploying the SRV Mk III (which is a surface mining / exploration focused SRV) you dismiss the ship and begin searching for spots to take core samples from. The wave scanner helps you triangulate a suitable location after much searching, down in a shallow canyon with a small river of liquid sulfuric acid running through it. Taking great care not to dip the tires into the dangerous river, you deploy the core drill rig and get your core sample.

After climbing back out of the canyon you spot a huge storm over the horizon, and it appears to be coming closer even as you sit and look at it now. Quickly you recall the ship, and of course it lands 4km away, in the direction of the storm! You race the SRV towards it but the wind is picking up, this will be close. Lightning strikes close by as you start getting pelted by small rocks, as the wind gains in force those rocks get larger and larger, and at 1.5km from the ship your SRV is now taking damage from the wind blown debris. A lighting strike now could really ruin your day! Luckily you get to the ship and dock just as the storm arrives. You blast off only to have the gusts throw the ship sideways and into a small hill, the hull takes damage as you regain control in an effort to gain altitude. Eventually you climb above the storm but not without taking a few lighting strikes, the ship is hurting. Back in orbit you safely run the AFMU dry while repairing the ship, you now absolutely need to land and gather materials for the AFMU. Time to scan the rest of the planets in this system, hopefully one of them has the right stuff to get your ship repaired!
 
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I like your vision, Mengy, because it promotes:

Making decisions that could have real repercussions
More potential diversity in ship builds, and perhaps also what ships are used (see previous point)
What we are doing out there objectively has more meaning/purpose
It would, for me, be exciting to experience
It would add another dimension to the game, which would lead to more gameplay options and mechanics

Some challenges that would need to be planned for:

There are many who would, after a short time, consider this to be less compelling content, and more annoying pita.
It's questionable if this content should be in the bubble at all (see previous point), which wouldn't make sense
Hopefully the Stellar Forge would have a distribution of such content that is considered *good* (not too much, not too little)

If FD added some (or all) of the things that have been mentioned in this thread so far, I think we would go from the somewhat sparse Exploration content that we currently have, to something that has a solid foundation for robust content in the future.

I'm not going to lie - FD mentioned a bit back that there is a surprise for 2.3 that's supposed to be pretty awesome, and if it hasn't already been leaked, I'm hoping that what we are talking about in this thread is that surprise.

Riôt
 
Thanks MrFail, it would certainly be great to have exploration so feature rich someday.

I'm not going to lie - FD mentioned a bit back that there is a surprise for 2.3 that's supposed to be pretty awesome, and if it hasn't already been leaked, I'm hoping that what we are talking about in this thread is that surprise.

Nah, the "surprise" won't be exploration related, you can bet your Cutter on that!

Things most likely for the "surprise" of 2.3:

  • Multicrew gunner positions on capitol ships, allowing players to "jump in" on cap ships to help defend important CZ's and such. This will be in preparation for the future player-directed cap ships that Frontier has hinted at, most likely via some Power Play mechanic or something.
  • Asteroid bases.
  • The Dolphin passenger ship.
  • Minimal space legs, allowing us to walk around our ship bridges (since they are already modeled anyway)
 
@ Mengy: those almost all sound great, but they would be enough things to implement to fill out an entire expansion, maybe more. Anyway, there is just one in there all that I'd say isn't a good idea: "Since both of these get more valuable with distance from SOL". I'd say that payouts neither increasing nor decreasing with distance are a good idea, and I think this was mentioned by developers way back when too. Why? Because if it increases with distance, then people will just go farm the far end of the galaxy while people closer to home will make peanuts compared to that, and it doesn't make sense in-universe either. For example, if you think about it, wouldn't an Earth-like world just next door would be worth more than one on the far side of the galaxy? Of course, in that case of payments decreasing with distance, people would farm the nearest stuff and then later explorers would be left to pick up the scraps in terms of payout, so to speak. So nah, I'd say that including distance as a factor in payouts is not a good idea.
Also because then you'd have to include distance from Jaques too, now that there are two bubbles.

Oh, and as for the surprise, the Dolphin can't be it because they already confirmed it's coming. So are comets, although they didn't say when: they are already generated by the Stellar Forge, just not implemented and visible to players yet.
 
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Anyway, there is just one in there all that I'd say isn't a good idea: "Since both of these get more valuable with distance from SOL". I'd say that payouts neither increasing nor decreasing with distance are a good idea, and I think this was mentioned by developers way back when too. Why? Because if it increases with distance, then people will just go farm the far end of the galaxy while people closer to home will make peanuts compared to that

But you also want to encourage deep space exploration, even reward it, via game mechanics. Yes it’s important to have a base value for exploration that makes it pay out well to all explorers, but the commanders who make the effort to venture far out into the unknown should also get something extra for their efforts in the form of bonus credits. That bonus doesn’t have to be game breakingly huge, but it should definitely reward the extra effort made. Data from the Abyssal Plains SHOULD be more valuable than data from the Pleaides Nebula. At least that’s my opinion.
 
In closing, let me just mention that the current exploration mechanics pretty much failed when it came to discovering aliens. The current encounter was said by FD to have been present since release, but nobody ever found the original location of the aliens, so the developers eventually had to add them to the Pleiades and thus pretty much force them to be discovered..

It's fun for me to speculate the possibility that a commander has already made contact with other intelligent beings and just has not disclosed anything about it. In some fashion Frontier has surely enabled a type of trigger to tip off the encounter. Amusingly, I wouldn't tell anybody if I were integrated with a living lost colony, benevolent aliens, or otherwise, if possible. Behind the scenes i'd document it, perhaps drop some really vague hints, and lmao, especially to see how Frontier would handle it.
 
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