My opinion on the depth issue

I see what you mean - there seems no real DESTINY? No consequences to your character development?

NB Destiny is DIFFERENT from FATE, Destiny is the result of 100% your actions or inactions from minute to minute from day to day. FATE is another name for chance events OUTSIDE your control.

So back to your thesis...

What do you suggest? Stronger consequences?


Yeah, I guess that's it in a nutshell, maybe not only stronger consequences, but longer lasting as well. What it really comes down to is building an identity for yourself in the universe. I think there are different ways this can be implemented in a game, but not many are suitable for ED. most MMO's focus on traditional character building, choosing skills, leveling and so on, but like I said, that's definitely not suitable for a game like ED. Story based decision making is obviously right out because of the lack of any story line, a lot of people believe getting their own station in game would solve the issue of depth because, IMO, they believe they will be able to control the station and upgrade it, which in the end is really just wanting to be able to make lasting decisions in the game. I don't think giving stations to players is a good idea either though, mainly because Frontier seems opposed to the idea, and I trust them in their decision making.

So yeah, as far as I can see, making consequences stronger and lasting consequences, namely, as mainly have stated here, in naval progression for example, I think is the best option.
 
Why should they?
The top 5 factions have well more than half a Trillion souls in their influence... EACH.

I can't find exact numbers, but that means maybe 5 or 6 TRILLION "people" in Elite BGS.

The fact that the authorities pay attention to you at all, that anyone pays attention to you at all, is remarkable.

The size and reach of the authorities is directly proportional to the number of people they govern.
No matter how many people there are in the universe, each one of them is an individual living their life, with things that are important to them.
If you save someone's life, or murder someone's brother, or work with someone for a long time, or commit a number of serious crimes, people will care.
Maybe the king of the universe won't care. Maybe you won't be asked to save the world. But your actions, and interactions, have consequences.

I think it's one of the biggest problems with the community around Elite that people seem only to think of extremes when it comes to events and consequence. Either things having no significance - sociopath space pilot, the fabled drop in the Elite ocean who doesn't matter to anyone and never stays in one place long enough to matter. Or events of galactic significance, like superpower politics or Thargoid invasions.

Depth comes in between. If you live a solitary and anonymous life that's fair enough, you wouldn't expect any developing consequences from your actions. Whatever actions you take will scarcely register on the superpower scale - it's a story that you're not a significant part of. What's missing in Elite is what lies between. We interact with people all the time (NPCs) - doing work for them, helping them out, saving them, fighting them. They have banter with us over comms. But then the forget we ever existed. This is a weakness. The Federation, as an entity shouldn't really care that I exist. The Federation pilot I just saved from an ambush really, really should. I might not be part of the galactic power play story, but I should be part of the story of certain individuals in a little corner of the galaxy where I'm active.

As far as I can tell, the problem at the heart of it all is the lack of servers resulting in a general lack of persistence. Most of the game is generated out of nothing every time with go in or out of super cruise. Hopefully they will address this so that you can encounter the same characters again, and their behaviour will be affected by what you've done in the past.
 
I like how people are actually talking in this thread, without much of the usual war, at least for now.
I'll jump in, as I too would like ED to become the tool to tell my story, as I was promised.


My memory goes back to Disco Freelancer RP 24/7 server. I had a lot of fun playing this free mod, and some of the mechanics used there could make ED an outstanding game.
I'll narrow down some of the solutions right here (mind me, I'm re-iterating this post for 3rd time now in an attempt to make it as short as possible...)


1) Provide players with means of aligning themselves with faction of their choice.
We already have the reputation system, but it means almost nothing. Becoming allied with a faction should (my propositions):
- allow player to wear faction's suffix (e.g: Cmd John Xenir [SC] (Sirius Corporation));
- enable access to items tied with that faction/gameplay (for example: being Sirius Corp member opens access to the biggest cargo hold extensions (or +10% capacity, for example); being member of faction engaged in resource processing should allow bonus to buy price; becoming allied with bounty hunting faction should grant access to that faction's weapons and ships; becoming high-ranked navy officer should grant access to Federal Corvette - these mechanics are already in place, only expanding on them would be required);
- restrict access to stations based on reputation: why should a pirate be able to dock in any lawful system, if he's known for being a criminal? This also implies that decisions you make have direct effect on what you can, and cannot do;
- create multiple slots for commander profiles, so players can fully enjoy different play styles, alignment with different factions;
- base faction membership on player's actions (for example, when joining lawful faction and wearing its suffix, be automatically kicked out and hunted by its npcs/players if performing illegal actions; this should also result in changes towards unlwaful factions - that's how you write your story, and become exile in lawful space, naturally turning to join unlawful faction); this would also mean:
- base reputation with other factions on reputation with current one: if you perform illegal activities, you should not only be more and more welcome among pirates/unlawfuls, but your reputation with lawful factions should degrade at the same time


2) Provide players with tools to write their own story; reward players for playing the game the way you intend:
- create a way to exchange credits, so that players seeking escort have means to pay for escort service; also
- provide way to create effective wings, where all ships can tie to leader's ship for flying in organized formation and following leader through jumpspace to next system in route;
- iron out instancing system so player interactions can be supported, instead of being discouraged by its current, glitchy state;
- if you want people to team up, reward them for doing so: give bonus to bounties if bounty hunters are supposed to team up; give bonus to damage if target-focusing in wings; these are just raw examples but the point is: if you want players to do something, encourage them to do so - this is universal truth that can be applied to any game mechanic;
- provide choice if you want to start on a station in Sidewinder, or maybe be a planetary rat with SRV only, working to get his few creds for Sidewinder and get the hell off that backwater rock.

The above are just my initial propositions to expand on what players can do in the game, and how they can interact with their surrounding reality, how they can affect the little chunk of galaxy they live in, and experience effects of their actions. That's what I believe should be focused on - not how one, tiny human can influence the galaxy, but how that one, tiny human can experience effects of his own actions, on himself.

(...)

Depth comes in between. If you live a solitary and anonymous life that's fair enough, you wouldn't expect any developing consequences from your actions. Whatever actions you take will scarcely register on the superpower scale - it's a story that you're not a significant part of. What's missing in Elite is what lies between. We interact with people all the time (NPCs) - doing work for them, helping them out, saving them, fighting them. They have banter with us over comms. But then the forget we ever existed. This is a weakness. The Federation, as an entity shouldn't really care that I exist. The Federation pilot I just saved from an ambush really, really should. I might not be part of the galactic power play story, but I should be part of the story of certain individuals in a little corner of the galaxy where I'm active.

As far as I can tell, the problem at the heart of it all is the lack of servers resulting in a general lack of persistence. Most of the game is generated out of nothing every time with go in or out of super cruise. Hopefully they will address this so that you can encounter the same characters again, and their behaviour will be affected by what you've done in the past.

That is what I feel as well: not the lack of influence on the galaxy, but lack of noticeable influence in a small scale on characters/environment of my current residing.
I am very well aligned with Sirius Corp and whatever faction runs the Gateway's main stations (can't remember the name, sorry), but it is reflected in nothing but the greeting when requesting docking permission, and a few more missions to chose from. And that's the lack of depth I believe people complain about. The fact that even if you change something locally for yourself (not the galaxy), it makes little to no difference at all for yourself.
 
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Spring 2015, when you came and said that the content is bad, there was lot of people defending Elite. It was still obvious that time, that the content of Elite sux.

Now increasing amount of players are in position, have played long enough to understand the situation -> Increased amount of posts about the subject. I am happy about this, but sad that it started 1 year after the launch.


Good post. I don't think this is the whole of the issue, but you've definitely highlighted a major aspect of it. I'd love for there to be more consequences and long-term effects of the decisions you make in-game.

And think about what was one of the suggestions coming from FD...

Should we provide a "pause" -button for PP, so that the consequences would not be that high. Meaning, that if you were part of PP, getting all the benefits, and suffering from constant attacks. So basically removing the consequences once more.

The reason is, because so many do not want to play PP because of the consequences. Not even understanding that most of us dont want to be part of PP because it has incredibly bad game design. It also does not fit in the game with the BGS, it is duplicate work, and soon they have to do duplicate content.
Radical opinion, and I am sure the devs will deny everything. But sometimes it is just good to look to that mirror, and admit who failed. If you never admit, you will never understand to fix it.

So basically, the devs are planning to decrease the consequences in the game. When the community has been saying the whole year to increase those. I like to write rants, I admit, no offence so be honest.. I am actually a nice guy. Still, have to admit that this kind of logics just hurt my brain.
 

El Dragoon!

Banned
Yes, this is another thread about lack of depth in ED, I know it's been covered 1000 times before, I've posted on many a thread about this issue myself. I am bringing it up again because I love ED and believe this is the most significant issue facing it today and we should continue to talk about it . I'm not pointing fingers or even angry in any way, Frontier have done an amazing job on this game, and I have very high hopes for it's future. Nonetheless I do think it has room for improvement, so here I go.

So this is an issue I've been thinking about for some time, what exactly is it that makes ED feel so shallow. My subconscious must have been working on this problem on it's own, because it just struck me over the head from seemingly out of nowhere. What I believe is the reason that this game lacks depth, is the lack of any significant decision making in the game.

Let me expand on this a little. In my opinion the deepest games are the ones that force a player to make a lasting decision, something that will stick with them until the end. Here are some examples of what I mean.

Any classic RPG is about building a character, to do this you must decide what you want that character to be, whether that be wizard, thief, warrior, whatever. But the point is, once you've made that decision, there is no going back. Once I've built a character, it's mine until I restart the game. In skyrim for example, once I've become a mage specializing in destruction magic, I can't easily change it into a sword wielding warrior, and then into a thief on a whim. The decisions I make early in the game impact who I am at the end.

Another, entirely different, but arguably one of the deepest games is the civilization series. why? because that game is basically only about making decisions that will have an impact on the game. the same can be said for the simcity franchise, because it's entirely about making a decision that lasts, where should I put my airport? That 's an important decision to make, one that impacts how my whole city works.

The witcher, also good depth, even though it discards with most of the classic RPG model. You can't choose a class or a name for that matter, or really customize the character in any significant way, But it creates depth because decisions you make can drastically alter the entire outcome of the game. I think the witcher 2 has something like 16 different possible endings.

FTL, a lesser known game, and one that you can play start to finish in only an hour or two, nonetheless, very deep. Every playthrough will be different and every single decision you make in any one playthrough could be the difference between winning and losing, there is a definite depth and strategy to the game, even if it's only 16 bit.

Now Elite: Dangerous. As far as I can tell, there is absolutely nothing for me to decide in ED that can't simply be undone on a whim. When I started playing, it didn't feel this way because money was a concern for me. Which ship I bought seemed at the time to be somewhat significant, but now that I'm rich, I can hop from any ship to the next as I like. Powerplay let's me join and leave any faction pretty well however I like with no impact on the game, (getting hunted for a few days doesn't count, that's not a lasting consequence). Bounties disappear after a week so that I could murder 100 of a factions NPC's and a week later be doing missions for them. There are no decisions to make in this game other than "what should I do today", there is no strategy whatsoever in Elite: Dangerous.

The way I look at the problem is this. ED is an RPG whether you like it or not, but here's the kicker, you're not actually playing the role a space ship pilot, you are playing the role of the space ship itself. You can choose the class of ship and outfit it the way you want just like you do with a classic RPG character. In Skyrim I can be a thief that uses illusion magic, in ED I can be an eagle that uses railguns. But here's where ED differs, although it absolutely is a role playing game, it's a terrible one.

Just imagine if in skyrim, you could decide at any moment to completely remake your character from the bottom up. All the depth of the game would be gone, who cares what you do in the first half of the game if it has no lasting impact in the second half. But this is what ED is right now, I can change ships on a whim and outfit it as I like, decide to be a bounty hunter one day and a pirate the next, Join this power this week, next week try another. No lasting decisions whatsoever.

If we were then to make ED more like a classic RPG, it would mean choosing your ship at the beginning of the game and then upgrading it as you play without ever being able to switch ships. That's obviously nonsense, and not what I'm saying at all, we shouldn't turn ED into skyrim. what could be done though is make the things we do impact the game more, so that I can't just decide to be a pirate one day, and a bounty hunter the next. Lock me into a few decisions, like which major power I choose, make bounties on our heads permanent until death. Make the things I do count somehow so that I actually have to decide if I want to do them.

anyway, rant over, thanks for reading, feel free to disagree with me.

look at the depth!
 
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