My perspective on FE2 and FFE

[drew]

This might be of interest to a wider audience, if not, feel free to delete. I'm an original Elite player, and never played FE2 or FFE. I've had to get to grips with them over the last few months from a standing start...

And this is my conclusion.

http://www.wagar.org.uk/elitereclamation/progress-report/beyond-the-frontier/

Cheers,

Drew.

 

[ianw]

Will take a look at that as I'm in the same boat/spaceship..

 

[loststargirl]

Right about combat

In Elite I had that feeling 'one down, two to go'. Doing a 180 with your ship to relief your shields a bit in sever dogfighting.

feeling victorious when downing all Thargoids one by one

 

[Sir.Tj]

Hi Drew,

Good read, I pretty much agree with your opinion on how FE&FFE's balance of either being destroyed in an instant at the start or being almost invunerable when you manage to get to the larger ships when you first get into the games. However, when you get more into the game and start doing a few things outside the box so to speak. Things like achieving a stable orbit around a large planetary object like Saturn, attempting a slingshot around the Sun or attempting a manual planetary landing and refulling from a stars atmosphere things get a lot more interesting and challenging.

Someone who used to post on here DraQ had some fascinating ideas on thing to do ingame and how newtonian physics worked etc, heres one of his posts It's well worth looking through some of his old posts.

Sadly a lot of people consider them poor children compared to Elite, but I think they still stand head and shoulders above other game out there.

Personally I loved the design of the Saker MKIII

 

[Captain Slick]

Hi, Drew.

i had been a huge Elite fan on the Apple][.

i was working in the field of graphics acceleration when a friend showed me Frontier. i was floored. the ships were shaded according to the local sun's position and color. areas with arcs were being filled quickly. even the strobes on the ships changed the local lighting.

visible ordinace, mounted accessories, retractable gear, various paint schemes and ship registrations only added more detail that i wanted. this was over the top.

the sounds on the Amiga were fantastic - especially the eerie wind and space station sounds.

i was also into flight simulation, and this was bigger than life. i played the game as though i was actually flying a spaceship. autopilot for planetary landings was for sissies. i never used maximum time advancement.

i would place the camera inside a dome, and just look at the little houses with red roofs. of course they are all the same! they're prefab from some manufacturer! i would watch the shading change with sunset, and vicariously "live there".

at night, falling asleep, i would think about where the ship was located, and what had to be done next - just like a second career. like "Firefly", i would think about what the crew was thinking, how much confidence they had in me, etc.

it's funny, gameplay almost seemed secondary.

 

[Slawkenbergius]

Good article. I hope the new game manages to marry the joy of the original Elite, with the majesty of the Frontier games, and augments it with more gameplay and some truly sexy graphics.

 

[Kerrash]

You know I felt the same way about the combat, I found it so hard years ago.

But since I found this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5knGR5scD9A
I have got back into GLFrontier and I am actually enjoying not being completely useless in a fight

EDIT: Don't worry we'll grab a beer tomorrow night and I can tell you all about Sonic the Hedgehog (I even have him on my phone)

 

[Listeri69]

I was 8 when the 1st elite came out and I figured out most of the controls within the 1st month or so learning to dock ect. It was the game I pretty much played all the time for a good 6 years.

When Frontier was in the gaming magazines I got sooooooooooo excited about its release I went out at 5:30 in the morning just to get a magazine because it had an article about it inside or an interview with David Braben in it

when I finally got the game the week it was published, installed I too was hit with the theme tune but I think everyone really remembers the blue Danube from FE2.

I thought the graphics were amazing for the time and likewise the physics of the planets orbiting the sun, but I was really disappointed in the actual game play, and the blue space.

I did a lot of exploring in the game, and the mission element added extra dimensions. I did play it for a long time eventually reaching deadly level, but combat was stupid for me the jousting technique rather than close quarters fighting as you describe so well from the original Elite.

I guess what it comes down to now as I never really played FFE, is the best gameplay elements from all the games are being put forward into Eliteangerous. with 21st century graphics and I think that’s what all of us really want.

 

[Zak Gordon]

The combat changed from Frontier to FFE (well at least the latest version of FFE).

Frontier really was all about the space joust, usually with just one enemy at a time.

In the link in my sig it talks a lot about FFE, the latest version, and just how surprised (pleasantly) i was that in my games of FFE it seemed to keep the awesome that was the Newtonian stuff, but mixes it up with multi-craft dogfights. While not as 'airplane' based as Elite combat, it really added a huge boost to the rather stale combat of Frontier.

One tip for both Frontier and FFE is to immediately switch your main engine off when in combat and just use thrusters to maneuver. Once you 'got' the latter Elite combat (and it was not easy) you really appreciated the extra depth having the Newtonian model gave the game, even the combat.

 

[MacArthur]

I think that almost all the problems that people have with the combat in FE2 can be traced to the strange naming of the engine modes. If you are fighting in manual mode or using the autopilot to line up an enemy you will have a frustrating experience. The infamous jousting.

Turn the engines off . . . but I'm in a scrap, why would I turn the engines off? . . .because they are rocket thrusters, not jets or propellors.

Siren . . engines off . . .orient using the scanner. Don't thrust directly towards your opponent, thrust off to the side a little, forwards or backwards depending on whether you want to increase or decrease the closing speed. (ignore your speed indicator, just watch the distance indicator change or try to judge distance visually, if you can see more than a pixel you can hit it). Adjust the direction of your thrusts to stay out of the firing line, wait for the opportunity to bring your guns to bear. How and when you take your shots depends on the match between your ships. If they are big and slow, you can get and stay close in behind and tickle them to death with the feeblest of lasers. If its the other way around, it can be a bit "joustier" as you need to line up one good shot on a more maneuverable ship.

I've reluctantly accepted that this control style probably wouldn't work too great in multiplayer. Fighting in this way relies on the NPC tactics being aggressive in a fairly predictable way. (assassins in FE2 sometimes fly a bit differently though).

It is a shame you only ever seem to get jumped by one ship at a time, staying out of the firing line of mulitple ships at once would be much more challenging. Elite definitely wins for this kind of tense battle.

Once I realised how to use the "engines off" setting properly, space combat and all other flying in FE2 became much more fun. Practice your engines off maneuvers around a space station, here your inertial direction and speed indicators mean something, use small thrusts to fly close and through and around the station. Combined with the stardreamer it is great for orbital stunts. Steam towards a planet, watch your inertial direction indicator suddenly drop below the horizon, point outwards, punch it, weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Good article Drew. For FE2 (I do not know FFE), most of your points of view are quite faithful to reality. You make a good analysis of the concrete part (technical) game. But we need to put the game in his periode. It was awesome there is 20 years. As the computer at this periode for most of the people. But FE2 in 1993 is much more than that. FE2 is just a background for personal imagination, inner sensations, the dream, escape, freedom. This rare sensation of being valorized by a game. Perhaps you have experienced this with the original Elite. For 2014, we will have the formidable advances in computer technology. And most importantly, we will have the faith, and perhaps also the new generation of players.

 

[Styggron]

Fantastic article Drew.

I was all ELITE like you and when FE2 was released I had it on the Amiga and my Amiga did not run it very well the frame updates were woeful so I left it for a while, I had a A2000 so I bought a 030 board eventually which ran FE2 quite well but the spark by then had gone....I did not get as hooked as with Elite, the combat model was a big change and I guess I never gave it enough time and other things were priority at the time like University. By the time FFE came out I had read there were lots of issues so I avoided it until I saw a version with a sticker on the front showing a squashed plastic bug over some goo saying "bugs squashed" for some reason I did not buy it............arrghhh..

I have since bought multiple versions as you can see from my sig I have also played FE2 a LOT more, not FFE though. I mainly play Oolite, Pioneer and FE2 emulated (Amiga).

 

[Arbanax]

Thanks Drew,

coming to E.D for the first time, with nothing but a base prior knowledge (never owned a computer till I was married and never played any of the games previously) your article really summoned up my recent experiences.

Since I'd never played before I've been dipping into GL Frontier, and finding that ok, the grind part is annoying and boring. Go to this planet, get shipment, go to that planet sell shipment, load new shipment and go back again. Rise and repeat - I know that once you've got credits to get further in the game (and further in the universe) it should be better. But I think some aspects of the game back then, where implied - using your imagination is fun. But I don't just play a game for it to leave me to fill in the blanks, I play it because I want the game to be fun as well.

Your case in point about fighting is a another good one. I often died, when attacked by Pirates, thanks to the comments, (stopping engines, counter intuitive or what - but grateful I now know) I might have a chance when I'm attacked again.

Anyway I've been encouraged to carry on with the game, since reading your article, just to try and get a better feel for it. I do hope that with the leaps and advances in games, E.D will have a lot more path toward the content. If you've got to play 40 hours a week to get the most out of it, then this 40 year old ain't gonna be getting much of that, game time is snatches here and there not continues long periods. I don't want to dampen anyone elses opportunity to plough in lots of time, but like you say I hope they get the sandbox aspect right, the scope and scale but also the content for users to just jump in and get something out of 90 mins of play once a week as well as those who can play 90 mins a day.

Thanks again

Ab

 

[Zak Gordon]

I wonder if we all use slightly different naming nomenclature for the Elite series?

Maybe different countries had a different name for the games etc?

In the UK i understand that the series is in this order:

1. Elite (the 8bit home computer era), 1984. The first Elite with airplane combat.

2. Elite Plus (PC DOS version), 1991. A PC update of the first game.

3. Frontier: Elite II (the 16bit home computer era), 1993. A complete new game, Newtonian physics etc.

4. Frontier First Encounters (PC DOS), 1995. Furthering much of what Frontier had done, new storylines, slightly better graphics etc. LOTS of bugs on initial release, but now very awesome

Although the last game could be called Elite III, unlike Frontier it didn't feature that on the box or in the game. I think many people were put off from FFE due to the state of it's buggy release, which is a shame because having played them all down the years, it really is the best version to date (with most of the bugs now fixed).

I can absolutely say, with hand on heart, that in FFE you will now get multi-craft combat, that is get into dogfights where more than one enemy will be able to hit you (and you hit them) all at the same time.

And it is not easy, you will die a lot at first, until you get better at combat or get a better ship/equipment. But this has always been the way of Elite, see my closing 'On death' statement.

And that is in a Newtonian physics model game, so no 'airplanes in space' combat (which wasn't bad, just not that realistic). This didn't really happen in Frontier for the most part, so combat mostly became a form of space joust with one opponent at a time.

=============================

Going back to your excellent article Drew, one thing that doesn't help either of the later games, in terms of immersion, and perhaps that can be a source of your 'not fun', is the Stardreamer speed-up-time aspect. And here is why.

The Stardreamer is kind of awesome. You can watch a solar system rotate, view sun rises and sun sets across any planetary body, space station or city.

With it you can live long enough (in your real life!) to survive the actual travel times of near real inter-planetary travel when in system. The game had to come up with something to offset this problem!

However. What tends to happen, especially for new players, is they simply whack the Stardreamer onto maximum speed, all the time. Everything passes in a blur, you miss all the awesome detail the game can render in it's awesome Newtonian near-real space model.

So for the most part both Frontier and FFE become games where you have static in dock situations, where you choose cargo, upgrade your ship, chat to people on the bulletin board etc.

Then on taking off towards your new destination, you have a few minutes to appreciate the game model as you fly to your jump point destination, Jump, then on entering a new system stick the Stardreamer on MAX and 'bing' you are docked again, somewhere (if not dead after the infamous crash-you-into-object bug!). Back to the bulletin board etc. Rinse and repeat.

I certainly found the Stardreamer, if not used and controlled well by myself, added a sort of massive disconnect to the game world for me, much of my game time, maybe 50%, is spent in that blur of max speed Stradreamer mode. And that did leave you feeling less immersed in the world in general.

The trick (and what the Stardreamer should have able to simulate in game as a setting imho) to using the Stardreamer is to use the speed settings progressively. There are 5 speed settings(5 max, 1 low(real time)). I will use approximate AU settings to explain:

Once you are in a new system, say with 12AU to go, set the Stardreamer speed to Max(5).

At 4AU set it to (4).

At 1AU set it to (3).

Between 1AU and less, jump between the (3) and (2) speed setting. What you are aiming for is a smooth gradual approach to your target (a world/space station). You want to experience it gradually getting closer, not whizzing by in a blur and arriving abruptly at dock.

This adds massively to the game immersion, and removes a large part of the 'un-fun' that is due to the disconnect the Stardreamer can introduce to the game flow. It makes the universe seem more real and connected, it really should have been a setting in the options, as running this routine manually each time might be too much for many gamers.

But yes i agree with you that in many ways both Frontier and FFE missed their target of 'perfect' due to various reasons. Overall on balance though, their ambition, as you mentioned, is what really mattered. I'm really hoping that David and FD maintain that drive for ambition in Elite: Dangerous, it sounds like they will be going from what we can find out here on the forums

On death. Death was pretty abrupt in Elite also, maybe you have forgotten the process of getting your wings when you first got the game? I know i died as much as a new Elite player as i did a new Frontier and FFE player. Space IS dangerous, and that has always been part of the charm and attraction of all the Elite games, they never patronize you as a person by shielding you from that danger (as most modern games do now as rote). Long may that tradition continue.

 

[stephen_usher]

I think you have the review spot on.

My background is initially playing on the ZX Spectrum when the Firebird version first came out, but I found the slow frame rate an issue. It wasn't until I started playing the BBC Disc version on the University College London Physics Common Room Beeb using a friend's Tupperware based analogue joystick that I really got into it.

Eventually I managed to become Elite, but not rich.

I first saw FE2 in the local computer game shop playing on an Amiga and the rolling demo blew me away. At the time I had an Atari TT030. Thankfully the Atari ST version ran very well on this even after copying it to the hard disk. The default 60Hz screen refresh rate meant that the game ran slightly faster.

By the time that FFE arrived I had a 486dx2-66 based PC so bought it on the day it was released. Thankfully I had a good Internet connection at work so could download the patches.

Recently I've started playing them again, emulated on my Mac Pro, FE2 via UAE and FFE on Dosbox:

Joystick play never worked well in either FE2 or FFE on the real machines and this poor operation is accurately emulated.

With regards to combat in FE2 and FFE, I found the best method was to turn the engines off, turn to face the laser shots of the attacker and reverse. Slowly rotate until you point just in front of the attacker and continue to do so until (s)he overheats their weapon. You now have a chance to target the ship and fire.

 

[PacalB]

Drew, do us a favour. My reply on your blog page there, remove the 'but...' at the beginning of my post will ya. There is no 'but ...' and its annoying me to keep seeing it. Great artical, thanks.

 

[dannysquid]

Great article. My own experience was playing ELITE to death on a BBC B but only getting to lean over my friends shoulder while they played FRONTIER on their Amiga. I never played it much myself. The controls were very hard to get to grips with, which seems like a bad thing, regardless of realism.

And is the Newtonian flight model more realistic? In a far future filled with space pilots surely designers will have done everything they can to make flight as intuitive as possible, hiding the tricky bits. Advanced, user-friendly fly-by-wire makes more sense to me than everybody needing to be Buzz Aldrin.

 

[SAB380]

I liked Elite but loved Frontier 10x more.
I loved everything about Frontier....even the lack of fun dogfighting.

My young brain just told me that this was a much more realistic space flight model than other games of the time like Wing Commander (which I also loved) and therefore it was awesome.

I'm in that group that returned FFE with my heart broken ...had no way to get patches at that time and no real way to get info on what happened. All I knew (and the game store confirmed) was that the game was completely broken.

 

[X2Eliah]

Interesting article. If that is a fair representation of the games, then..

Well, frankly then those two games sound absolutely dire. I'm not seeing the upsides that make the article conclude in a positive light at all - there's almost nothing to do, nowhere to go to, combat is a joke and all flight is on autopilot/clicking-destinations.. Watching sunsets/sunrises and flying close to spheres... well, that's either 1 minute's work in Blender, or any of the million spacethemed screensavers...

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

Interesting article. If that is a fair representation of the games, then..

Well, frankly then those two games sound absolutely dire. I'm not seeing the upsides that make the article conclude in a positive light at all - there's almost nothing to do, nowhere to go to, combat is a joke and all flight is on autopilot/clicking-destinations.. Watching sunsets/sunrises and flying close to spheres... well, that's either 1 minute's work in Blender, or any of the million space-themed screensavers...

I found FFE to be incredibly immersive from the outset. There really wasn't any game that I'd played before it that could match it for scale or evoking my imagination to the extent it did. But the awe factor wore thin pretty quickly and I tend to agree with your sentiments above. The two things that spoilt it for me were the Newtonian flight physics - something I just couldn't squeeze any enjoyment out of, and the stardreamer which basically turned what should have been a game of journey and adventure into a point and click 30 seconds hop from system to system, station to station. I didn't get the best from traveling and exploring due to that feature. My own fault, I know. I should have used it like Zak Gordon mentions in his excellent post in this thread.

From a personal point of view and with hindsight I think FFE would have been a fantastic experience if it had kept the old Elite control system and the Torus jump-drive feature for interplanetary travel. These are two aspects in Elite: Dangerous I'm desperate for FD to get right.