My thoughts on Odyssey vs Star Citizen. More of an experience than a game. Also add random failures please.

[Stompy]

It's a long one. But I'd really appreciate a read, and to have a conversation about it. I'm all excited about this and needed to get it out...


I'm going to keep this as short as possible because I type a lot when I'm excited, I doubt it's a popular opinion, and it probably won't get read anyway. Comparisons with what Odyssey is known to be promising are mostly omitted for brevity.

I tried Star Citizen (SC) for a while during the recent free period. I'm not going to say much about it, other than how absolutely glorious it was to be IN a starport. And I don't just mean being in the parts that Frontier will design for us to occupy in Odyssey. I mean walking out of an apartment, taking an elevator down to the lobby, hopping on a tram, using a terminal to have my ship prepped, taking another elevator to my designated hangar, and walking out to my ship to climb into the cockpit.

It sounds like I'm being facetious, but I'm really not. I'm one of the probably few people that enjoys the experience of being a starship commander, not the focus of min/maxing everything. When I was new to Elite I would spend quite a bit of time just sitting on a docking pad watching the ships come and go.

I know Odyssey is going to be the main focus pretty soon and I beg you (Frontier) to consider what SC is doing. Yes, their (all of two?) environments are hand-built, not procedural, so of course they can design a massive sprawling city. But the thing is, in Elite we fly over massive sprawling cities all the time, we just don't get to experience them or interact with them. Odyssey will change that of course, but I fear it won't be even close to the extent that SC provides.

For me the main difference between the two is that in Elite I'm always interacting with menus. In SC, I was there, in the starport. I only had to use a menu screen once. It was a good 5 minute trek at least to get from apartment to cockpit, and I enjoyed every moment of it. I loved being able to take off my helmet. I enjoyed eating and drinking (well, the concept of it anyway. I even loved needing to remember to put my helmet back on before stepping through the airlock. Because of course you should have to do that.

Honestly the thing I loved the most was flying out to some little outpost, landing on a pad, hopping out into freezing cold temps, picking up a single package, loading it into the ship, and taking off again. Walking out of the structure into that harsh environment (it's amazing what an impact seeing wind can have on your immersion), seeing my ship sitting there exactly how I landed it (crooked, of course), with the engines still running because I knew I'd only be gone a moment...that was when I truly felt like a pilot. It wasn't just some random piece of open, barely flat ground in the middle of nowhere, with a building next to it, it was a designated landing spot. "This is where you park your ship. Not over there, not over yonder, right here. And this is where it will be when you come back." And I wasn't just flying menus. I had to go pick up the package, and go put it in my ship. It took time. Like it should. I've never understood how in the hell anything can load 300 tons of anything into my ship in a matter of seconds anyway. Obviously this isn't for all situations. BUT, since it would all take so much longer than traditional cargo runs, you could always pay more for it. But it all just FELT so much better. I had a presence. I felt more immersed than just being a head in a cockpit. I wasn't staring at menu screens to do everything. And it was fantastic.

That said, I like pretty much everything about Elite better. (Although using the quantum drive to get to a specific location on the other side of the planet was awesome), BUT, it never gives me that feeling of coming back to the safety and comfort of my ship. Of course Odyssey is supposed to change that. You want it to be a social experience? Great. How about if you build one or two detailed hubs like the one in SC? I could play for hours without earning a single credit GASP and I would be perfectly fine with that. I'd set aside time to make the trek out to one of those places just to experience it. And the concept of a convention? Where manufacturers show off all their ships? Brilliant! It was so cool! I loved walking through the halls looking at all the exhibits.

Veterans realized after a while that there was nothing new to do. (shhhhh don't tell the new players) You have all the ships, you fully engineer them, and there's nothing to spend money on. So then Fleet Carriers came around, designed almost exclusively to give you something to do with all that money (more menus, blech), and guarantee that you needed to keep earning it. I've always been in it for the experience, not the stuff. Personally I'd prefer that upkeep cost a lot more and that I have to make choices between fuel, repair, and reloading, just to be able to afford to keep flying, a la Firefly, etc. I'd much prefer more of an experience than a mechanic to earn useless credits. Please, Frontier. Please give me more of an experience. I'm not hating on you, really. I know it takes an immense amount of work and I respect you for it. I'm very happy with Elite overall, it's just that after seeing what else is possible, I'm really hoping we're not about to get more of the same.

Oh yeah also please introduce random system failures. Being interdicted while waiting to reach your destination in supercruise shouldn't have to be the only interesting thing that ever happens. These ships are complex as hell! How is it that nothing EVER goes wrong on them? (other than autodocking) Haven't you ever played a flight sim with random failures turned on? I've taken to never repairing the damage on my ship just on the off chance something might actually break for once.

Anyway, keep up the great work. It really is great. I mean that. I'm buying Odyssey, no question about it. I just hope it transforms evolves the feeling of being a Commander, or that I've forgotten what playing SC felt like by then.

 

[FlyingBrickyard]

Oh yeah also please introduce random system failures.

Way ahead of you...

 

[Stompy]

LOL!!!! That was a great chuckle, thank you.

 

[Elliot Coleman]

I hate to break it to you, but Elite will never measure up to SC in terms of player experience. SC, once finished (if finished? - I say that as a backer) will be the game by which all future space games are measured.

What FDev have done with Elite is laughable by comparison. Many will say "but you can actually play Elite", and that is valid, at this time. But to expect Odyssey to bring anything more than mile wide, inch deep is a big ask of this developer.

I do so hope to be proven wrong, but if I were a betting man, I'd all but guarantee my predictions are true.

 

[Stompy]

Yeah, I think you’re probably right. I hope you’re wrong, but I’d bet you’re right. It feels like at this point it might be impossible to make fundamental changes. I mean after all this time we are still waiting for meaningful multi crew gameplay and more than one SRV type. I’m excited for Odyssey but I hope it’s not just another method of getting to a bunch of menu screens.

 

[Chrystoph]

Oh yeah also please introduce random system failures.

To what purpose?

 

[varonica]

Oh yeah also please introduce random system failures.

Yeah, like I am going to fly a ship between stars that may randomly fail at any moment? RIght?

While we are at it can we please make my car so it randomly pops all four wheels of every now and then, you know just randomly, just for the fun of it.

Random failure is not an option, after several thousand years building and flying ships they aren't just going to randomly fail. Sure stop working if you don't maintain them, but not just randomly, that makes zero sense. There are ways to increase danger in space and make it more interesting and fun, but just random failures aren't the way to do it, and many things that actually made space travel more dangerous have actually been nerfed due to player demands. Getting stuck between two close orbiting binary stars, gone, ramming into stars because you weren't paying attention, hyperspace de-throttle etc!

There are to many players who want to never face any dangers or problems for this sort of thing to work, and that's a bad thing, I think they should have been ignored but FDEV does what FDEV does, it's their game after all.

 

[Stompy]

What are your suggestions for increasing danger in space and making it more interesting and fun?

 

[Gully Foyle]

No more rebuy.
You die, start over.

 

[Stompy]

Permadeath doesn't change the dynamic of a supercruise flight though. If I've been doing cargo runs for 8 hours straight, the only thing I have to worry about is an interdiction. That's it. Nothing else ever happens. (Side note, the Xbox game Steel Batallion wiped your save if you didn't eject before your mech blew up and you had to start over. Very cool, but that game was purely focused on combat).
During supercruise, Elite is pretty much a flight sim. So I'm thinking back to those days, where you have to pay attention to everything that's going on because one or more of your instruments might be lying to you. Or worse, if something stops working entirely, you have to change what you're doing completely. The ships in Elite get around complete system failures with a reboot and repair. So you'd never be stuck permanently. But, in Earth flight, altitude matters. It's the one constant that actually makes a difference. That doesn't apply to Elite, but it was the only thing I could think of. Especially after watching a lot of Mandalorian and Firely. Stuff should just stop working sometimes. It always does and always will. It doesn't matter how long people have been building something, it always goes wrong eventually. Nothing lasts forever, even in the future. (He said, as if he knew)

But I suppose if a system fails and you're forced to drop out of supercruise to fix it, that's really just an inconvenience and it still isn't interesting gameplay. There's still no real threat, it's not like you're going to lose altitude or that it matters.
What about a minigame to fix the system? haha just kidding nobody wants that.

Oh well, it's not like anything is going to change anyway so it doesn't matter. After reading Elliot's response above and browsing the subreddit for a bit I started having an existential crisis where I realized the only value I was getting out of Elite was flying for a player group to try to influence the BGS in our favor. It gives my gameplay a purpose, and encourages a variety of activity, but in the end it's all still the same gameplay. Maybe trying out Star Citizen was a really bad idea...

Maybe I should become a pirate.

 

[Pat Healy]

Great post. My enjoyment of the game began when I quit minmaxing and started experiencing. All the recent discussion comparing credits per hour between various careers makes me smh. I see no point in a game that works like a job.

To what purpose?

To alleviate boredom and provide a more interesting and lifelike experience. Apollo 13 would have been a pretty boring movie, had the mission been uneventful.

Random failure is not an option, after several thousand years building and flying ships they aren't just going to randomly fail.

This is silly. Mechanical things fail. Always have, always will.

 

[Chrystoph]

To what purpose?

To alleviate boredom and provide a more interesting and lifelike experience. Apollo 13 would have been a pretty boring movie, had the mission been uneventful.

I would like to point out that there is a difference between your request and Apollo 13. You want what the insurance companies refer to as an "Act of God", whereas Apollo 13 occured because of equipment that was not to specification (I list an article below, if you are interested). Challenger was the same way; it didn't just roll a 1 on the d20, equipment was used that was not up to specification.

The only way that I can see your request making sense, and which will cause me to stop playing, is if a mandatory system of routine maintenance were to be implemented. Then, you'd have a reason for failures in skipped work.

We have AFMUs (Automatic Field Maintenance Units) in game, so it is not unreasonable to assume that, if emergency repairs are automated, routine maintenance would be.

All of that said, I have zero interest in playing Elite: Virtual Damage Control Petty Officer. Routine maintenance, while critical to the smooth workings of a ship, is boring to the point of tedium.

https://www.hq.nasa.gov/pao/History/apollo/apo13hist.html - Search for, "What was not known"

 

[varonica]

This is silly. Mechanical things fail. Always have, always will.

Yes they do, but not randomly, never randomly, that's just a basic misunderstanding of the way things work. If you don't maintain something it will eventually fail, like having FSD faults from to much neutron jumping, but stuff that's designed and manufactured properly doesn't just randomly fail otherwise no-one would dare fly in a plane because they would crash for no reason. When you watch the forensic plane crash investigations there is always a reason, always! It's never just random!

 

[Pat Healy]

I would like to point out that there is a difference between your request and Apollo 13. You want what the insurance companies refer to as an "Act of God", whereas Apollo 13 occured because of equipment that was not to specification (I list an article below, if you are interested). Challenger was the same way; it didn't just roll a 1 on the d20, equipment was used that was not up to specification.

Yes they do, but not randomly, never randomly, that's just a basic misunderstanding of the way things work. If you don't maintain something it will eventually fail, like having FSD faults from to much neutron jumping, but stuff that's designed and manufactured properly doesn't just randomly fail otherwise no-one would dare fly in a plane because they would crash for no reason. When you watch the forensic plane crash investigations there is always a reason, always! It's never just random!

I'm not talking about acts of God- I'm talking about mechanical failures that occur due to the imperfections inherent in the systems that design, manufacture, and maintain complex machines. You cannot eliminate failures like "normalization of deviance" (Challenger). You might be able to eliminate that particular risk management failure, but humans will figure out another failure mode (as they did, tragically, with Columbia). You cannot eliminate the improperly maintained jackscrew or the autopilot software design failure. Great QA and process control can minimize failures, but never eliminate them.

And the failures above happened within a sample size that's tiny compared to the number of takeoffs, flights, and landings that happen in the ED universe every day. I'd hate to see the survival rate of our astronauts and cosmonauts applied on that scale. Of course we'll get much better at spaceflight in a couple thousand more years, and I'll bet one day it will be as safe as air travel is now.

Which means you'll have a few failures. No, not random. But inevitable. I like the idea simply because it could add some unpredictability to a very predictable game.

The only way that I can see your request making sense, and which will cause me to stop playing, is if a mandatory system of routine maintenance were to be implemented. Then, you'd have a reason for failures in skipped work.

100% agree that I'd never put up with mandatory maintenance. But you could still have a failure because the starport mechanic didn't properly tighten the cahootenvalve or whatever on your FSD.

 

[varonica]

I'm not talking about acts of God- I'm talking about mechanical failures that occur due to the imperfections inherent in the systems that design, manufacture, and maintain complex machines.

That's why you "fix" everything when you visit stations, the "fix everything" button, you know the one that repairs everything and makes it like new, and no you aren't talking about acts of god because god doesn't exist fortunately, but what you are talking about is "random" which is much worse because it's entirely unpredictable. Random can occur any time, I could land at a station, do full repair and refuel, fly out through the letterbox and 2 seconds later something could "randomly" break, because random is random and entirely unpredictable.

Things break if you don't take the time to maintain them, if you don't service them according to the regular service schedule or you use them beyond their design lifespan, none of these things should happen if you maintain your ship properly, random failure isn't something that happens, there's always a reason for a failure even if it's pilot just carelessness. As for mechanical failures "due to the imperfections inherent in the systems that etc", not going to happen, if it's found that something is inherently imperfect and fails at unpredictable and random time it's simply discarded as a part of a complex machine and replaced with something that isn't inherently imperfect and that doesn't fail randomly.

You had better keep your random because that's not how things work!

 

[Eluna Ai]

Oh boy, thingys about how games feel is mostly important n that's so sweet.. But i've feeling that devs even do not read it.

 

[Chrystoph]

No more rebuy.
You die, start over.

You can do this now. It is an OPTION.

Inflicting on everyone would not be well received.

 

[Pat Healy]

Things break if you don't take the time to maintain them, if you don't service them according to the regular service schedule or you use them beyond their design lifespan, none of these things should happen if you maintain your ship properly, random failure isn't something that happens, there's always a reason for a failure even if it's pilot just carelessness. As for mechanical failures "due to the imperfections inherent in the systems that etc", not going to happen, if it's found that something is inherently imperfect and fails at unpredictable and random time it's simply discarded as a part of a complex machine and replaced with something that isn't inherently imperfect and that doesn't fail randomly.

You had better keep your random because that's not how things work!

It's precisely how things work in reality, meaning real-world failure mode analysis, where failures of complex human/machine systems happen all the time. I listed 4 examples that you chose to ignore. Do I really need to convince you of this? This is transparently self-evident stuff. I feel like I'm trying to convince someone that the sky is blue. I don't think there's a foundation for further discussion here. Fly safe.

 

[Chrystoph]

You put forth four examples that were not the sphere of RNGesus; it is an apples and oranges comparison.

The game shouldn't have a d20 hanging over your head, waiting to roll a 1.

 

[FlyingBrickyard]

Yes they do, but not randomly, never randomly, that's just a basic misunderstanding of the way things work. If you don't maintain something it will eventually fail, like having FSD faults from to much neutron jumping, but stuff that's designed and manufactured properly doesn't just randomly fail otherwise no-one would dare fly in a plane because they would crash for no reason. When you watch the forensic plane crash investigations there is always a reason, always! It's never just random!

I've experienced a gyro failure in flight, within the service lifespan of the instrument in question. Shouldn't have happened, but it did. All the maintenance was current, the mechanic was qualified and competent, and all the paperwork was in order. Could have been any number of reasons for it, but regardless, it keeled over (literally) about a dozen hours before it was due to be serviced.

That said, by the 34th century I'd expect critical systems to be sufficiently reliable and hardened that failures never happen as a practical matter. If they were in game now and set with a MTBF of 3 million hours, it's almost certain at this point there would still be no one who has seen one. Even at a third of that, any given person would probably never see one in their lifetime.

I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea, but in a world of "repair all" buttons and AFMUs, I'm not sure what it'd really add to the overall experience. It'd be a momentary distraction on the likely once in a lifetime occurrence.

In short, I don't think Elite is sufficiently 'hard core' as a sim to really support this game mechanic. Stuff happens in black boxes, and it either works 100% or it doesn't, even when sufficiently worn to the point of failing in 9 attempts out of 10. That 1 time it does though, it works flawlessly.