My thoughts on the many complaints a lot of players have: Part 1

Warning: Wall of text ahead.

As I read through the forums (and I read a lot), I can’t help but notice the constant complaints, harsh words and exasperated comments of many in the community for one reason or another. In this post, I simply intend to share my opinion on some of these complaints. Don’t get me wrong: a lot of these complaints are legitimate and I even agree with a lot of these.

The first complaint, and this one, I find almost offensive, is the “why should I have to pay for an expansion the same price I pay for the full game?” I’ve even seen claims that “expansions should be free!”

Before I lay out my opinion on this, a little bit of a background on myself. I own my own business. It’s a small company with about 10 employees, but nonetheless, I have many, many expenses to consider. Employee salaries, licensing (you need licenses to, you know, run a company), fees and taxes payable to the government, cost of maintaining the building the company resides in (mortgage or rent), and a plethora of other costs that must be covered by the business operations or, the business simply would have to close.

All companies are the same. A game programmer in the UK makes, on average $40,000 Euros (give or take). Let’s assume that in all, Frontier has 10 employees that make, more or less, this amount per year (might have more employees). That would bring the yearly expense to about $400,000 euros. This money won’t grow on trees or come out of thin air. It has to be made somewhere.

Now let’s take into account that Frontier has chosen to fund Elite Dangerous solely through expansions and certain in-game items. It is worth noting that these items you can buy in game are not game breaking, you can’t just spend money to overcome other players (as we have seen in many so-called free to play games). So there is no unfair advantage to any player here no matter how much they spend in the store.

Frontier does not charge a monthly subscription fee. You buy the game, you get to play it indefinitely. You buy an expansion, you get to play it indefinitely.
In comparison, let’s look at other games that, while unrelated, serve for the purpose of this post. It is no secret that companies such as Blizzard, Electronic Arts, SquareEnix and other are multimillion companies that have the resources to assign huge teams to each one of their games. Teams whose sole purpose is to maintain a specific game they are assigned to.

These companies charge for the game initially. Charge a monthly subscription fee (Blizzard literally has millions of collars coming into their account every single month. And on top of that, when they release an expansion they also charge for it. Can these companies afford to have these games subscription free, and just charge for expansions? You bet your rear they can. Can they afford to charge a subscription fee, but offer expansions for free? You bet your rear they can. Do they do so? NO. The only driving force here is money, and nothing else. They will milk everything and everyone they can for as long as they can.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, Frontier isn't anywhere close to these huge companies money-wise. The fact that they had to fund Elite through a kick starter should be enough proof of this, they simply do not have the resources to develop Elite out of their own pockets. And the same goes for creating and releasing future content for such a game: they have to make the money somewhere, or Elite Dangerous would then have to shut down eventually.

They also do not have the resources to have a huge team working only on Elite. I don’t know what their team size is, but I am sure that it’s nowhere near the 300-500 team members that big companies can assign to their games. As such, it will take Frontier longer than other companies to develop, fix and correct game issues.

My point being: To those that complain about these things (referring specifically to the subject of this post) be a little considerate and take into account all the things that you do have and should appreciate. If you really don’t want to pay for the hard work of others, then, you should play some free to play game, of which there are plenty.

Beware of those games’ pay-to-win mentality, though.

This concludes Part 1 of my post. Opinions?

(You can read part 2 here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=211369 )
 
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Fella, I don't particularly care about the economics of the thing. All I know is: I have never ever played a game in which the player-base is so close to the developers. Or one where the developers are so clearly interested for reasons (as far as it seems to me) other than mere cash, in the ideas and feedback of said player-base.

From where I sit, even if I am in fact wrong, what I get from Frontier is the impression that mostly, they are in it for the love of the game. Sure lots doesn't work quite right. Honestly? I don't care. Not least because everything gets reported and everything will eventually (I have no doubt) get fixed. Even the BGS.

I don't need convincing. I'm on-board for the long haul. Long live E: D, Long live Frontier. To the genuine nay-sayers - go play Fallout or something and leave me and my like-minded brothers-and-sisters-in-space ALONE.

Right On Commanders o7

P.S. If anybody from Frontier is reading this and wants me to subscribe 20 quid or so a month then you know where I am. I haven't played anything else since I got this, and don't expect I ever will....
 
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Warning: Wall of text ahead.
As I read through the forums (and I read a lot), I can’t help but notice the constant complaints, harsh words and exasperated comments of many in the community for one reason or another. In this post, I simply intend to share my opinion on some of these complaints. Don’t get me wrong: a lot of these complaints are legitimate and I even agree with a lot of these.

The first complaint, and this one, I find almost offensive, is the “why should I have to pay for an expansion the same price I pay for the full game?” I’ve even seen claims that “expansions should be free!”

Before I lay out my opinion on this, a little bit of a background on myself. I own my own business. It’s a small company with about 10 employees, but nonetheless, I have many, many expenses to consider. Employee salaries, licensing (you need licenses to, you know, run a company), fees and taxes payable to the government, cost of maintaining the building the company resides in (mortgage or rent), and a plethora of other costs that must be covered by the business operations or, the business simply would have to close.

All companies are the same. A game programmer in the UK makes, on average $40,000 Euros (give or take). Let’s assume that in all, Frontier has 10 employees that make, more or less, this amount per year (might have more employees). That would bring the yearly expense to about $400,000 euros. This money won’t grow on trees or come out of thin air. It has to be made somewhere.

Now let’s take into account that Frontier has chosen to fund Elite Dangerous solely through expansions and certain in-game items. It is worth noting that these items you can buy in game are not game breaking, you can’t just spend money to overcome other players (as we have seen in many so-called free to play games). So there is no unfair advantage to any player here no matter how much they spend in the store.

Frontier does not charge a monthly subscription fee. You buy the game, you get to play it indefinitely. You buy an expansion, you get to play it indefinitely.
In comparison, let’s look at other games that, while unrelated, serve for the purpose of this post. It is no secret that companies such as Blizzard, Electronic Arts, SquareEnix and other are multimillion companies that have the resources to assign huge teams to each one of their games. Teams whose sole purpose is to maintain a specific game they are assigned to.

These companies charge for the game initially. Charge a monthly subscription fee (Blizzard literally has millions of collars coming into their account every single month. And on top of that, when they release an expansion they also charge for it. Can these companies afford to have these games subscription free, and just charge for expansions? You bet your rear they can. Can they afford to charge a subscription fee, but offer expansions for free? You bet your rear they can. Do they do so? NO. The only driving force here is money, and nothing else. They will milk everything and everyone they can for as long as they can.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, Frontier isn't anywhere close to these huge companies money-wise. The fact that they had to fund Elite through a kick starter should be enough proof of this, they simply do not have the resources to develop Elite out of their own pockets. And the same goes for creating and releasing future content for such a game: they have to make the money somewhere, or Elite Dangerous would then have to shut down eventually.

They also do not have the resources to have a huge team working only on Elite. I don’t know what their team size is, but I am sure that it’s nowhere near the 300-500 team members that big companies can assign to their games. As such, it will take Frontier longer than other companies to develop, fix and correct game issues.

My point being: To those that complain about these things (referring specifically to the subject of this post) be a little considerate and take into account all the things that you do have and should appreciate. If you really don’t want to pay for the hard work of others, then, you should play some free to play game, of which there are plenty.

Beware of those games’ pay-to-win mentality, though.
This concludes Part 1 of my post. Opinions?
I am a serial complainer on these forums. One thing I do not complain about is FD being moneygrabbing blaggards. There are better in the industry but they are also lots poorer and are having difficulty producing their game Good Example - but there are so many worse - examples not included. FD are up there with the good guys on this.
Nicely put, OP.
 
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A very valid but balanced post (IMHO) +rep

There are many problems, bugs, missing features, cranky mechanics, etc etc that all require the attention of a finite development resource, it's a question of priorities, and sadly sometimes the priority FD assigns to something might not be the same as yours or mine - sometimes people need to grow some and deal with it.

However, that isn't to say the FD should be above criticism - far from it - but it must be constructive criticism, taken in the context of the points the OP highlighted, otherwise it just comes across as whining or demanding. When the community has 'asked nicely' FD have certainly demonstrated they are willing and able to listen to valid criticism and feedback, witness Supercruise, the recent changes to the planetary POI mechanism, etc.
 
It seems like basic capitalism to me.

You want a product that someone sells, you purchase the product. Expecting a developer to produce more content for free is just silly.

I wonder if I go to mcdonalds and buy a burger... if I can then visit the same mcdonalds a week later and request a free drink, fries, and box of nuggets because of my previous purchase.... hmmm.
 
Warning:
They also do not have the resources to have a huge team working only on Elite. I don’t know what their team size is, but I am sure that it’s nowhere near the 300-500 team members that big companies can assign to their games. As such, it will take Frontier longer than other companies to develop, fix and correct game issues.


Blizzard has more artists working on WoW alone(no other games included) than FD has staff total for both games they are working on.
 
One thing I thought I'd add as well is every year EA or whoever brings out practically the same game with a little tweak here and there, an update to reflect the year etc and people pay full price for it and don't complain.

I didn't buy the lifetime pass because I don't like playing in beta, which means with the £10 loyalty they give hopefully each year I will spend more only if we hit season 5- but I don't care and I will continue to spend on this game if it continues to grow like it is now.
 
One thing I thought I'd add as well is every year EA or whoever brings out practically the same game with a little tweak here and there, an update to reflect the year etc and people pay full price for it and don't complain.

I didn't buy the lifetime pass because I don't like playing in beta, which means with the £10 loyalty they give hopefully each year I will spend more only if we hit season 5- but I don't care and I will continue to spend on this game if it continues to grow like it is now.

Don't even get me started on that (Ahem! BF Hardline, among many). Personally, I believe that given the resources at hand, and the limited manpower, Frontier has done pretty well. I won't say they've done perfectly, but they've done well considering the circumstances.
 
Fella, I don't particularly care about the economics of the thing. All I know is: I have never ever played a game in which the player-base is so close to the developers. Or one where the developers are so clearly interested for reasons (as far as it seems to me) other than mere cash, in the ideas and feedback of said player-base.

From where I sit, even if I am in fact wrong, what I get from Frontier is the impression that mostly, they are in it for the love of the game. Sure lots doesn't work quite right. Honestly? I don't care. Not least because everything gets reported and everything will eventually (I have no doubt) get fixed. Even the BGS.

I don't need convincing. I'm on-board for the long haul. Long live E: D, Long live Frontier. To the genuine nay-sayers - go play Fallout or something and leave me and my like-minded brothers-and-sisters-in-space ALONE.

Right On Commanders o7

P.S. If anybody from Frontier is reading this and wants me to subscribe 20 quid or so a month then you know where I am. I haven't played anything else since I got this, and don't expect I ever will....

I second that emotion (well, not really an emotion but - sounds better to a certain age group ) and would gladly pay £20 a month to play this game if it was needed and I wouldn't expect special treatment or a unique ship (well, come to think of it, hmmm.) just that FD keep doing what they are doing. This game is not one for the instant gratification crew that seems to be the norm today. Be patient, enjoy the game - get lost 2000 light years (if you could get your head round this, you would understand my point) from home and explore places no one has ever been before.

If you don't want to, that's fine just stop creating negativity for others is all I ask (futile, I know as people are essentially self-obsessed) oh and if you can tell me anything else that will give you this much joy over a year for the miserly sum of £120 (what I have spent so far, I spend more on shopping in a week for goodness sake), then please let me in on it too.

Fly safe commanders.
 
.... would gladly pay £20 a month to play this game...

Yeah... uh... not me. Maybe if FD hosted a server, didnt reply on P2P (that I am told can be easily blocked with router settings) for connections to other players, and could provide a single shard style MMO verse I would gladly pay the money. As it is, its a great game, but if I am gonna pay MMO rates, I dont wanna be playing a single player game while doing that.
 
Yeah... uh... not me. Maybe if FD hosted a server, didnt reply on P2P (that I am told can be easily blocked with router settings) for connections to other players, and could provide a single shard style MMO verse I would gladly pay the money. As it is, its a great game, but if I am gonna pay MMO rates, I dont wanna be playing a single player game while doing that.

I agree with this. FD does not host a server, so it would be unacceptable for them to attempt to charge a monthly subscription fee. My example was merely for comparative purposes.

However, there are certain games that rely on p2p and while they don't charge a subscriptions, their markets are full of items that completely unbalance the game. AKA pay to win. FD could've done this, yet they did not.
 
All companies are the same. A game programmer in the UK makes, on average $40,000 Euros (give or take). Let’s assume that in all, Frontier has 10 employees that make, more or less, this amount per year (might have more employees). That would bring the yearly expense to about $400,000 euros. This money won’t grow on trees or come out of thin air. It has to be made somewhere.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, Frontier isn't anywhere close to these huge companies money-wise. The fact that they had to fund Elite through a kick starter should be enough proof of this, they simply do not have the resources to develop Elite out of their own pockets. And the same goes for creating and releasing future content for such a game: they have to make the money somewhere, or Elite Dangerous would then have to shut down eventually.

Google is so popular and easy to use, yet noone seems to us it to get some facts straight, instead of making wild assumptions.

2014-2015 frontier had 273 employees earning a total of 12.832.000 GBP / 17.664.000 EUR what is about 5392 EUR / month / employee.
Obviously some earn more and some less, while the 3 highest directors earn 21.000 EUR / month each.

Elite Dangerous was sold 825.000 times what is about 22.000.000 EUR.

You can read the rest yourself.
It's all in their annual report 2015 openly accessible: http://frontier.co.uk/docs/files/Frontier Developments Annual Report 2015.pdf

I just want to get the facts straight for ppl who think frontier is a company in some garage, barely making some money while their only intention is making a dream for us come true.
 
Google is so popular and easy to use, yet noone seems to us it to get some facts straight, instead of making wild assumptions.

2014-2015 frontier had 273 employees earning a total of 12.832.000 GBP / 17.664.000 EUR what is about 5392 EUR / month / employee.
Obviously some earn more and some less, while the 3 highest directors earn 21.000 EUR / month each.

Elite Dangerous was sold 825.000 times what is about 22.000.000 EUR.

You can read the rest yourself.
It's all in their annual report 2015 openly accessible: http://frontier.co.uk/docs/files/Frontier Developments Annual Report 2015.pdf

I just want to get the facts straight for ppl who think frontier is a company in some garage, barely making some money while their only intention is making a dream for us come true.

You make some valid points, but here are some of my own. Frontier is not a company out of some garage, but compared to certain other companies, they aren't even close to being a "big" company.

Since you offered some data, here is some data of my own to support my post, which is basically a comparison of Frontier and certain other companies.

Activision/Blizzard

2014 Net revenue (note, this is AFTER losses are taken into account) - 4,410,000,000 USD (that's right, 4.41 billion dollars)
Employees - 6690
That's about - $54932.72 / employee / month

Back to my initial point: Can these companies afford to sell games and offer them subscription free? Yes. Yet, they don't.
Can they afford to sell a game, charge a subscription, and offer expansions for free? Yes. Yet, they don't.

So, my initial point was, all the people complaining that Horizons and expansions should be free and blah blah... Seriously, nobody works for free.

Frontier is not some company out of a garage, but for a company of their size, compared to other "giants", I think they are doing pretty well on how they sell or market Elite.

As I said in my first post, I run my own business. It's a small company with about 10 employees. I can give you a small estimate, my expenses at the end of the year (salaries, merchandise, mortgage, bills, etc etc) are about $600-700,000 USD. And I dont even have to deal with licensing requirements, legal requirements, and all the copyright/laws that a game creator company has to deal with.

Do I make money at the end of the year? Of course. Does Frontier make money at the end of the year? Of course.

But if my expenses on a small business are as stated, figure out how much does Frontier need to do to not go bankrupt.

And don't fool yourselves, asides from being bigger and having more employees, a company like Blizzard has about the same requirements to deal with as Frontier. They are in the same market, after all.

At the end of the day, everyone wants to make money (nobody will work for free), but certain companies are a lot more cutthroat about it than others. Back to the initial idea: asking to have work performed for free, as many people have (hell, so many people, I've seen countless posts of "if I paid for the game, why should I have to pay for expansions?") asking to have someone work for you for free is just outright silly.
 
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You guys are hurting my hangover. Much numbers. Many hurt.

All too often, truth gets covered up by numbers and statistics. You can find stats to prove any point that wish.

The point here is that FD, like most other companies, is a for-profit entity. The development of an add on takes time, money, and substantial effort. The expectation of any business to provide goods and services for free is simply hilarious.
 
Frontier has caved to a vocal minorities in a few cases and that reinforced the "If I'm loud enough, I'll get my way" logic.

Others have agendas or issues they want to promote / denigrate, personal axes to grind, while others shore up poorly structured arguments with over the top dramatic statements.

Welcome to the Internet.
 
Agreed, well written. Having read the top post on Reddit this was oasis like. Warning, it's hell in there!
 
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