New Crime & Punishment Will Be Broken If You Fly with CRIMES OFF

[sollisb]

Even if the attacker was intent on killing you, how can you then jump to the conclusion that your only reasonable defence is to kill them first? You can't, because it isn't true (it isn't reasonable in the slightest).

I'll stick with Military Law, it's what I studied and enforced. Person A shoots at Person B. Defendant B shoots back at Person A, killing them.

Person A has utilised lethal force. The defense for Defendant B would be 'defence of life' = Righteous.

Obviously this is a [game], but it would appear for all intents and purposes that 'real life' analogies are used, and enforced. Therefore, aligning the C&P with [typical] rules of engagement would also be righteous.

The school of thought that says [crimes on/off] has any bearing on this is misplaced at best and farcical at worst. A crime is/has being/been committed. To assuage that school of thought one then has to make the fundamental leap that 'unless the crime is reported as it is happening, it is not a crime'. This is just stupid.

Report Crimes On/Off, is there to simply state whether I want the federales to help me or not.

I can assure you, in my time overseas, if I was shot at, I shot back, with intent to kill. There is no room for 'oh lets just wound them', or 'lets wait for the police' in situations where it's your life or theirs.

Sorry that's real life. All the armchair heroes can say what they like.

 

[Aashenfox]

I'll stick with Military Law, it's what I studied and enforced. Person A shoots at Person B. Defendant B shoots back at Person A, killing them.

Person A has utilised lethal force. The defense for Defendant B would be 'defence of life' = Righteous.

Obviously this is a [game], but it would appear for all intents and purposes that 'real life' analogies are used, and enforced. Therefore, aligning the C&P with [typical] rules of engagement would also be righteous.

The school of thought that says [crimes on/off] has any bearing on this is misplaced at best and farcical at worst. A crime is/has being/been committed. To assuage that school of thought one then has to make the fundamental leap that 'unless the crime is reported as it is happening, it is not a crime'. This is just stupid.

Report Crimes On/Off, is there to simply state whether I want the federales to help me or not.

I can assure you, in my time overseas, if I was shot at, I shot back, with intent to kill. There is no room for 'oh lets just wound them', or 'lets wait for the police' in situations where it's your life or theirs.

Sorry that's real life. All the armchair heroes can say what they like.

Hallelujah, someone who has lived it and can speak from actual military training and law, which is by far the most relevant in Elite, it's a militaristic setting.

Thanks for speaking up, have some rep for being a credible source of common sense.

 

[Schmack]

The police have to find out that there's something to be investigated, which might include them simply stumbling upon some evidence something is up.

In which case a report is filed.

Yes, that's how it works. I know that. I don't see why people seem to think it's fine how it works though. He's not claimed that he expects completely the opposite treatment. From a gameplay perspective is the current mechanic, where you can be clean and retaliate in self-defence and get a bounty, a good or bad one? Knowing this situation would you design it like that (issues with wings notwithstanding), and if so, why?

You don't have to fly with RCAM off. It really is that simple.

Hallelujah, someone who has lived it and can speak from actual military training and law, which is by far the most relevant in Elite, it's a militaristic setting.

Thanks for speaking up, have some rep for being a credible source of common sense.

Defense to prosecution isn't the same as a non report.

Until this game gains a grand jury, defense to prosecution will not be part of it. You're either wanted or you aren't. We aren't talking about the real world.

 

[Nightshady]

Yeh, let's check here, OP gets griefed using a loophole, gets killed AND fined, and yeh, it's not about griefing, ok mate, see you in the next thread. Thanks for your participation.

I didn't get killed. I killed both my attackers while 5 cops were shooting at me. My complaint isn't even that the cops were there. My complaint is that because I became WANTED for defending myself, I had to pay a 10M fine the next time I died.

 

[Nightshady]

You keep using that word 'victim' - Nightshady wasn't a victim. This is an Appeal to Emotion fallacy.

I was a victim. I lost 10M credits for destroying my would-be killers.

Working as intended as far as I can tell.

There are two main reasons to turn Report Crimes off:
- You are engaging in competitive PvP against others who also have it turned off.
- You don't want Security to turn up because you are engaged in illegal activities.

In both cases, it's turned off because you do not want legal protection. Do so at your own risk or turn it on.

And then there's the actual reason I use CRIMES OFF... I don't want the cops coming in and tilting the odds in my favor. If I kill another PvP'er in random combat, and the cops helped me, that's not an honorable win.

 

[Nightshady]

I read through the fist few pages. I think that Report Crimes should be modified to just prevent a NPC response, but it shouldn't exclude system status changes. So in your case they should have still been WANTED if they broke a system law, but your ship would have not sent a request for assistance and you would be free to fight or free as you want. Report Crimes should be considered more of a NPC Help Request. I think it's worth a developer look. You situation doesn't seem like it's good for the game. It's more gaming the system.

I have a feeling your situation isn't the developer intended use. But at the same time, with the changes you can't just play the way you used to. I learned some more about the system with this thread.

Yes, I agree with you. I just don't want the cops assisting me when I'm CLEAN and my attackers are WANTED. That's it.

 

[Riverside]

I didn't get killed. I killed both my attackers while 5 cops were shooting at me. My complaint isn't even that the cops were there. My complaint is that because I became WANTED for defending myself, I had to pay a 10M fine the next time I died.

Nightshady, you got griefed & you want the game changed so that can't happen again. This thread is functionally no different to any other thread complaining about getting griefed.

Several of us have tried to help find workable solutions for you, just as we would for any other aggrieved party but just like those other threads, probably nothing will change. Maybe it will, probably not.

Learn from this experience that whoever told you (and others) to fly with report crimes off was trolling you (and others). You only do it when you're wanted. Play the game by the rules that are in place, and try to use those rules to your advantage.

Try to change the rules by all means (and I will help you if I can, as will others) but until they do change (if they do), learn from this experience.

And the next time someone complains about being griefed, remember it doesn't only happen to 'PvE' players.

 

[Bortas]

Yes, I agree with you. I just don't want the cops assisting me when I'm CLEAN and my attackers are WANTED. That's it.

But that's exactly as it is... if you are clean and your attackers are wanted... you can shoot them all day while having report crimes off... cops won't come.

Unfortunately they were clean in your actual case, so shooting them is a crime and makes YOU wanted. Rightly so.

 

[John Xenir]

But that's exactly as it is... if you are clean and your attackers are wanted... you can shoot them all day while having report crimes off... cops won't come.

Unfortunately they were clean in your actual case, so shooting them is a crime and makes YOU wanted. Rightly so.

You're forgetting he was clean too That changes a lot, doesn't it?

After going through so many pages, and being treated with a different point of view to my own which had the blessing effect of enreaching my own, I say this RCAM crap should be completely scrapped from the game. Doesn't serve any other group's interests than PvP-only crowd, totally not interested in interacting with valid C&P system for their own purpose of being isolated from anything but pew-pew.

It has no place in the game and brings nothing to the table for anyone but said margin of PvP-only people. Who also happen to have entire galaxy of empty systems to shoot at each other, so I just can't see why they should be the exemption from populated systems' law enforcement. RCAM's sole existence interferes with valid C&P system - just get rid of it.

 

[Aashenfox]

Rightly so.

No, not rightly so. Wrongly so. Nothing invalidates the right to defend oneself from personal attack by a peer.

 

[Mohrgan]

No, not rightly so. Wrongly so. Nothing invalidates the right to defend oneself from personal attack by a peer.

Except when you are made of pixels, and originate from a video game. There are no natural rights in a video game, you are at the mercy of the rules of the game.

In-game = Not real. In-real-life = Real. Learn the difference between the two.

 

[Aashenfox]

Except when you are made of pixels, and originate from a video game. There are no natural rights in a video game, you are at the mercy of the rules of the game.

In-game = Not real. In-real-life = Real. Learn the difference between the two.

Yeh, I have trouble differentiating reality from a video game. You lost this debate, face it, and no amount of snarkiness is going to make you any 'righter'.

 

[Otakiro]

Uh... no. The purpose of the Crime and Punishment system is to punish those that kill people indiscriminately. In this situation, I had every right to return fire. I don't want the cops jumping in when I fight, so I leave CRIMES OFF. I don't want people to be WANTED if they attack me. That doesn't mean in any form or fashion that I should be on the hook for their rebuy if I'm attacked and I kill them. That makes no sense.

They are one simply solution:
When I commit crime at player with RC on I become wanted.
When I commit crime at player with RC off it should automatically switch my CR off.
When I attack wanted player witch CR off I do not commit crime then my CR not change.

 

[Riverside]

They are one simply solution:
When I commit crime at player with RC on I become wanted.
When I commit crime at player with RC off it should automatically switch my CR off.
When I attack wanted player witch CR off I do not commit crime then my CR not change.

There is a suggestions thread here:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/404982-Report-crimes-should-also-report-one-s-own-crimes

IIRC your suggestion was one of the possibilities discussed.

 

[Mohrgan]

They are one simply solution:
When I commit crime at player with RC on I become wanted.
When I commit crime at player with RC off it should automatically switch my CR off.
When I attack wanted player witch CR off I do not commit crime then my CR not change.

Shooting at a Commander with RC off is not a crime. That's what it is for. To allow players to have a friendly duel, with out any legal issues. It is not for asking the Authorities to get involved. There could be an option for that added, but your idea is less than elegant, considering the options available.

 

[Raumfahrer Spiff]

To the point that you want to be able to fight without the interference of police, you can, in Lawless and Anarchy space.

If you are flying in Secured space, you just have to deal with the fact that you either follow their laws or face the consequences.

As far as that legal jurisdiction was concerned, you fired on clean ships, end of story.

As intended, the only times you don't have to worry about whether a crime will stick to you is if you are in anarchy/lawless space, or when you make an arrangement to collectively turn off crimes for a pre arranged fight.

 

[Manticore]

The clue really is in the functions name:

Report Crimes Against Me

Yeah; learning to read might help...... also some meagre sense of logic and rationality.

Another dud thread.

Uh... no. The purpose of the Crime and Punishment system is to punish those that kill people indiscriminately.

Wrong. The system in 3.0 punishes the ship, not the individual with the intention to commit the crime.

Should it "punish those that kill people indiscriminately "?

Yes; possibly it should....

 

[bladebss]

Ok. After struggleing to believe this thread exisits, and after reading several pages..

It seems what the OP wants is a HAZ ReZ button.

'Dissable police responce'

As an alternative to just turn off crimes against me.

In a haz res you get a bounty for your crimes but the fuz never show up to spoil the party.

So who ever shoots the clean cmrd gets wanted and they can fight back without getting a bounty, but no police will show for the crime commited aginst the clean cmdr.

Not a bad idea for a bit of QoL. I wouldnt mind that option, some times i hate when the police show up when im smuggling and i get attacked buy pirates.

But then this may well be the case for it not existing, the price you pay for smuggling is not being able to defend your self if you get attacked, cus ether the police show up or you get a bounty.. and the police show up.

Not shure. I guess its little to loose little to gain.